Have LDS Prophets Changed God’s Definition of Hell?

I remember reading a story about a man that was in one of the Towers when the plane crashed into the World Trade Center. On the 27th floor he had ample time to get out, but instead he decided to stay in the building to answer the phones. His co-workers made it to safety but he lost his life. Obviously this man didn’t recognize the true danger he was in. He died because he didn’t feel the urgency to leave a building which he believed had a solid foundation.

This is the way LDS members feel about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They believe that their Church is the only Church that can guide them to eternal life. But the truth is that one day Mormonism will collapse because its teachings are not “built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets” and “Jesus Christ”. And the tragedy is that anyone who places their trust in these false teachings will spend eternity in Hell.

God has declared that there are only two eternal destinations—Heaven and Hell. Hell is a very real and horrible place of suffering. The Bible uses many different words to describe Hell: Outer Darkness, the Second Death, a Lake of Fire and Brimstone, a Furnace of Fire, Eternal Fire, Everlasting Punishment, Everlasting Fire, Everlasting Destruction, Damnation and Where their Worm Dieth Not.

All these words and more describe a horrible place of suffering that does not end at Judgment Day. Hell lasts forever! Satan and his demons will spend eternity in Hell; so will many people (Matthew 7:13-14). Heavenly Father tells us that sin is the reason a person will be cast into Hell. God is so offended by sin, that on Judgment Day, any sin will produce the verdict of “guilty”.

LDS prophets have taken God’s stated truths found in the Bible and have omitted, altered and twisted His Words to mean something totally different. What makes me angry about the false LDS teachings regarding Hell is that because of it—Mormons are completely unaware of the danger they are in. LDS believe that as long as they don’t deny the Holy Spirit they will be OK. They trust that the worst kingdom they could spend eternity is in a world far better than earth.

Referring to the lowest Kingdom of Heaven, Joseph Smith taught that it’s glory surpasses all understanding: “And thus we saw, in the heavenly vision, the glory of the telestial, which surpasses all understanding. And no man knows it except him to whom God has revealed it.” (D & C 76: 89-90)

Those who supposedly go to this “Kingdom of Glory” are those who:

“did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–86, 103–6.)” (Gospel Principles, page 298).

Comparing these words to God’s Truth proves they are false!! Jesus Himself told us about those who will be sent to Outer Darkness, and here are His reasons:

Showing up for God’s feast without a wedding garment (Matthew 22:13) an unprofitable servant who was so afraid of God that he hid his talent in the earth instead of using it (Matthew 25:30) and, Israelites who didn’t have faith (Matthew 8:12). People who simply don’t know God and those who don’t obey the Gospel will be sent to Everlasting Destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

Our Savior testified that everlasting Fire and Punishment describe the eternal destination of those who merely commit sins of omission!! He also tells us that on Judgment Day, those who didn’t “feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, take in the stranger, clothe the naked, visit those who were sick or those in prison” will be cast out to spend eternity in the very same place as “the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41-46).

The Apostle John taught that the devil’s eternal destination is the “Lake of Fire and Brimstone”. But did you know it will also be the eternal home of “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars” (Revelation 20:10 & 21:7-8).

Look closely back at those words—all liars will spend eternity with Satan and his demons, the very same place same as murderers and whoremongers! This is because God does not grade sins. Every sin receives the same consequence—eternal torment in Hell.

But despite these words of God, take heart—there is hope!! If you believe that Jesus’ blood covers over every one of your sins, then it does!! You are completely sin-less—right now!! John the Beloved tells us that those who overcome are God’s children who will inherit all things: “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Revelation 21: 7).

This Apostle whom Jesus loved also tells us who overcomes and why: “Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:4-54).

Link to Additional Bible References:


  1. redoranges said,

    May 30, 2009 at 10:50 am

    What is the origin of the artwork on the upper left of your blog? Is this your own?

  2. catzgalore said,

    May 30, 2009 at 1:40 pm

    I came across a guy, John Dehlin (mormonstories.org), who investigated his church, found all the historically documented lies and coverups, and still wants to be Mormon. I’m seeing very clearly that it is God alone who will rip the darkness away from unbelievers (I am not specifically referring to Mormons here– there are unbelievers everywhere, and only God knows the heart!) and give them the gift of faith. It is not seeing the lies that bring you to Christ– it is Christ Himself.

    Hell is scary. I know that if not for the grace of God it is where I deserve to be. It is not my good works that keeps me from eternal damnation, but only Jesus.

  3. geoff456 said,

    May 30, 2009 at 3:33 pm


    You must mean he found all the LIES about Joseph and the early Church Members…right? Why don’t you look into the early pioneer stories? These were people that KNEW Joseph and Brigham for themselves. They sacrificed nearly everything for the sake of the Gospel. They were blessed in so many ways. Their stories are incredible!
    If you really want to find garbage on the internet, it is just a click away! Why not look for the GOOD in people? These people loved Jesus Christ and served Him everyday with every ounce of strength they had! It is pretty “easy” to sit at a computer and type “documented” stories. Documented by whom??


  4. geoff456 said,

    May 30, 2009 at 11:41 pm


    I was surprised to see this comment:
    People who simply don’t know God and those who don’t obey the Gospel will be sent to Everlasting Destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9).

    I was pretty sure that the EV view didn’t include “obedience” to the Gospel as a pre-requisite to salvation.

    Jesus tells us that on Judgment Day, those who didn’t “feed the hungry, give water to the thirsty, take in the stranger, clothe the naked, visit those who were sick or those in prison” will be cast out to spend eternity in the very same place as “the devil and his angels

    This statement implies that WORKS matter. Also an about-face from the usual EV position.


  5. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 1, 2009 at 3:47 pm


    I don’t know for sure what “EV” means (is it evangelical?). Whatever group you lump me with, my only source of truth is the Bible. The Bible is pretty clear that obedience is a “pre-requisite to salvation”! In fact, only 100% obedience is adequate! Jesus has told us who our standard for perfection is–we must be as perfect as our Heavenly Father (Matthew 5:48). No unclean person can dwell in God’s presence (Ephesians 5:5).

    That is why Jesus had to come to save us! Those with faith in His Atonement are credited with Christ’s obedience!! When God sees someone with faith, He sees the perfect works of Jesus. Jesus is their substitute for the obedient works required. Every time Jesus did a good work, a person with faith gets the credit for Jesus’ obedience! Jesus was perfect, therefore, those with faith in His atonement have been perfected forever (Hebrews 10:10-14). That is the only way anyone will meet God’s demands for obedience to His laws. This is truly a miracle.

    The Bible claims that another miracle happens at faith. The moment the Holy Spirit brings a person to faith, they are a new creature. That new creature can now do works of love. Jesus said that those who are forgiven much–love much! Once you know how much you are forgiven, you can’t help but love Jesus for what He did for you and share that love with others. Every single person that has faith in Jesus will do good works, they can’t help it! This is what James chapter two claims—faith without works is dead. So, even if someone claims to have faith, if they don’t do good works then their faith is dead!

    Without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). That is why every single Judgment Day picture in the Bible portrays only two categories of people–the righteous and the wicked! The angels have already separated the righteous from the wicked before any works are judged! The only way to be righteous is through faith. All with faith are righteous. The works of the righteous will be rewarded. All without faith are wicked and will suffer the consequence for their sin—Hell.

    Faith alone saves, but faith is never alone!

    To read more on this subject, read the two posts titled:
    1) “Testimony of 3 Witnesses: Faith without works is dead”
    2) “Are you 100%?”.

  6. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 1, 2009 at 4:02 pm


    You wrote: “What is the origin of the artwork on the upper left of your blog? Is this your own?

    I am not sure which artwork you are referring to. If you mean the “theme” of my blog, it is a wordpress generated artwork that I chose from among several options. It is “Thirteen” by Becca Wei.

    If you are referring to the butterfly I use for my avatar, that is my own original artwork. It is a portion of a much larger Stained Glass Panel that I did for a commissioned artwork that hangs in Wisconsin at a Church Seminary.

  7. catzgalore said,

    June 1, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    I think EV means Christians other than Mormons. We’re all in the same box.

    Some of the things that John Dehlin brought up are things that were taught in the church in the mid sixties, when I first started learning about the Mormon church. I had a good friend (Mormon) in high school and I attended services with her several times. I remember being impressed that even a bunch of teens prayed before a road trip (or was it just for my benefit?) I went to a summer camp to help clean it up, and we found some pamphlets there about Joseph Smith and how he translated the plates with seer stones and his head in a hat. I just couldn’t swallow that. And I found out that blacks were not worthy enough for the priesthood. I asked my friend about it and was told not to worry about that stuff, because it didn’t matter. It was fun, they had dances, believing “that stuff” was no big deal… just like the church where I grew up, just a social club. I know not all Mormon churches are like that, just like all EV (your term) churches are the same. But I just couldn’t believe that God would speak to a prophet through an occult thing (seer stones). Or that Jesus visited the US while he was in resurrected state, and talked to the Indians (that’s what they said). It all seemed like a bunch of nonsense. So a lot of what I learned was right from the horse’s mouth, as it were. Another Mormon friend said she was in the church because her family had been in it for 5 generations, and although she had doubts, she would never voice them to her family, she could be excommunicated for doing that.

    I wouldn’t want to be in a church where you could get shunned for asking the wrong questions.

    Dehlin’s attitude seems to be, don’t worry about TRUTH, is it GOOD? Well, if I were not a Christian (MY definition) I might be attracted by the emphasis on family, how they seem to take care of their own– good things, from a worldy point of view. But for me, truth is more important than what a church can do for me.

    Mormon doctrine has changed since then– “bad” stuff rationalized away. Worthy Black males can now hold the priesthood. So was that prophet wrong? Or does the church lie– saying that it will allow blacks, but secretly still thinking that they are not REALLY worthy because they aren’t white enough? Or maybe he was not a prophet in the first place!

    Works are a byproduct of faith; a proof that it exists. If there are no good works, how can there be faith? But the works are a RESULT of the faith, not an additional condition that must be met to get to heaven.

  8. catzgalore said,

    June 2, 2009 at 2:40 pm

    Well. Here’s what John Dehlin says, and you can see for yourself where he documented what he found. He’s still a Mormon, by the way.

  9. shematwater said,

    June 8, 2009 at 12:24 pm


    Let me say a few things about your last two posts.

    First, the seer stones, as much as you may not like it, are in the Bible. Aaron had these two stones as part of his priestly garment (Exodus 28: 30, and Leviticus 8: 8). In Numbers 27: 21 we are told that Eleazer asked judgement through the Urim, a stone. In Deuteronomy 33: 8 the Levites are told to always have these stones with them. 1 Samuel 28: 6 indicates that the Urim was used as a means of receiving revelation from God (and an exceptable one at that). In Ezra those who could not prove they were descendents of Aaron were to wait until a priest stood with Urim and Thummim, indicating that through these stones the truth was revealed (Ezra 2: 63). This is also stated in Nehemiah 7: 65.

    With all this evidence that God worked through these stones in the past, and the acknowledgement that God is the same Yesterday, today, and forever, why is it so impossible that he would not use such stones again?

    As to Christ appearing in America, why is that so impossible? Why, if he loves all people, would he not minister to all people? Explain what the problem with this is.

    As to the last point, the blacks not being able to hold the priesthood, few people truly understand this, but I would suggest you read about it in the series of books titles “Answers to Gospel Questions” which is a collection of questions sent in to the First Presidency back in the 60’s I believe, and answered by Joseph F. Smith (or Fielding, I get them confused) in the New Era Magazine. He does a great job explaining the doctrine.

    I will say here that even when Joseph Smith first taught this he also taught that this restriction would be lifted in the furture, so doing so was not a change of doctrine, but a fulfillment of prophecy. Also, even when they were under this restriction, they were never barred from the Celestial Kingdom.

    As to John Dehlin, I have read many of the same things he has and have to say that I do not see many of his statements to be true. These are the reasons people leave, but most of them are misunderstood. He sounds like a great guy, but one who wants to agree with what the world says is true rather that what God says is true. (I say this because he seems to accept the idea of the earth being older than what is recorded in the Bible – 6000 years.) As such he is willing to believe what is generally accepted rather than accept what may be unpopular, but what is true.

  10. catzgalore said,

    June 8, 2009 at 10:52 pm

    Hello Shem, it is good to have you back. I have learned a lot from you. Thank you for giving me motivation to dig in and study some things I didn’t know too much about.

    I’ve been looking up references to the Urim and Thummim in the Bible. I have yet to find them used to translate anything.

    1 Samuel 28:6 in the King James Version says:

    6And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. Is that what your scripture says?

    The rest of the chapter verifies that the LORD did NOT reveal by Urim– because he then decided to ask a woman who ” hath a familiar spirit”. Read the whole chapter. Saul was not following the Lord’s leading! We read later in the chapter that he felt abandoned by God!

    We could go doctrine by doctrine, but not sure it would be profitable for either one of us. There are a lot of things I agree with from reading on the lds.org site. There’s a lot of truth. But from my point of view, Joseph Smith twisted scripture, not translated it. I don’t mean that condemning of you. You seem like a nice guy! I know it seems incredible that Smith could write down so much and “know” so much. Maybe the “angel of light” that helped him was not from the Lord at all. Satan’s strategy is to get a lot if it right; enough to SEEM right. But Proverbs 14:12 warms us–There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death.

    in Matthew 17 we are warned: “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves”. Doesn’t a man who had 20 or more wives seem like a ravening wolf?

    Matthew 24:24 says For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

  11. catzgalore said,

    June 9, 2009 at 12:22 am

    Well. I show by my post that I don’t know a lot, don’t I? I have been reading in Samuel, and learning so much more about the situation that I knew before. It seems that the stones they were talking about were connected somehow to the priest’s garments. I don’t know much yet, but I will 🙂

    I am still not seeing them used in the way Joseph Smith claimed to use them.

  12. shematwater said,

    June 9, 2009 at 12:08 pm


    The stones were used to reveal truth. One part of revealing truth is translating from one language to another (the true meaning of the words).

    (I have recently posted on a previous thread. I would like to apologyze if I offend in any way on that post.)

  13. catzgalore said,

    June 9, 2009 at 6:32 pm

    translating from one language to another is not revealing truth. Translating is only restating something in another language. It can be done by a knowledgeable human. I know we will never agree on this.

    That other one’s a long post. 🙂 It will take me awhile.

    Thank you for trying not to be offensive. I appreciate that..
    I know you assume that if I would only read the book of mormon then I would believe– and I challenge you to read only the Bible (did I personally tell YOU that? I know I told Geoff, and he yelled at me, LOL.) I do understand that one needs to get information from the source. And no, I do not know a lot. And I have read SOME in the book of mormon, but it leaves me shaking my head. When I learned about Joseph Smith, and how he put seer stones in a hat (not how they were historically used) I never really got past that. When I read about all of his wives, I couldn’t get past that either. And when I read that blacks were denied the priesthood, I couldn’t get past that. And when I was excluded from my son’s wedding, it was very difficult. Yes there is resentment there, I ask God to heal that. I read the Book of Abraham side by side with what it was supposed to improve (I don’t remember right off hand what that is) and what was added made no sense to me. And reading creation story? It seemed blasphemous to me. Sorry.
    It isn’t really about Joseph Smith. It isn’t about US… it’s about GOD. It is about the fact that God came to the earth to live a sinless life and died to pay the penalty for our sins. Do I understand that? Of course not. I don’t know how Jesus could be fully God and fully man too. All I know is that my God is so big there’s no way to figure it out. Mormon doctrine explains it by saying there are lots of gods– but the Bible says there is only ONE God, from everlasting to everlasting. I choose to worship the ONE, the everlasting God. He says there are none beside Him, and I believe Him. The Bible says people will either be on the right, or the left, in His presence or not in His presence, Heaven or Hell. Do I understand how a loving God could send people to Hell? No, but I believe it, He’s GOD and can do whatever He wishes.
    It’s not about US being glorified, or being gods– it is about HIM. He deserves the glory, the honor, the worship, NOT US.
    And I pray for you, that God would show you Himself. I pray that God would give you grace and wisdom, and bless you and your family. I pray that He would have mercy on you. You pray the same for me, okay?

    Yes I have a lot to learn. 🙂 We all do.

  14. geoff456 said,

    June 10, 2009 at 8:11 am


    I yelled at you??



    PS Joseph put the stones in the hat to block out the sunshine that precluded him from seeing. It was a one time occurence, not the way he translated every day.
    Abraham had multiple wives…was he a ravening wolf?

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ IS all about God and His Son. Listening to a prophet of God does NOT diminish God, it shows our obedience and loyalty to God. See the book of Amos! God reveals truth to His prophets!

    I can just “hear” you as I read this. You sound just like my family. You have a deep prejudice against the LDS Church. That may or may not be your fault, but you might as well face it. It comes through loud and clear.


  15. catzgalore said,

    June 10, 2009 at 11:38 am

    Sorry, Geoff, you didn’t shout about THAT issue, but you shouted (all caps) LOL

    When I read the following, I could “see” your face getting red and you pounding your fist on the table… of course you probably weren’t doing that, but that’s how it felt.

    “There is POWER in the priesthood and there is POWER in our covenants, and denominational Christians STILL DENY THE POWER THEREOF!!!”

    and you quickly resort to personal attack– (a couple examples)

    YOU also need a refresher course in reading comprehension AND a refresher course in Old Testament History

    …personally do not care what you believe. have a great life…..learn to read! its fun! ( and learn to properly quote people. )

    Look for me in the Spirit World (Heaven)….I will be the one standing with the Prophet Joseph Smith waving at you!! LOL


    I get a chuckle out of people like you who think they “write” the book on who and who will not go to “heaven”.

    My pastor could NOT answer any of these questions. Poor guy, he was totally lost! he knew one refrain….come to think of it, it is the same one you sing!!
    I read my own posts, and I am not always the nicest either. Sorry. I apologize. We both get frustrated that the other doesn’t see “our” way.

    I am going to leave the refuting to those who know what they are talking about. I DO pray that God will show me His truth, and not let me get sidetracked. I DO get sidetracked easily. I am ADD to the core, LOL I AM getting old. My memory/retention isn’t what it used to be. So one final comment about all of this.

    I certainly don’t have all the answers. I don’t pretend to. I just love Jesus!

    Yes I am deeply prejudiced against the Mormon church. I face it. I grieve for my Mormon friend who felt badly she could not be perfect enough. I grieve for the lies that my daughter in law told me to cover up that her first child was not perfect. I grieve for all those that have been abandoned by their families because they left the church. I grieve for those that are really unhappy and know they can’t do everything “right” so resort to suicide.

    The main reason that I cannot believe Joseph Smith is this:

    Mormonism exalts the human to godhood. Mormonism denies that there is only ONE GOD, the Great I AM, and says there are many. We all have the potential to be gods of other worlds. If you think your church doesn’t teach that, then dig into Mormon doctrinal history.

    Your church says that Jesus died to pay for our sins, but unless we are as nearly perfect as possible, we won’t get to be with our families eternally. How do you know when you are perfect enough? How do you know when you are trying enough?

    Maybe some of us don’t want to be with our families eternally. My first husband was abusive. Neither my children nor myself would want to be sealed to him eternally.

    What about those who try so hard to live The Dream but it turns into a nightmare? I will spare you the details.

    Jesus came for the broken. I am one. I thank God every day for how much He loves me in spite of the fact that as hard as I try I cannot be perfect. I don’t even come close. I could never “measure up” no matter how hard I tried (yes I keep trying, but I know that He loves me and wants me to be with Him eternally in spite of my failures). I had a Down Syndrome cousin who loved the Lord, but he couldn’t marry, or have a family, or even express himself very well. He can’t be in your celestial heaven without a wife, can he? People who are paralyzed, or otherwise imperfect– do they get a chance? What if it is one of your children that doesn’t make the grade? How could you spend eternity knowing he/she wasn’t with you? Would that be HEAVEN?

    It is one thing to be someone that CAN be as perfect as necessary and look down upon the rest of us that struggle. It is another thing to be one that struggles. What if when you get to Heaven God says, you aren’t good enough? You didn’t DO enough?

    As you get older, you will see things more clearly. Now don’t let that bunch up your underwear. You’ll have a child that disapoints you, or a wife that isn’t as good as you want her to be. Your life will not go as you so carefully plan it, I guarantee it. You will find out things about your church that will rock you to the core. It may all come crumbling down around you.

    Thank you for your honest responses. I can see that you are genuinely convinced. I am sorry if I offended you too, this blogging only shows the words, not the feelings. It’s easy to get it wrong.

    I will pray for you– the same as for Shem, that God will show you HIMSELF.


  16. shematwater said,

    June 10, 2009 at 11:50 am


    The idea of reading only the Bible does sound funny. It would be like a Jew telling you to read only the Old Testiment. Would you do it? It is like trying to keep a road sign in place with only one nail. The arrow can point in different directions and so you cannot be wuite sure what the original direction was. By putting in a second nail (the Book of Mormon) the sign is now stuck in place, unmovable by those who would seek to lead you away.

    As to assuming you will believe if you only read, that it not true. There are many who have read that do not believe. It is a hope, not an assumption, and more a hope that you will understand than believe.

    On a few of your comments: “Joseph Smith put seer stones in a hat (not how they were historically used) I never really got past that.” The only historical fact is that he used them as glasses to look through. The hat idea is not very well supported by evidence.
    “When I read about all of his wives.” As geoff says, Abraham had multiple wives, as did Jacob and Moses. David also had many wives. To condemn Joseph you must also condemn these men, and we know that they were not condemned.
    “That blacks were denied the priesthood.” This would be much harder to explain, and I don’t know if it would change your perseption. If you want I can explain the whole reasoning behind this, but I think it is to much for this thread.
    “I don’t know how Jesus could be fully God and fully man too. All I know is that my God is so big there’s no way to figure it out.” Through our own understanding that is true, but Christ has said ask and ye shall receive. Does this not mean that if we ask him to explain this we will receive that knowledge.
    As to there being one God, and only one heaven and hell, I can show you in the Bible where it states very differently. But I will save that for later.

  17. catzgalore said,

    June 10, 2009 at 1:45 pm

    I’m done trying to refute things. I have found what I was looking for here. I will leave the refuting to those that are good at it. 🙂

    My, I am a liar, I can’t leave this alone, LOL… but this is really IT.

    The church’s view of history changes. Odd things, such as the hat, are explained away. Your former prophets are doubted! This from the lds site:

    “Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light. And in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe. And when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God and not by any power of man. The characters I speak of are the engravings on the golden plates from which the book was translated.” 11
    (the following is still from the lds site)
    It is tempting to accept the above statement at face value. However, since David Whitmer had not personally translated, his accuracy on details depends on whether he correctly understood what Joseph Smith told him in the first place, and whether he correctly remembered such details after that.

    here’s the link, you have to read down.

    That’s really all I have to say.

  18. geoff456 said,

    June 10, 2009 at 3:22 pm


    you need to think of my caps as italics, not as shouting. 🙂 I have never even felt like pounding on a table writing to you! I just see the same wild assumptions in your writing that I see with my family.

    You must not know much about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church to think that we don’t believe in grace! We do! We KNOW that our works will NOT get us in to heaven! We are obedient because our Savior asks it of us! What kind of child would be disobedient but then claim to love his father? Would it wash with you? Would you say that your abusive husband loved you? It certainly did not show by his behavior, did it? Possibly HE would say that he did love you….but YOU would not believe it. Same principle applies here. We are obedient, we serve, we DO what we should, we choose the right, ALL because we LOVE the Lord.

    Next: Where did you get the idea that a handicapped person can never go to the celestial kingdom? that is 100% wrong. Little children and those who are mentally incapable in ANY way are going STRAIGHT to heaven! They are the lucky ones….ooops you don’t believe in luck! 🙂

    Third: We believe in repentance. Anyone who makes mistakes and repents is covered by the Lords Atonement. Christ came to earth to give men a chance to be perfect! Paul said that we must each “work out our own salvation”. Do you believe Paul? I do.

    Fourth: “”mormonism” exalts man”. This is not correct. The Gospel of Jesus Christ provides a way to perfection! Jesus has told us that we can be HEIRS to ALL He has. Do you think that means we get to split the farm 10 ways? No, it means we will inherit His power, glory and become LIKE Him.

    Fifth: My wife is a queen. We have been married almost 36 years. (I am probably older than you) EVEN if she someday disappoints me, or a child goes astray, why would that affect how I feel about the Gospel? I didn’t follow you on that one.

    Lastly: What could I possibly “find” out about the Gospel that would rock me? I have read the silly stuff put out by the Anti-Mormon folks. It has no foundation. It is usually out of context or tweaked so as to be un-recognizable as the truth. I love the Prophet Joseph! I honor and revere the Lord’s prophet on the earth today, President Thomas S. Monson. I am always surprised (I don’t know why, you would think I would get used to it by now) how denominational Christians distort what we believe. We are normal, nice people. We love the Lord. We do our best. We read our scriptures and serve humanity. We do not launch websites to run down other religions and we do not have hoards of people who “expose” Christianity. I, for one, was THRILLED when Sarah Palin was nominated to be VP. I know that most Christian people have VERY similar values to mine and love the Lord the best they know how!
    How about taking a deep breath and admitting that you don’t know about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church? You just know enough to be dangerous and prejudice! (ha, ha) You only know the sensationalized version. You read about the former Mormons who have a bad experience that has clouded their understanding. (for instance, LDS Woman says her mormon siblings reject Jesus…..now, do you THINK that is true? Did SHE reject Jesus when SHE was a mormon? No, i think not.)

    We fully believe that Jesus came to earth to provide the way to save us. He gave commandments, He has expectations, but HE has done ALL the work for us. We (LDS) love Him and worship Him. We love and worship Father in Heaven. Is that your idea of worshipping multiple Gods? Can you see how sensational you make it sound compared to the truth?

    If (I know that is a big IF) you would like to learn the TRUTH about the LDS Church and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, then you should contact someone who can teach you. I would start with the Ward boundaries you live in and ask for a Ward missionary. They would help you see the truth about what we believe…..Trust me, I am not asking you to “convert”….just listen and understand how misled you have been.

    thanks for reading all this!


  19. catzgalore said,

    June 10, 2009 at 5:21 pm

    Geoff, In a paragraph or so, tell me what the basic Gospel of Jesus Christ is according to the Mormon church?

  20. geoff456 said,

    June 11, 2009 at 9:35 am


    I would be glad to.

    The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto Salvation. Through baptism ( a “saving”, required ordinance) by proper authority (by one holding the priesthood of God) one is admitted into the Kingdom of God on the earth. Jesus Christ submitted to baptism and sought out John because he had the proper authority to do it.
    That is not the end, however, one must keep the commandments and endure to the end. (all found in the Bible, too)
    The Articles of Faith would be very helpful to you :http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1/1-13#1

    if you really want to know more, i would be happy to help.


  21. catzgalore said,

    June 12, 2009 at 8:54 am

    So this is simply, what I believe.
    Through faith in Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins we are saved. It is a GIFT. No strings, no hidden requirements. It is a GIFT. Even the faith is a gift.

    The PROOF of that salvation is how we react to it– we react primarily in repentance (turning from our sins) and obedience (baptism, learning to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, souls, and might– there’s so much that proves it; but that proof is only showing us humans; God knows.) If one says they are a Christian but show no fruit, how can their faith be genuine? But the fruit is not what saves us. Our fruit is an expression of the Love that He has given. Our ability to produce fruit too is a gift; what apple tree makes its own apples?
    And yes, we must endure to the end. But we can’t do that in our own strength. Our part is the seeking Him, the leaning on Him, resting in Him. None of that saves us. Only God saves. If we endure to the end, it is God’s doing entirely.

    We could go through proof texts, we could try to debate. But we don’t necessarily think that the scriptures mean the same thing. Even the words don’t mean the same thing. You interpret things differently than I do. Your view of God is not the same as mine. And I don’t claim to have all the answers, I don’t have a corner on the truth. I probably have things that I believe that are not totally correct. I’m human.

    I will continue to trust in God to keep me in His Arms. If it was up to me, I would not make it. I could not do it on my own. I can’t add one bit to what He has done. My “good works” are because I love Him.

    You think a lot of “Christians” will be surprised. I agree. It grieves me to think that there are so many that have been deceived– and I am not speaking of the Mormon Church here, I mean deceived into thinking that if they are “good enough” then God will love them; no matter what denomination or church they follow.

    We can agree, only by trusting in our Lord Jesus Christ we can be saved. Even though your paragraph says nothing about repentance and confession, I know you think they are important. For me they are REALLY important– without repentance and confession, we do not have the faith we claim. Yet, even that repentance and confession are gifts! I claim nothing that I do is what saves me, only Jesus and His sacrifice. It is enough that He is glorified.

  22. geoff456 said,

    June 12, 2009 at 12:09 pm


    if there are no “hidden requirements” and the gift is totally “free”, then why does the Lord require anything of us? Why does He say He is the “author of salvation for all those who obey Him”?

    Why give “commandments” if he knows we will do them anyway?

    I believe that the commandments help us become like Him. Help us become better people. When we do what we are asked to do, it gives us power to do more. It increases our faith. Yes, our Father in Heaven freely gives us everything…meaning He doesn’t hold back blessings from those who love Him. Free doesn’t mean without a cost…..afterall, what was the cost to our Savior on the Cross and in the Garden of Gethsamane? Pretty high.

    I made my paragraph short (one, I am out of town on business and didn’t have much time…2. I wanted to keep it simple.). Repentance is covered in our Articles of Faith…which you probably didn’t take the time to read.


  23. catzgalore said,

    June 12, 2009 at 10:27 pm

    I know we don’t agree– and sometimes the difference seems miniscule. I don’t think I am doing very well at explaining the difference, so I am going to stop.

    Thanks for listening to me, and taking the time to reply.

  24. shematwater said,

    June 13, 2009 at 12:40 pm

    CATZ and GEOFF

    You both did a wonderful job and explaining the difference between the two, but Geoff makes a good point when asking about the purpose of commandments if nothing is required.

    The only answer I have heard to that question from christians is that the purpose of commandments is to show us that we could never be good enough. So, basically, God wants to rub it in our faces that he had to do it for us, which seems to detract from his love for us.
    Catz may see it diferently, I am just giving what others have told me.

    The most confusing thing anyone ever told me was trying to explain that bad works can condemn you, but that good works have no effect on your salvation at all. This is impossible, as nothing can exist without an opposite to it, so if bad works condemn good works must do something.
    I think we all agree that if we sin we are condemned, and by our faith we are saved. To say it another way, we are punished for sin, and rewarded for faith. But, if we do not sin how are we then punished? If we do not sin we are not punshed, but is we lack faith we are not rewarded.

    So, mathematically speaking, if the reward for our faith is greater than the punishment for our sin we are saved. However, if the reward for our faith is less than the punishment for our sins we are condemned.
    If a person has no faith and does wickedly is he condemned. If a person has faith and does righteously he is saved. But then, what happens to those who have faith but do wickedly, or those who do not have faith but do righteously? The punishment for the wickness in one is offset my the reward for their faith, while the in the other there is not reward or punishment. These people are neither saved nor condemned.

    I know this is a rather simple way of looking at it, but it a good explanation of the actual doctrine of the LDS church. This is what Joseph Smith and Sidney Rigdon asked God about when they received the revelation concerning the degrees of Glory. The logic of this dictates that a third level must exist, somewhere between salvation and condemnation.

  25. catzgalore said,

    June 13, 2009 at 3:29 pm

    “If a person has no faith and does wickedly is he condemned?” TRUE

    “If a person has faith and does righteously he is saved.” TRUE

    “But then, what happens to those who have faith but do wickedly, or those who do not have faith but do righteously?”
    IF you do wickedly, then you prove that you have no faith. If you have no faith but do righteously, you will not be saved– Not every one who says they are Christians will enter the kingdom, only the ones who are depending ONLY on JESUS .

    God gave us the commandments to show us our sin! When we read His Law we immediately see that it is impossible! But God demands we follow it ALL!!

    Here’s something that says it very well. It is from a sermon I read online. No I’m not Lutheran, by the way. 🙂

    The Pharisees did their best to obey God’s Law. So, why does Jesus condemn them? Because their “golden calf” was their own self-righteous pride! They actually thought that they DID love God and others. They viewed their obedience as the basis of God’s love for them. They assumed they were worthy of God’s love because they supposedly loved Him and obeyed His Commandments.

    But isn’t that what God said? Didn’t God say that He would punish those who hate Him? Didn’t God say that He would love those who love and obey Him? Yes. That’s how things must work if God rewards us based on our obedience or lack thereof. But then the only proper response from us should be one of fear and despair! Why? Because we DON’T love God nor do we obey His commandments!

    Even if we appear to love God and obey Him based on our OUTWARD behavior, our thoughts and desires reveal our true intentions. That’s why Scripture teaches that greed is equal to idolatry, lust is equal to adultery and anger is equal to murder. God knows our hearts! God knows that we don’t love Him with our entire being nor do we love others as we love ourselves.

    Therefore, if God gave us what we deserve we would all be punished eternally. … if we are honest, we must admit that we do NOT love God nor do we obey His commandments. If God gives us what we deserve we must be punished eternally. Our only hope is that God will give us what we DON’T deserve.

    (catz again) And that’s what Jesus does, gives us what we don’t deserve. We must cry before Him and admit that we are sinners in need of a Savior. We must repent of those sins and agree to turn from them. That’s the beginning of our faith. We continually must confess our sins and turn from them once again (hopefully not the same ones over and over)! But that isn’t because we are trying to earn His favor. God isn’t waiting for the day when we’ve done enough, or loved enough. When He looks at us He sees us as already perfected! Our lives are spent loving Him to the best of our ability and following His laws as best as we can because (italics, lol) WE CAN DO NOTHING LESS THAN HONOR THE ONE WHO PAID IN OUR PLACE!

  26. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 14, 2009 at 9:45 pm

    Well said Catz!!

    Shem, You wrote: “But, if we do not sin how are we then punished? If we do not sin we are not punished, but if we lack faith we are not rewarded.

    Not one single person can claim that they “do not sin“. The Holy Spirit inspired John the Beloved to tell us that:
    If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” (1 John 1:10).

    You wrote: “The most confusing thing anyone ever told me was trying to explain that bad works can condemn you, but that good works have no effect on your salvation at all. This is impossible, as nothing can exist without an opposite to it, so if bad works condemn good works must do something.

    Shem, our good works have no effect on our salvation:

    Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost” (Titus 3:5).

    Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began” (2 Timothy 1:9).

    Those with faith can’t even claim praise for their good works, because whenever we do a good work, it is just God working through us:

    For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” (Philippians 2:12-13)

    LORD, thou wilt ordain peace for us: for thou also hast wrought all our works in us.” (Isaiah 26:12)

    And, our good works do, do something. They bring glory where glory is due–to our Lord and Savior and to our God!

    Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.” (Philippians 1:11).

    Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.” (Matthew 5:16).

    Everything I do is in praise and glory to my Lord and Savior because He washed my sins away from me. I give my life:

    Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Revelation 1:5b).

    Only “to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:6b)

  27. shematwater said,

    June 15, 2009 at 8:58 am

    You have both missed my point. I said my outline was too simple, and I made it that way to prove a point. The only part that is truly accurate is that if the reward for our faith is greater than the punishment for our sins we are saved, but if the reward is less than the punishment we are condemned. This is the doctrine, and the rest was simply a logical flow from that.

    Yes we all sin to some degree. I have never denied this. But the fact remains that if the reward and punishment are equal we stand neither condemned nor saved. What happens to those in this state? There must be a middle ground to except them.

    If you look at the doctrine of the Three Degrees of Glory this is exactly what happens. The highest, or Celestial, is for those whose reward is greater than their punishment (those who have both faith and works). The lowest, or Telestial, is for those whose reward is less than their punishmenst (those who have neither faith nor works). The middle, or Terrestial, is for those whose reward and punishment are equal, cancelling each other out (those who have either faith or works, but not both).

    I know that the reasoning “if you sin you don’t have faith” seems to make this concept unnecessary, but let us think about it. If the commiting of a sin means you do not have faith than no one alive has faith and so we are all condemned without hope of salvation. However, if it is possible to have faith and still sin then there is hope through our faith that our sins will be cleansed.
    If a person with faith can commit a sin than the outline I have shown must be true. If a person who sins cannot have faith we are all condemned. If a person with faith cannot sin than one of two things are true: Either we are all perfect obeying the laws of God (which we are not) or God has decreed that no action is a sin when you have faith (which is totally against all the Scriptures.

    See what I mean.

  28. catzgalore said,

    June 17, 2009 at 10:11 am

    You said: …God wants to rub it in our faces that he had to do it for us, which seems to detract from his love for us.

    God isn’t so childish that he would rub it in our faces. Yes He wants us to know we can’t do it ourselves!! But that doesn’t DETRACT from His love; it ADDS to it. He loves us anyway. BECAUSE OF JESUS… ONLY because of Jesus. If we could do it ourselves, why would we need a Savior?

  29. shematwater said,

    June 17, 2009 at 10:58 am


    That really makes no sense.
    I agree he loves us anyway, but it is still rubbing it in our faces.

    When a parent sits down and explains to a child all those things they had to give up, or do for them, I don’t care how much the parent loves the child. This behavior is self-centered, and thus the love for the child is not complete, as the Parent loves themselves more.

    God is not self-centered. Thus he would not engage in such actions.

    What I find interesting is that most people who see this in neighbors or friends are quick to call them out as manipulative, but the same behavior in God is overlooked.

  30. catzgalore said,

    June 18, 2009 at 1:30 pm

    If God took all the good that I have done or thought (humanly speaking)
    and put it on one side of a scale, then took all the bad I have done or thought
    and put them on the other side, I would fail the test. If we are honest, we are all in the same boat. ALL have sinned… every one of us. How could you ever know that the good was REALLY outweighing the bad? Did you do enough good today? How do you know what “good” is? What if some things you think are good are not really GOOD? I didn’t swear today, that’s good. I thought it, that’s bad. I had a great attitude PART of the day; but I spoke sharply to someone. Oh, I wish I had THOSE shoes! but I hugged my Grandma. I did what I was supposed to do even though I didn’t really want to. Is that good or bad? Have you confessed EVERY SINGLE SIN? Are you SURE? Have you made ALL the restitution? Have you tried hard enough?
    Do you keep a running tally, and then say, well I better try harder tomorrow? How do you know when you have done more good than bad? Attitudes count.

    So how do you KNOW that you will be in the Highest heaven? Will your wife be? Will your children? How do you KNOW that?

  31. catzgalore said,

    June 19, 2009 at 9:06 am

    Geoff, the reason I do not want to read the LDS scriptures is this:

    Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9 As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

    The God of the Mormon scriptures is not the God of the Bible in so many ways. I do not believe it is the truth. If it is a different Gospel, it should be avoided at all costs. If you as a Mormon believe the scriptures, and you believe that traditional Christian beliefs are false, why do you wish to be called “Christian”? I would think you would do well to avoid us all. Mormon scriptures ADD to the Bible. Jesus didn’t teach anything about special handshakes, sacred (secret) rituals, or that families need to be sealed. Yet the Mormon church teaches those things. The Mormon church wishes to be called “Christian” and yet believes that all “other Christians” are in apostasy. Why would I wish to immerse myself in false doctrine? I ask you to immerse yourself in the Bible, which you claim as scripture from God. Read a little each day, asking God what He wants you to learn. Don’t study how to refute Christians; just get to know the God of the Bible from the Bible only. You ask me to read something I don’t believe, I am asking you to read something you claim to believe. Don’t look for the answers from men, look to the Bible.
    You are good at what you do. You are a strong Mormon. This is not meant as an attack on you. I pray for you. I pray that you will turn to Jesus and claim His sacrifice as the payment for ALL your sins. I pray that you will stop thinking that you will be good enough. Heed the warning…
    Matthew 7:21-23
    21 Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
    22 Many will say to Me in that day, “Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?”
    23 And then I will declare to them, “I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.”

    I know you have a different interpretation for these verses. But doing the will of the Father is believing that Jesus paid the price for our sins. Doing the will of the Father is trusting in JESUS ALONE to atone for our sins. There is no scale. If we trust in the scale, we are doomed. If God asks why we should be allowed in Heaven, there is only one answer…JESUS.

  32. shematwater said,

    June 19, 2009 at 8:37 pm

    You really are failing to understand the words that me and Geoff have been speaking.

    I do not believe that if you weighed you good deeds with your bad deed you would be failing. In truth I think your good works out weigh your bad works to a great extent. However, if you read what I wrote again, it is not the good works that your bad works will be judge against, but your faith. That is why I have every confidence that you will be in the Terrestial kingdom with all those who “are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men…they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.” (D&C 76: 75-76) I also know that this will be everything you are hoping for. Everything you believe heaven to be, and much more, will be waiting for you because your good works and your faith out weigh your bad works.

    As to Galatians, this is a very poor tactic to use. It is an excuse for not even bothering to ask. My question would be, are you sure the LDS church is not what Christ and the apostles taught?

    Of course this all comes down to the question “Does the Bible contain all truth?” If you are unwilling to except the fact that not all of Gods words are contained in the Bible, and not even all the ancient Apostles words are contained in the Bible, you will never know all that God has to offer you.

    You claim that we have a different gospel, yet I can show most every doctrine of the LDS church through a careful analysis of the Bible. I can even show you profecies of the Book of Mormon and how it would come forth. It is surprising how well the LDS doctrine actually fits the text of the Bible when people everywhere are denying the fact.

    Here is the real challenge, and let us keep it short. Name two doctrines of the LDS church that you know of, and show me where it says in the Bible that they are wrong. I will then show you were it says they are true, and let us compare the evidence (using only the Bible).

  33. catzgalore said,

    June 20, 2009 at 11:57 am

    Do you really think this is a win and lose thing? A real challenge? There’s that little disclaimer there: “a careful analysis of the Bible”. Meaning, we already don’t have it right.

    As for naming false doctrines, this has already discussed in this blog. See any of the threads.

  34. shematwater said,

    June 22, 2009 at 11:16 am

    My meaning is that the Bible is inceficient to settle most questions on its own. I can show my faith through the Bible, and you can show yours. Who is right, and how do you prove it?

    I do not think this is winand lose thing. I think that if you only take the Bible it is a lose and lose thing, for the same reason I previously gave.

    Now, I never asked you to name false doctrine. I asked you to engage in a simple comparrison of Biblical text for and against one or two doctrines. As neither one of us can prove them true or false, this really has nothing to do with the challenge I presented.

    Can you except the challenge, or can’t you? If you can please do so. If you can’t try not to twist my words to make you excuse.

  35. catzgalore said,

    June 23, 2009 at 9:37 pm

    Oh dear. There we go again. What I meant is that all through this blog are LDS doctrines– and biblical answers. I am not twisting your words. I meant false LDS doctrine, from a biblical, traditional Christian point of view. I know YOU don’t think it is false.

    And I also don’t think it is profitable to go over this again and again. You are not willing to even consider that the Bible alone is sufficient, or that Jesus alone is sufficient. I will never agree that the Book of Mormon is another testament of Christ. So why continue the debate? We have discussed them already! Another thing. If you can “prove” it solely in the Biblical scriptures, why do you need the Book of Mormon?

    I am willing to cling to Jesus alone– believing that Jesus is the final Priest, and that the Word of God the Bible is sufficient. I will also strive to do my best to serve Him every day of my life to honor Him. Any Heavenly reward is totally in HIS hands. I am longing for the day when I am by His side, able to worship Him forever. That’s enough.

    I do see that there are many sites that are argumentative and throw silly arguments at each other. Let’s not do that here. I know, it’s hard, we all get frustrated! Let’s agree to disagree, and pray for each other, that the truth would be known.

  36. shematwater said,

    June 24, 2009 at 8:36 am

    I have no problem with disagreeing, as long as we understand the others point of view.

    By your words you still don’t seem to understand what I am saying.
    You said “If you can “prove” it solely in the Biblical scriptures, why do you need the Book of Mormon?” The problem is, I never said I could prove them through the Bible. I said I could show them, which is very different. This is not proof, however, for the simple fact that you can show the exact opposite.

    You said “You are not willing to even consider that the Bible alone is sufficient.” This is again not what I said. I said I have read through the Bible, and in all willingness to except it I find that it is incefficient, as two opposing views can both be supported through it.

    All I want is for you to understand why I do not take the Bible alone as being sufficient to teach us the will of God. That is the reason for the challenge. Yes, LDS doctrine has been discussed, but not in the way I am perposing. I am not asking for “Biblical answers” to LDS doctrine. Let us take the priesthood. I want us each to take a few scriptures and say “here is the scriptural evidence that I base my belief on.” I do not want it said “Here is the scripture that proves your doctrine false.” See the difference.
    If our motivation is to explain our belief, and not to disprove the others, we can learn so much more.

  37. catzgalore said,

    June 25, 2009 at 9:00 am

    I’ve been really thinking and praying about this and asking the Lord for the words to say. If you read my previous posts, you know I have usually declined to do the pick-a-scripture-and-use-it-to-back- up-my-beliefs method. I just think we can run into the danger then of putting our own spin on it, especially someone like me who has not done a lot of topical studies, I just read it. If I was a better scholar then I might be more comfortable with that. 🙂 If you must have scripture references, read the Old Testament to get a picture of what the priesthood was then (which you undoubtedly already know) and read the New Testament to get a picture of what we know under the New Covenant (you have probably done that too). Anything can be “proved” by just picking verses here and there. We must look at the whole picture. I can’t “prove” my believe with a few scriptures. I also cannot express all I believe in just a couple paragraphs. I also do not guarantee that I have all the details right. Good thing my salvation doesn’t depend on that. I still have a lot to learn.

    If we look at the priesthood in ancient times, we can see that the descendants of Aaron were chosen to be priests. They were to be the mediators between the people and God. We can learn a lot in Exodus about them. We see that they were a set apart people. They had a lot of responsibilities, among them offering sacrifices of animals.They risked their lives, literally, to be priests. If they didn’t do it perfectly they could be put to death! They had special garments to wear and special duties that only they could perform.
    Before that time, there is a priesthood sometimes referred to as the “Patriarchal Priesthood” where men sometimes did priestly duties, such as altar building and animal sacrifices. It does not seem to be a “formal” priesthood like the Aaronic priesthood was.
    There are only a few verses about the Melchesidek priesthood; lots of people have speculated as to what that was. It isn’t clear in the Bible. Jesus was called a priest after the order of Melchesidek. Whether that was an “order” (such as the Jesuit Order) is not clear, or if it just means “like Melchesidek”. We don’t know a lot about him, but he must have been great, because out of all the priests, he is one of the few mentioned by name.

    Jesus is the last Priest! Not on the order of the human priesthood, because he didn’t qualify by his genealogy to be in the human priesthood. At his death the veil of the temple was torn from top to bottom giving us ordinary folks access to the Lord with no other priest! He is the last sacrifice, and the last priest, because He is forever. God Himself provided the Eternal Priest and Sacrifice!

    We only need Christ and His Righteousness. We do not need a special priesthood (we are now, as believers, part of the Priesthood of Believers) He has given us the gift of going straight to God– because of Jesus. He Himself came in the form of a man to provide the Ultimate Sacrifice in our place. No more animal sacrifices for our sins. No more priestly duties that must be done by US, they are all done by JESUS.

    That is why I don’t believe we need the Book of Mormon. We don’t need all the details filled in–He will fill in the blanks when we have the blessed opportunity to see Him face to face! I can’t wait until I can fall before Him and thank Him for what He has done!!

  38. catzgalore said,

    June 25, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    also, there has already been a good thread by you on the priesthood; so you don’t really have to say anything more…

  39. shematwater said,

    June 26, 2009 at 10:39 am

    Thank you.

    You have stated exactly what I have been trying to. As you say more than once, it cannot be proven, at least not by the Bible.
    This is why I do believe in the Book of Mormon, because I do not think God would leave us in the dark, so he provided a way for us to understand. He filled in the blanks for us.

    I think we both agree that the Bible does not have all truth in it. We disagree in that I want all truth reveal to me and the rest of the world, and you don’t think it is necessary.

    This is a good parting place.

    (if you want an explanation of why I believe in the Priesthood that the LDS church has see the thread of March 23, post 66.”

  40. catzgalore said,

    June 30, 2009 at 6:59 am

    The reason I get angry is that you turn things around and make it sound like I agree with you. Yes I agree that the Bible doesn’t give us all the answers. Maybe God wants us to trust HIM for the answers instead of trying to find someone outside the Bible to fill in the blanks! I prefer to trust God instead of a false prophet.
    This is a good parting place.

  41. catzgalore said,

    June 30, 2009 at 7:19 am

    Even though I do not call myself a Calvinist OR a Baptist, I like this quote.. from Charles Haddon Spurgeon:
    “I would propose that the subject of the ministry in this house, as long as this platform shall stand, and as long as this house shall be frequented by worshippers, shall be the person of JESUS CHRIST. I am never ashamed to avow myself a Calvinist, I do not hesitate to take the name of Baptist; but if I am asked what is my creed I reply, “It is Jesus Christ”.

    HE (Jesus!) is enough.

  42. shematwater said,

    July 6, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    God does want us to trust him for the answers. However, when he gives them he wants us to accept them.

    Now you have said “trying to find someone outside the Bible.” This is the biggest mistake made by the Christian world. It points directly to the problem that they all have. They worship a book. You do not say “trying to find someone outside of Christ” but outside the Bible. The Bible is your final authority, and even the voice of God would be rejected if it contradicted that precious book.

    I have never excepted doctrine that was not in Christ. I have never excepted a person that was not in Christ. However, I will except anything that is in Christ, regardless of whether it is in the Bible or not.

  43. catzgalore said,

    July 7, 2009 at 11:30 am

    I do not worship a book. I worship GOD!!!
    You may wonder why it is frustrating to talk to you.
    You twisted my words. You tell me I am saying what I didn’t say.
    You make “Christians” seem stupid and blind. You talk about “Christians” in this condescending way, because, after all, you have all the answers. Yet, you say you are a Christian! Well then, you are saying this about yourself too. Or are you NOT a Christian, because you have another gospel? It can’t be both! Calling yourself a “Christian” is deceitful. You are LDS. NOT the same.

    You said:
    “even the voice of God would be rejected if it contradicted that precious book”.

    If a voice proclaiming to be from God speaking contradicted “that precious book”, I would assume that an Angel of Light (Satan!) was masquerading as a messenger from God for the purpose of deceit. I will not follow false prophets, or a false gospel, no matter how good it sounds.

  44. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    July 7, 2009 at 10:29 pm



  45. shematwater said,

    July 8, 2009 at 12:13 pm


    And that is exactly the problem. You have simply stated that you believe what I said you did. You will not question the Bible, for any reason. So, you will question anyhthing that would require you to question it.

    The Bible is you final authority, not God. What God says does not count if you cannot find it in the Bible.
    Where would we be if Peter, or Paul felt this way? What of the words of Isaiah, or Elijah, or Ezekial, or Daniel. These prophets were all rejected by the people of their day because they taught that which was contrary to the beliefs of their time. The people of that age had the Law of Moses, and they would not listen to anyone who spoke in opposition to what they believed. They rejected Christ because he taught against their established order, which they claimed to be based in the scriptures.

    Are you so different from them?

  46. catzgalore said,

    July 8, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    Oh, Shem, Shem…. You said:

    The Bible is you final authority, not God. What God says does not count if you cannot find it in the Bible.

    THE BIBLE IS THE WORD OF GOD. GOD is my final authority. I cannot say that clearly enough for you. You continually say I believe something else.
    It is true that if it CONTRADICTS the Bible I will not believe it. I read all kinds of things. I watch programs about archaeology that I find it really interesting. But if I hear stuff that contradicts the Bible, then I take it with a grain of salt as it were. I certainly don’t know all the answers as you do. I say, Lord, that doesn’t sound right. Protect me from false beliefs! I trust that the Lord will show me what I need to know. I do not worship the Bible; I worship the LORD!!

    The Book of Mormon tells us a different story. It tells us a different history. It “improves” the Bible. Jesus isn’t the same as the Jesus in the Bible! Abraham isn’t the same Abraham! David the Psalmist (the man after God’s own heart!!) didn’t make it into heaven because he killed Uriah!
    There are gods of other worlds, and guess what, you can be a god too, and have spirit children forever, and populate your own world, as long as you are married!! And God didn’t create the heavens and the earth, he reorganized what was already there! That’s what I am reading, on the lds.org site, in your scriptures and teachings! If your church no longer teaches what Joseph Smith and your other prophets have said, does that make them false prophets?

    You (and the other Mormon who posts here) will forever twist my words to say what I don’t mean. What I don’t understand is why I keep talking! LOL

    Now you can go read the thread where I show you what you believe…:)

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