If You Allow Your Children To Quarrel–You Haven’t Been Forgiven?

Do you ever allow your children to fight or quarrel with each other? If so, this is a sign indicating that you have not yet been forgiven of your sins!

At least, this is what an article in the Ensign claimed a few years ago. This article made my heart cry out in anguish for any Mormon who is struggling to gain forgiveness! Because I spent so many years trying to gain forgiveness, I have a burning desire to share God’s truth with you! I bear my testimony to you that even if you allow your children to fight, your sins have all been forgiven! But, unfortunately, according to LDS Prophets:

“It depends upon you whether or not you are forgiven, and when. It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.”

The question asked in the Ensign article, was “How can I know if and when I have been forgiven of my sins?” Elder Spencer Condie of the Seventy went to the Book of Mormon to answer this question. True to Mormon teaching, forgiveness depends upon you and your works! According to LDS prophets and scripture, here are the signs that indicate if and when your sins have been forgiven:

You will not:
1) allow your children to fight or quarrel one with another; or
2) have a mind to injure one another.
You will:
3) remember your past sins with a peaceful conscience, without any pain and will cease being harrowed up by the memory of them;
4) be filled with joy—always rejoicing;
5) be filled with the love of God;
6) have no room for discouragement, fear, hatred or revenge;
7) look at all sin with abhorrence;
8) forsake all your sins;
9) give of your substance to whoever stands in need, even beggars who have brought their misery upon themselves;
10) feed the hungry;
11) clothe the naked;
12) visit the sick;
13) return whatever you borrow from your neighbor;
14) observe the commandments of God;
15) have no more disposition or desire to do evil, but to do good continually.

Praise the Lord that these are the words of false prophets! If it were not so—none of us could gain forgiveness! Our forgiveness is based upon one fact and one fact alone–Jesus’ death and resurrection!! The truth is that all sins were forgiven over 2,000 years ago when Jesus shed his blood on the cross and paid for the sins of the world. Justice was paid and now, Mercy reigns! Forgiveness was won only because Jesus offered His body as the final sacrifice for sins.

Heavenly Father accepted His offering as full payment for sins. The proof can be seen in the fact that God raised Jesus from the dead! After Christ “offered one sacrifice for sins for ever; (He) sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:10-14). Because Christ was raised, we are no longer in our sins (1 Corinthians 15:17). Through faith in His resurrection, we have been forgiven of all trespasses, because Jesus:

blotted “out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross” (Colossians 2:12-14).

God’s true prophets have born witness that it is through faith we receive forgiveness: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins (Acts 10:40-43). LDS prophets claim that forgiveness is gained through your own works—your obedience to God’s commands. Do you believe that you can gain forgiveness through the LDS process of Repentance? Then make sure you carefully follow all their words. Study the words from this Ensign article and the Book of Mormon, then read through my page “The LDS Process of Repentance”. If you follow their words only half heartedly or aren’t honest with yourself in your ability to follow their words, you will never come to the knowledge that the LDS Process of Repentance is impossible! These words are false! You cannot gain forgiveness through your works. The work of forgiveness has already been gained–you receive it when you believe it.

My life is devoted to “Him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Revelation 1:5). To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever!

Additional LDS and Bible References

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33 Comments

  1. catzgalore said,

    April 6, 2009 at 8:16 am

    If Christ died for me, then He will give me the grace to do what I should do for Him. If his forgiveness has been placed in my heart, then I will WANT to serve Him.
    I am thinking about what you quoted:

    3) remember your past sins with a peaceful conscience, without any pain and will cease being harrowed up by the memory of them; 4) be filled with joy—ALWAYS rejoicing; 5) be filled with the love of God; 6) have no room for discouragement, fear, hatred or revenge;

    This sounds like heaven to me. I still continue to be human. I do get scared sometimes, because I start thinking that if I was REALLY saved then these things would be automatic. They are not, at least in my experience. I still have pain from past sins, because I am still facing their consequences. And am I ALWAYS filled with joy? No. Am I filled with the love of GOD? YES!! Do I get discouraged? YES. Does it mean God doesn’t love me? NO, by His grace.

    I pray for my son, his wife and family that God would pull them out of the snares. Also for those in similar situations.

  2. shematwater said,

    April 8, 2009 at 9:12 am

    The truly sad thing is that all this is possible, and I have seen it. I have seen it in my family and friends. I have felt it in my life. I know those who have done all these things and have received this forgiveness. They no longer feel the pain of past sins, even though the consequences still follow. They have a constant joy in their heart, as I have. They are filled with the love of God. They do all things that were listed in this post.
    My parents are the greatest example I know. With my oldest children they forbade them from name calling, would punish them if they called each other stupid, or a fool, or any other negative name. There was peace in that house, for how can one stay mad when all you can call each other is hamberger and frenchfry.
    I have taken this example in my life, and I guard my tongue. Whenever I find myself getting angry and about to use these words I stop myself, remind myself that I must not say such things, and the anger leaves almost instantly.

    There are others who have gone through this process, done all that was required of them, and can now honestly say they feel no pain from past sins and that they look on each day with joy.

    I pray to God that he will lend me his strength that I may do what he requires of me, but if I do not even try how can I hope to gain hive favor?

  3. shematwater said,

    April 8, 2009 at 9:13 am

    By the way, what was the name of this article that is discussed here.

  4. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 8, 2009 at 1:24 pm

    Shem,

    At the end of the post it says “Additional LDS and Bible References“. If you click on that, you will find the article as well as a link to it at lds.org.

  5. catzgalore said,

    April 9, 2009 at 8:25 am

    I would be filled with joy too if my life was going that way all the time. I’m getting there. I think the point is we do these things because we love the Lord and appreciate the price that was paid, NOT to earn our way into heaven. What I see in my kids doing these things is they are most concerned with being in heaven AS A FAMILY– what would happen if just ONE wasn’t good enough? How would the others rejoice in the Lord forever if part of their family wasn’t there? My daughter in law’s sister is getting married. I heard her ask her dad, “did you get permission to have ___ sealed?” THAT is her focus, getting everybody ready. I am looking forward to being in the presence of the LORD– and His glory is so great I don’t think anything else will matter.

    I’m trying to learn about the LDS religion because I want to understand. But what I’ve been reading gets stranger to me every day. I see a lot of good things, true. I remember Mormon families growing up, and being jealous of what they had. But now that I am more intimately involved with a Mormon family, I see this underlying fear. I think somehow they know they aren’t “good enough” but still strive to be and think it will be counted as righteousness. I pray that God would use me every day but it isn’t because I am trying to earn my way, it’s because I love God and want to be in His will.
    So it isn’t quitting trying to do what is required, it is quitting believing that MY GOOD WORKS will get me to heaven. It is JESUS’ good works that get me there.

  6. shematwater said,

    April 9, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    I agree that the best motivation to do all these things is out of love for God the Fatehr. However, if I do them with a different motive I have still done them, and thus I will be rewarded. I do understand that God does also judgeon motive, and the one motive will be rewarded with a greater reward than the other, but both will receive a great reward for doing what was needed.
    Also, we do much of this not only out of love for God, but out of love for all our brothers and sisters that are part of this human family. We keep the commands because we love God, and we help and prepare others because we love them.
    As to your question of what would ahppen if just one did not make it, I would ask you how God feels when just one of his chrildren does not make it. God loves all his children, even Lusifer who became satan. If it were possible God would bring us all back to him. He weeps for everyone who does not come home. Yet his joy is full and he he rejoices in all things. We are to be like him, weeping over those who do not make it, but rejoicing continually.
    As to this underlying fear, I think you are truly detecting more anxiety. We are all anxious. We are anxious to know if we have truly made it. We are anxious to know if our family has made it. Those who are of true faith are anxious to know that their enemies have made. As teh story of Enos tells us in the Book of Mormon. Enos prayed for his sould, and when he was told by God that he was saved, he prayed for his family and his brethren the Nephites. When he got a promise concerning them he prayed for the Lamanites who were his enemies.
    In D&C 131: 5 we are told “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto ceternal life.” It is not that we know we aren’t good enough, but that we want to know we are. Most of us are fairly confident, but to my knowledge few have had this more sure word of prophecy, and we want it. I do believe that all the prophets who have acted as leaders of the people have had this blessing.

  7. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 9, 2009 at 3:23 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    we are told “The more sure word of prophecy means a man’s knowing that he is sealed up unto eternal life.” It is not that we know we aren’t good enough, but that we want to know we are. Most of us are fairly confident, but to my knowledge few have had this more sure word of prophecy, and we want it.

    Every single person who believes in Jesus Christ has the sure word of prophecy that they have eternal life. John the Beloved gave us his sure word of prophecy on this:

    And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.” (1 John 5)

    We have this sure word of prophecy for one reason and one reason only! Not because WE were good enough, but because Jesus was good enough!

  8. shematwater said,

    April 10, 2009 at 12:42 pm

    I would refer you to 2 Peter chapter one. In this chapter he uses the Phrase of the more sure word of prophecy, but he also uses the phrase calling and election made sure.
    In verses 5-7 he tells us “And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.”
    In verse 10 he tells us “Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall.”
    If we have only faith we do not have this knowledge. It is after we add to our faith all these things that we have our calling and election made sure.
    Verse 19 says “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts.”
    Here he speaks of the apostles who were with Christ and who witnessed these things. He tells us that these apostles have this more sure word of prophecy (or their calling and election made sure) and so we do right to look to them for guidance. They have made it and are the light that shineth until the day dawns and Christ (or the day star) arises in their own hearts (or they have their calling and election made sure).
    As to 1 John: In chapter one he tells us that we must be obedient to have this eternal life. Verse 7 says “But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” Believing is not enough, we must also walk with him in the light.
    In verse 9 he tells us “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” If we do not confess our sins our faith will not bring us forgiveness.
    In chapter two verses 9-10 we are told “He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.” Whether we believe or not, our actions and thought will determine if we are saved.
    And in chapter three he gives a very beautiful passage. In verses 20-21 he says “For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.” Here he tells us what Peter has said, and what I have said. If we have some doubt about ourselves we still may gain eternal life, as God knows all things. But we can reach a point where we no longer have doubts, and at this point we have confidence towards God.
    While faith is required, and it is through faith that we gain this knowledge, John in the very epistle you have referenced, tells us that more is required to have that assurance, that confidence, to have the more sure word of prophecy that we know our calling and election is made sure.

  9. catzgalore said,

    April 10, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    Shemawater, you said:
    “However, if I do them with a different motive I have still done them, and thus I will be rewarded. I do understand that God does also judge on motive, and the one motive will be rewarded with a greater reward than the other, but both will receive a great reward for doing what was needed.”

    Matthew 7
    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only those who do the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

    How do you know if you have the “correct” motive?

    Tough stuff, isn’t it? We would spend our whole life wondering if we were good enough, but we have to rest in JESUS’ GIFT; because we could NEVER be good enough on our own. What a wonderful thing to put aside that anxiety, and know that JESUS is good enough and we can spend our lives trying to please Him; not because we are trying to earn His love, but because of it.

  10. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2009 at 1:59 pm

    CATZGALORE

    Those that are talked of in Matthew are those that had the right motive, but the wrong actions. Just suppose that the LDS are right concerning the nature of God. Your motive is still pure and of the best kind, but it is misdirected. Thus your actions, though with proper motive, are in the wrong direction. If you are right the same can be said of the LDS.
    It is like in a football game. If the players is playing his best, and wants to win, but confuses the goals and through the wrong way, he has still scored for the enemy.

    There are only a few basic motives that drive people to obey God. They either do it to avoid some form of punishment, to gain a reward, or because they love God. The last is the greatest of the motives, while the first is lowest, but all three are still good.

  11. osbornekristen said,

    April 11, 2009 at 7:31 pm

    Matthew 7:7-8 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.”

    Shem,
    As, Christians we find our hope for salvation in this verse which simply tells us to ask for Christ’s gift of grace and we will receive it! As for people crying ” Lord, Lord” and Him not knowing them…….I take this to mean folks who try to live a “righteous” life but miss the point. They don’t have a personal relationship with Jesus. They have lived their lives trying to follow the “rules” but they never knew their Savior and asked Him into their hearts. It is all about Jesus…..not about us. Just before Jesus died on the cross he said, “Tetelestai (It is finished!)” He literally meant that our debts have been paid in full!

    Merrill Tenney (Expositor’s Bible Commentary, IX, 185) notes that the verb, Tetelestai, was used in the first and second centuries in the sense of “fulfilling” or “paying” a debt and often appeared in receipts. “It is finished” (Tetelestai) could be interpreted as “Paid in full.” “Paid in full” means that once a thing is paid for, you never have to pay for it again. In fact, “paid in full” means that once a thing is paid for, it is foolish to try to pay for it again. God is offering you salvation free of charge. That’s what Tetelestai means. Jesus paid in full so you wouldn’t have to pay anything. Our salvation has been accomplished solely by the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, who died in our place. Because our debt has been “paid in full” nothing…..no good deeds, no ceremonies, no submission to “rules or regulations” by any church, no effort or works can add in the very least degree to the value of the blood, or to the merit of the finished work of Jesus Christ. As Romans 10:4 puts it, Christ is “the end of the law.”

    God loved you so much that He sent Jesus to pay the complete price for your sins so that one day you can live with Him FOREVER in Heaven! You can take this to the bank! If you have asked Jesus to live in your heart, He has already signed off beside your name in His receipt book…….. Tetelestai…..Paid in Full.

    It is because we love our Defender, Redeemer, Savior…..that we live for Him, love Him and try to honor and please Him. Remembering His Body that was broken for us and His Blood that was shed……… is why we praise Him and desire to live according to His word………not because we have anything more to gain…….but because we are so very thankful that the Cross means Tetelestai…..Paid in Full!

    Galatians 2:20-21 “I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

  12. shematwater said,

    April 15, 2009 at 2:37 pm

    If I asked God if I could see the great pyramid, and then did not get on the plane that was flying to Egypt, will I see the pyramid?
    I like the story of the man in the flood. He asked God to save him, and was told that he would be saved. So, a row boat came along to get him. “No, no,” he said. “I have asked God to save me and he has promised he will.”
    Later a motor boat came, and he said again “No, no,” he said. “I have asked God to save me and he has promised he will.” Finally a helicopter came and he told them the same thing. When he died in the flood and met God he asked in confusion and anger “God, I asked you to save me and you said you would. Why did you let me die?” God shook his head and said “I sent you a row boat, a motor boat, and a helicopter. Why did you not take them?”

    We will receive from God what we ask, but we must be prepared to do what is necessary. Just as the man missed died for not acting on that which would save him when it was offered, we will die spiritually if we do not act on those commandments that he has giving us so that we can be saved.

  13. osbornekristen said,

    April 15, 2009 at 9:16 pm

    Shem,
    Thankfully, I got into the row boat when I was nine years old and asked Jesus to come into my heart to be my Lord and Savior. It seems that according to LDS beliefs, one can’t simply climb aboard the boat that God promises to send. Instead, they must swim and swim and swim with all their might…..hoping that they are good enough swimmers to make it to dry land. The “commandments” DO NOT SAVE. It is the relationship with the only one who perfectly kept them that gives us eternal life with the Lord. I pray that you will choose the boat rather than attempting to impossibly tread water to get to an unreachable shore…..and it is unreachable……unless someone completely rescues you! God has sent you a way to be completely rescued…..Jesus. He knows you can never be a good enough swimmer to make it without Him reaching down and doing a COMPLETE rescue. Climbing in the boat rather than trying to swim doesn’t mean you are choosing not to live for Him. It is accepting that you need to be totally rescued. Then, because He is your rescuer, your hero, you live to please and honor Him with your life! So, jump in the total safety of the boat and spend the rest of your life praising and living for the one who longs to save you just because He loves you!

  14. shematwater said,

    April 16, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    Moses made a brass serpant and raised it on a poll. All who were sick had only to look upon it to be healed. Yet, Moses did not carry the bass serpant around the camp. He planted it at the gate of the Tabernacle, so that all who had faith could rise from their beds, and walked to the tabernacle and be healed. Some required assistance and were carried by friends and family. But those who did not give that little effort were not healed.
    Christ was raised on a poll, and all who come to him are saved. But we must move our spirits so that we come from the darkness and into his light. Just as the Brass serpant remained in one place, and the Isrealites had to work to reach it, so Christ is in one place, and we must strive to reach that same place if we are to be redeemed by him.

    Who has ever been clensed without work? Who has ever been healed without work? There are few who can claim this, even in the Bible. Before every miracle you will find action. Before every blessing you will find a righteous life. If the gifts of God in this life require work on our part, how can we hope to gain the greater gift in the world to come without work.

    Works do not save, I will agree with this. However, neither does faith. They are two parts that must be together for salvation to come. The Law condemns us. If we live only by the law we will be condemned. However, it is possible, through our works, to stand and not be condemned by the law. When this happens we are not condemned, but we are not saved either. Once our works have freed us from the law, then through our faith the grace of God will save us.
    With an understanding that there are many levels in heaven this makes perfect sense. There are those who are condemned by the law and cannot be saved. There are those who are not condemned by the law, but do not except the grace of God. Then there are those who are not condemned by the law and except God’s grace.
    Like with the boats. The boat cannot come into the building, so we must go outside. There are those who remain in the house, and drown. There are those who do the work of getting outside, but than refuse the help that is offered. Then there are those who do the work to get outside and except the help that is offered.

  15. osbornekristen said,

    April 17, 2009 at 4:54 pm

    You wrote, “Who has ever been cleansed without work? Who has ever been healed without work? There are few who can claim this, even in the Bible. Before every miracle you will find action. Before every blessing you will find a righteous life.

    Actually, the Bible is FULL of unrighteous people who were healed:

    Matt. 8:28—Jesus heals 2 demon possessed men who were so violent that no one could go near them…..they cursed him and asked why he was bothering them…..he healed them anyway.

    Luke: 22:50-51—In the Garden of Gethsemane, Jesus heals the soldier’s ear that Peter cut off….even though the undeserving soldier was there to arrest him.

    Acts 9:1-19—Saul, a horrible man who spent his life persecuting believers, is blinded when Jesus “appears” to him. Saul is converted to the faith and becomes Paul, who became a hero to the faith and wrote much of the New Testament……not such a “worthy” apostle.

    Matt. 8:8— 5 When Jesus returned to Capernaum, a Roman officer[b] came and pleaded with him, 6 “Lord, my young servant[c] lies in bed, paralyzed and in terrible pain.” 7 Jesus said, “I will come and heal him.” 8 But the officer said, “Lord, I am not worthy to have you come into my home. Just say the word from where you are, and my servant will be healed. 9 I know this because I am under the authority of my superior officers, and I have authority over my soldiers. I only need to say, ‘Go,’ and they go, or ‘Come,’ and they come. And if I say to my slaves, ‘Do this,’ they do it.” 10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed. Turning to those who were following him, he said, “I tell you the truth, I haven’t seen faith like this in all Israel! 11 And I tell you this, that many Gentiles will come from all over the world—from east and west—and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob at the feast in the Kingdom of Heaven. 12 But many Israelites—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—will be thrown into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the Roman officer, “Go back home. Because you believed, it has happened.” And the young servant was healed that same hour…….A GREAT EXAMPLE OF UNMERITED GRACE!

    Romans 5:6 –the greatest example of a miracle performed for sinners is Jesus’ death on the cross “6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die. 8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

    You note, “There are those who are condemned by the law and cannot be saved.

    Every human can be saved. (Satan and his demons are not humans; they are angels……they have already made their choice……Christ did not die for them.)
    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.—Romans 10:13

    In Him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace.” – Ephesians 1:7

    If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness”- 1 John 1:9

    11But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.—Acts 15:11

    You said, “However, it is possible, through our works, to stand and not be condemned by the law. When this happens we are not condemned, but we are not saved either.

    I’m not sure exactly sure where you have found this statement, but it is not biblical. For, we are ALL condemned by the law! If we weren’t Jesus would not have had to die! No one is perfect…not Mother Teresa, not Billy Graham, and not Joseph Smith (I think shooting 3 men and killing 2 at Carthage Jail might be slightly condemning.)

    The Bible says that in order not to be condemned by the law; one must be perfect….but that no one can be except God (aka Jesus……who is God in essence).

    1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

    Matt. 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

    Matt. 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

    Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousness are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away

  16. shematwater said,

    April 21, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Matt. 8:28—it was the demons that had possessed the men that had caused the violence and cursed God. Thus Christ was, more to the point, punishing devils.

    Luke: 22:50-51—we do not know if this man was wicked, as he was just following orders. However, I did say few, and this could qualify. It is also true that this was done in part for Peter’s benefit, and he was a righteous man.

    Acts 9:1-19—Saul was not a horrible man. If he was God would never have chosen him. Saul was misguided by the traditions of the Elders and needed a little awakening. Even then, to be healed of his blindness he had to travel to the town, and seek out a specific person, thus he did work.

    Matt. 8:8—But the man came. The man sought out Christ. His life may not have been perfect, but he did what he had to in order to find Christ. This is a work on his part to receive this blessing. Would the servant have been healed if the man had never sought out Christ?

    Romans 5:6 –This is not an example of an Earthly blessing. It is the main point of the whole discussion. Yes Christ died for sinners, but we still must work to take part in that redemption.

    You said “Every human can be saved. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.—Romans 10:13”

    Matt 12: 31 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.”
    Mark 3: 29 “But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.”
    Luke 12: 10 “And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.”
    So, in three of the Gospels Christ himself tells us there is one sin (blasphemy against the Holy Ghost) that cannot be forgiven. Would this not indicate that those who commit this crime cannot be saved?

    You said “I’m not sure exactly sure where you have found this statement, but it is not biblical.”
    I get this from 2 Peter chapter one. The entire chapter speaks of it, but specifically the phrases “calling and election made sure” and “the more sure word of prophecy” are what I refer to. Both mean the same thing: To know that the Law cannot condemn you, and that the Grace of Christ will save you.
    Also, Christ does command us to be perfect, so it must be possible.

    You said “I think shooting 3 men and killing 2 at Carthage Jail might be slightly condemning.”
    So what you are saying is that if a man attacks me I do not have the right to defend myself? Self Defense is never condemning, except to the one who forced you to commit such actions.

    You said “The Bible says that in order not to be condemned by the law; one must be perfect….but that no one can be except God ”

    With a proper understanding of things this all becomes very plain. No person is as truly perfect as Christ, as Christ committed no sin at any time in his life. As we have all committed sin at some point we fall short of his glory, we all have sin in our past, and our righteousness can be counted as filthy rags compared to his. However, God will not give a command that we cannot obey (otherwise he is not just). So, when he commands us to be perfect, he means just that, but not in the same way as Christ was. He is not saying that you cannot have any sin in your past, but that you must progress so that there will be no more sin in your future. This is possible, and once we have reached this point we are no longer condemned by the law (we have had our calling and election made sure). We will not all attain this in mortal life, but there are those who have, and will be more who do.

  17. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 22, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Shem,

    You wrote: “Acts 9:1-19—Saul was not a horrible man. If he was God would never have chosen him. Saul was misguided by the traditions of the Elders and needed a little awakening.

    Saul was a horrible man! Just a few chapters later in Acts, we read that Saul imprisoned Christians and beat them in every synagogue. When the Apostle Stephen was stoned to death, he stood by in his official position, watching, and held the clothes of those who were slaying him. This “custom” signified that Saul was the official giving his assent to the killing of Stephen:

    Act 22:19 And I said, Lord, they know that I imprisoned and beat in every synagogue them that believed on thee: 20 And when the blood of thy martyr Stephen was shed, I also was standing by, and consenting unto his death, and kept the raiment of them that slew him.

    Shem, God chose Saul because he was a horrible man! God’s truth is that He chooses those who are not noble, those who are base and despised and those who are weak and foolish! He does this so that “He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

    No one is good but God!!! When someone has been brought to faith, God makes them a new creature. Then, and only then, are they able to do anything that can please God. And, the reason is solely because the Holy Spirit dwells in them. All glory goes to God. All true believers know that they are nothing in themselves. Anything good that comes from man, is actually God dwelling in them.

  18. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 22, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    Shem,

    You wrote: “No person is as truly perfect as Christ, as Christ committed no sin at any time in his life.

    I’m as perfect as Christ! When God looks at me, He sees a perfect and pure person–one without sin!!!

    You wrote: “However, God will not give a command that we cannot obey (otherwise he is not just). So, when he commands us to be perfect, he means just that, but not in the same way as Christ was..”

    Here is Christ’s command, found in Matthew: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

    God is Just. We can fulfill His command to be perfect–and, right now!! When Jesus gave us the command, in Matthew 5:48, who did he tell us we had to be as perfect as? If Jesus did not expect that we could be as perfect as Heavenly Father–in just the same way as Christ did, then why did he tell us to be as perfect as God the Father? He could have commanded us to be as perfect as someone like Moses, or Abraham. The standard of comparison is God!

    You wrote: “He is not saying that you cannot have any sin in your past, but that you must progress so that there will be no more sin in your future.

    Your going to have to show me evidence from the passage to support your words. Nowhere do I see Jesus telling us we have time to progress to perfection. Jesus commanded us to be as perfect as Heavenly Father. be is a present tense verb–meaning be perfect right now. If your Bishop told you you had to be morally clean, does he mean you can progress to be morally clean some day? No, be means right now.

    You wrote: “This is possible, and once we have reached this point we are no longer condemned by the law (we have had our calling and election made sure).

    You can never attain perfection, because you have committed sins in the past. The only way to be forgiven for a sin is by having the blood of a perfect sacrifice shed for your sins. If you believe that Jesus’ blood covers over all your sins, past present and future, then and only then will you be perfect!

    Believe it and then receive it. If you don’t believe it, then you are still in your sins. You are either completely sinless, or completely sinful.

  19. shematwater said,

    April 23, 2009 at 8:32 am

    LATTERDAYSAINTWOMAN

    Speaking of Paul, you have given no evidence that he was a horrible man. He was a Jew, and he believed strongly in that faith. To him the Christians were guilty of Blasphemy, which was punishable by death. He was following his heart, doing what he truly believed was right. When Christ appeared to him and he was shown his error he switched almost instantly to follow Christ. If he was a horrible man (taking pleasure in the pursecution of others, he would not have converted, even after seeing this vision.
    Think of Dathan, and Korah, and Abiram (Numbers 16). These men had witnesssed the miracles of God, and yet they still faught against God’s appointed leaders. They were destroyed. These were base men, wanting power. Saul only wanted to do what was right and put all his effort into that. As I said, he was misguided and needed a little awakening, but he was not a horrible person. No where in the Scriptures is a horrible, evil man ever chosen by God. They may fall after they are chosen, but when they are chosen they are good, righteous men.

    As to perfection, my understanding come from the understanding of that simple word “BE.” As you say, it is present. We are only in the present. Therefore, our past, which wll never again be the present, does not need to be perfect. Our present needs to be perfect, and since our future will become our present, it too needs to be perfect. Therefore, we need to reach a point, or progress, so that we have no sin in our future, reguardless of our past. See how simple and logical it all is. We can become perfect in the present, and thus in the future, and that is what God wants us to do.

    Lastly, if we can only do what God wants after we are brought to the faith, then it follows that having that faith is not what God wants, because that has to come first. We must aquire the faith before we are brought to God. So, God does not want faith, he wants works, and simply having faith is not enough.

  20. catzgalore said,

    April 23, 2009 at 2:51 pm

    It is hard to answer ALL that you say so I will pick a phrase. Sorry if you think it is out of context.

    you said: However, it is possible, through our works, to stand and not be condemned by the law.

    God’s Word says:

    Romans 3:20 (King James Version)

    20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

    Then what does THAT mean?

  21. osbornekristen said,

    April 23, 2009 at 3:03 pm

    Shem,
    I have A LOT more that I want to say in response, but I will write that later when I don’t have a baby on my lap.

    The 911 terrorists were Muslim. They believed in Jihad “striving in the way of Allah.” Their misguided religion teaches that to commit terrorist acts and die for the faith will bring them great honor in the afterlife. They are misguided yes……..were they horrible…..I hope you think they were!!!!!!

    You said that Paul “was a Jew, and he believed strongly in that faith. To him the Christians were guilty of Blasphemy, which was punishable by death. He was following his heart, doing what he truly believed was right.”

    Paul killed Christians because they were going against Jewish law. Just like those terrorists, Paul thought he was doing the right thing to please God. Obviously, he was not. He was a murderer…….a HORRIBLE, HORRIBLE man! Do you know why the men who stoned Stephen lay their garmets at his feet? Acts 7:58-59 say, “And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man’s feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.” This passage is describing the stoners taking off their garmets before they threw the stones, so that the blood and guts that splattered off of Stephen’s body would not get on them……….pretty HORRIBLE if you ask me.

    The terrorists of 911 were doing the same thing. They were striving to please their god and so was Paul. Both were misguided…..both were horrible, wrong and VERY unrighteous! The only difference in Paul and the 911 terrorists is that Paul found the Lord and was saved. The terrorists died without the Lord and are in HELL.

    Shem,
    Jesus died for horrible peopel!! He LOVES horrible people! He saves Horrible people. Romans 5:8 says, “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”

    1 Timothy 1:15 says, “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief!”
    Guess who wrote this……….PAUL! So, even Paul says that he is an unrighteous sinner……actually he says he the “chief” of sinners!

    You said,
    “We must aquire the faith before we are brought to God”

    The Bible says,
    Mark 2:15 “15And it came to pass, that, as Jesus sat at meat in his house, many publicans and sinners sat also together with Jesus and his disciples: for there were many, and they followed him. 16And when the scribes and Pharisees saw him eat with publicans and sinners, they said unto his disciples, How is it that he eateth and drinketh with publicans and sinners? 17When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

    We come to God dirty, broken and full of shame……but He gives us faith and makes us clean!

    Also, Saul did not seek out Annanias the prophet to come and lay his hands on him. ….the Lord did. Saul was just lying blinded in a house that men led him to. He did NOTHING by his own efforts! Annais came to Saul and was even afraid to go because of how evil Saul was. Acts 9:13 “Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: 14And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.”

    You said, “So, God does not want faith, he wants works, and simply having faith is not enough.” Shem, I beg you to read the BIBLE as a LOVE LETTER from your Father who sent his ONLY son to die so that you would not be a slave to your sin! It’s all about LOVE not about RULES. God rescues the sinners. He sets the captives (to sin) free!! I pray that God will work in your heart to reveal truth! Until we are saved and have the Holy Spirit living inside us, we can’t truly live for Him.

  22. shematwater said,

    April 24, 2009 at 12:45 pm

    CATZGALORE

    It means that no man will be allowed into the Celestial glory through his works. He is not justified. However, he is not condemned either. He is on neutral ground. This is why we believe in multiple kingdoms in heaven. The highest for those not condemned by the law and justified by Christ. The middle for those that are neither condemned nor justified. And the lowest for those who are condemned and are not justified.

    OSBORNEKRISTEN

    “The 911 terrorists were Muslim.”
    I do not know, as I do not know their individual motivation. If they truly believed this then they were not horrible people. This does not make what they did right, but it if they truly believed this they were not evil. The ones who are the evil ones are the one who take pleasure in this, and the ones who have taught this belief. (Read the story of King Lamoni, starting in Alma 17 for a better explanation.)

    Paul was not a murderer. Murder is to knowingly shed innocent blood. As Paul believed these men guilty he did not commit murder.

    As to being a sinner, do you really expect anything less. Paul knew what he had done, and he fealt great sarrow concerning it. He is not speaking God’s judgement on himself, but his own personal feelings of Guilt. Yes we have all sinned, and to Paul he likely felt like “chief sinner” but that does not mean he was.

    As to Ananias, If you actually read the story you will see that Paul did do something. He may not have gone to Ananias, but in the vision Ananias is told that it is because Paul was praying (verse 11) that he was being sent there. So he did do something. As to Ananias’s objections, it was out of fear, and I will not deny this. Also, the acts in and of themselves were evil, again I will not deny it. However, the motivation must be considered, and God does look on the heart. Thus, even though the act were evil the man was good. If he had died in those actions he would have been condemned, but because his heart was in the right place God chose him.

    There is a difference between being evil and being wicked. Evil do evil for the enjoyment of it. Wicked do evil because they believe it is right. It comes down to motives. If your motive is pure you will except the corrections and chastisments of God and change as needed, just as Paul did. If your motive is not pure you will not change regardless of any miracles or visions you might have.

    The last phrase that you quote of mine you misunderstand. I was doing a simple proof concerning the statement “When someone has been brought to faith, God makes them a new creature. THEN, and only then, are they able to do anything that can please God.” If you follow this statement to its logical conclusion what I stated is the result.

    There are things God want you to do.
    You cannot do these things until you are brought to Christ.
    In order to be brought to Christ you must first have faith in Christ.
    Thus, as faith comes first, it is not one of the things God wants us to do.
    So, God does not want faith, he wants works, and simply having faith is not enough.

    Lastly, as I have said in other posts and threads, I do not want to be saved without some effort on my part. This is just like a parent spoiling a child. It is not good and cannot benefit the child in any way. I do not want to be spoiled, nor do I think that God wants to spoil me. He wants me to do everything I can, even though he knows it will never truly be enough. Only after this will he extend his mercy.

  23. catzgalore said,

    April 25, 2009 at 9:01 am

    If you do not want to be saved without some effort on your part– you won’t be.
    Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV) speaks of salvation coming through the grace of God:

    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  24. osbornekristen said,

    April 25, 2009 at 12:31 pm

    I have already taught that verse (Ephesians 2:8) to my 2-year-olds. We say it together every night before our prayers. I want them to always know the true meaning of the Cross and that grace is a free gift! I also hope they will oneday help their Nana understand it too!!

  25. shematwater said,

    April 27, 2009 at 12:55 pm

    I have never denied this verse. If you pay attention to what I am saying you would see this.

    I said “He wants me to do everything I can, even though he knows it will never truly be enough. Only after this will he extend his mercy.”

    Notice, I said I could never truly do enough. I cannot boast that my actions saved me, as they haven’t. The glory and power to save goes to God. I do not boast in my own strength, as it is not enough. But I would be ashamed to stand before God and ask for his Grace and mercy when I have done nothing. No. I will stand before him, having done all to stand, so that when he extends his grace I stand without shame and receive it.

  26. catzgalore said,

    April 27, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    What we are saying is almost the same. Yes, He wants me to do everything I can, even though He knows it will never truly be enough… I only disagree with one thing… “only after this will he extend His mercy.”

    It is only AFTER He extends His mercy can we do anything to please Him at all.

  27. shematwater said,

    April 30, 2009 at 10:54 am

    “It is only AFTER He extends His mercy can we do anything to please Him at all.”

    Then he is not pleased with our faith, or our desire to come to him, or anything we may do. This is what I cannot believe.

    If God is pleased when a Christian gives charitably to another, would he not be pleased when a non-Christian gives charitably. If he is pleased with a Christian who refrains from lieing, would he not be pleased with a non-Christian who is also honest.
    When we live righteously God is pleased, regardless of whether or not we have accepted him. In truth, those who are not taught the truth, but still live righteously are more pleasing than those are taught the truth, but are slow to remember their God.
    As Christians when we fail, when we sin, a greater fault lies with us for we understand the truth. When a person is raised and taught false traditions much of the sin is on the part of the parents, and so they will be judged less harshly.

    We must be willing to do all we can to please God, and we must try to do so. After this God will extend his grace, giving us power to do even more, and thus be given a greater portion of his grace to do even more until, through his grace, we are perfected. But woe to the persn who receives of his grace and does not act on that gift.

  28. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 30, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Shem,

    You are merely stating your own opinion, which is completely false!!!

    I listen to God and His truth is the only truth!!!!!

    You wrote: “If God is pleased when a Christian gives charitably to another, would he not be pleased when a non-Christian gives charitably. If he is pleased with a Christian who refrains from lieing, would he not be pleased with a non-Christian who is also honest. When we live righteously God is pleased, regardless of whether or not we have accepted him. In truth, those who are not taught the truth, but still live righteously are more pleasing than those are taught the truth, but are slow to remember their God.

    The Holy Spirit has revealed that it is impossible for those who do not have faith to please God!!!!!

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.” (Hebrews 11:6)

    Jesus taught us what He will say to those who think they should be allowed into God’s Kingdom because of their works, people who thought they were doing good works, but weren’t:

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:22-23)

    God extends His mercy before any works are done. Without faith, a person cannot do a good work. A good work must have the motivation of love for God. If someone does a work as a means to gain eternal life, that is not a good work. That work is not motivated by love for the God who has already forgiven all of their sins. Forgiveness is granted first, then out of love for the unconditional gift, a person lives a life of love for God!!!

    And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most? Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. (Luke 7:42-43)

    You have nothing to pay and don’t realize it. The only payment accepted is the blood of a perfect sacrifice.

    And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.” (Hebrews 9:22)

    The blood of that perfect sacrifice has already been shed. We have already been washed from our sins with His blood:

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Revelation 1:5)

    If you do not believe this, then you will be granted what you believe–the opportunity to earn forgiveness with your works. You want to earn your forgiveness, but, you will not gain forgiveness because you believe you must earn it. Forgiveness cannot be earned, it is only gained by believing this gift is unmerited, unconditional and freely offered.

  29. osbornekristen said,

    April 30, 2009 at 5:38 pm

    Shem,

    Spencer Kimball taught that “each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.153).

    I wonder, which rung do you believe you are on? Truthfully, can you say that you know? Do you know for certain which level any of your loved ones are on?

    The reason that I worship and praise the Lord everyday is because I do know. My eternal destination is sealed with HIS blood. How can you truly praise God in song or in prayer if you aren’t sure exactly what “rung” you will be on when you die??

    You have been deceived by mere men claiming to know truth…….but they themselves were also deceived or simply untruthful.

    Titus 3:3-9 says,
    For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

    This verse in Titus tells us, “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

    So, we first come to know Jesus, then we are justified by him through grace, and then we maintain the “good workHE has done in us. It is ALL about HIM. You have to have Christ living in you to be able to please HIM. When you ask HIM to come to live in your heart, you are saved by HIS grace. Then, and only then is HE able to do good works through you. IT is HIM doing the good works…….not you. EVERYTHING GOOD comes from GOD……including spiritual gifts and the desire to please and honor HIM.

    False teachers have made up the idea that works come first. The bible says that this is impossible! James 1:17 “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.”

  30. shematwater said,

    May 1, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    LATTERDAYSAINTWOMAN

    Let us get strait our definitions. The reference to Hebrews speaks of pleasing him in the context of receiving blessings from him, receiving that witness. We will never have that witness without the faith.
    But tell me, is an honest man condemned for his honesty because he does not follow Christ? If a man obeys all of the Ten commandments, but does not confess Christ will his obedience condemn him?
    If the answer is truly yes than God is no longer just, but is a respector of persons, for he says to one, even though you have been obedient I will condemn you, and he says to another, even though you have not done all I asked I will save. There is no justice in this.

    In Matthew you might have noticed that these people are not rejected because they rely on their works, but because they rely on the confession of Christs name. Notice, they are claiming to have done these in his name, “in THY name done many wonderful works,” because they believed if they did he would save them. Yet he casts them out because they did wickedly (“depart from me, ye that work iniquity”). They are relying on their faith, not their works.

    As to Luke, if you notice the wording you will see that they paid all they could before they received this forgiveness. “When they had nothing to pay,” not while they still had something, but only after they had exhausted all their own rescourses and could no longer pay any more. The moral of the story (He to whom he forgave most) does not even tell us which one was forgiven most. For all we know the one who owed 500 could have paid 490 and have been forgiven 10, while the one who owed 50 paid only 10 and was forgiven 40. All we really know frm this parable is that after we pay what we can we will receive forgiveness of teh rest, and those who are forgiven more are the ones who will love the most.

    Why is it that if you believe works are necessary you have to believe they can save you? Why is it that if I believe in works I cannot believe in faith, or the grace of God? Why must these things remain seperate?
    I do not believe that I can earn a full forgiveness. It is impossible. But I know that if I do not pay all I can I will not receive a forgiveness.

  31. shematwater said,

    May 1, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    OSBORNEKRISTEN

    Who said works come first? Works and faith must both come at the same time, and then grace is given.

    As to teh ladder, know i don’t know exactly what rung I am on. I can make a very good guess, but I do not know. That is the goal, though, to know.
    If you were going to give an actual rung, I would say I am only about half way up. However, I do know I am not on the bottom, and I do know that I am on the right ladder.

    I can give God more praise, glory, and honor in song, thought and deed because I do not know. Because I know that with his help I can be at the top when I die.
    I find it hard to praise a god who cares nothing of my own efforts, and condemns me for trying to obey him. I find it hard to praise a god who spoils his creation, doing everything for them, simply to build himself up.
    I find it easy to praise a Father who knows what I need and will give me the assistance required that I may progress and be like him.

  32. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    May 1, 2009 at 2:52 pm

    Shem,

    You asked: “Why is it that if I believe in works I cannot believe in faith, or the grace of God? Why must these things remain seperate?

    Heavenly Father’s answer:

    And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” (Romans 11:6)

    Forgiveness is only granted by faith and grace, without any works involved in the equation. You can only receive forgiveness through God’s mercy–by His grace. If you think you can add your works to your faith you are ruined!! It is like wearing a radiation suit. One pinprick and you are contaminated. If you try to add even one of your works to your faith you will not attain eternal life. The reason? Because even your righteous works are like filthy rags compared to the perfection demanded by God.

    You claim that Justice cannot act unless you add your works to the equation. But, Mercy now reigns because Christ has already paid the demands of Justice. You deny Christ by claiming that Justice can somehow be paid through your efforts to earn God’s mercy.

    Every single person is either 100% pure and clean through faith in Christ or, 100% sinful and still in their sins without faith in Christ.

  33. shematwater said,

    May 4, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    LATTERDAYSAINTWOMAN

    I am of the house of Israel. I am a desendent of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, through Joseph and Ephriam. I was born of this covenant line, and nothing in my earthly life has earned this for me. I was also born into the chruch that was organized by Christ in these last days, again by his grace, and not by my works.
    This is what Paul is talking about in Romans 11. This is what we are given through the grace of God, and not by works.

    As tot he rest of what you say: Even if there is a small hole in the suit you use as an example, contamination still comes by degrees, depending on the length of exposure, and the size of the whole. Two can be contaminated, one taking a day to cure, one taking a month. In any case, when there is a hole God will tell us, and call us out of the danger to receive teh treatment we need. But it is up to us to heed that call and go to where the teatment can be administered.

    Mercy reigns, but only over those who have done all to stand. The Mercy of Christ has given us the Armor of God, but it is up to us to put it on (Ephesians 6). What good will his mercy do us if we do not use it.


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