Can Eternal Marriage Be Perfect?

When I was a young girl I dreamt of having an eternal marriage. One day I would be in the celestial room kneeling across the altar, looking at the love of my life. We would see each other in the reflection of the mirrors as we were sealed to each other for time and all eternity. This man would cherish me and love me unconditionally, as I would him. He would be my best friend—someone I could trust. We would share all our joys, our hurts and pains, and the desires of our hearts. Most importantly, he would be faithful and true to me forever.

As I said, this was my dream. But I really never thought it would come true. Before I was even old enough to know what it was, I had lost my most important possession—my virginity. For most of my childhood I had been sexually abused and I felt so much shame. I knew how unclean I was, how inadequate to be a man’s wife. Who could ever love me if they knew? I was a broken and unhealthy young woman.

I dated quite a bit. One young man was very special to me, but I never felt worthy enough for him. How could I ever tell him the truth? While he was on his mission, I made bad choices that confirmed I was not worthy. Getting drunk one night led to getting pregnant by a man who was not LDS. My dream of an eternal marriage was shattered by my sin.

We married and my husband was baptized our first year of marriage. We both desired to be married in the Temple and worked to become worthy. Our second daughter died of SIDS and we desperately wanted to be sealed together as a family. After we obtained our much sought after Temple recommend we were married in the Salt Lake Temple. As the years passed, my husband started questioning his faith in Mormonism. Much to my dismay, he left the Church. Then I found out he had been unfaithful to me. We separated and my girls and I moved to a new State and a new Ward. The desire of my heart was to be forgiven and cleansed of my sins. I clung to the words of my prophet Spencer Kimball about how to gain this forgiveness. (If you would like to read about this, read my post titled “God Doesn’t Lie—You Have Been Forgiven”)

After I left the Church, my husband and I reconciled. He promised he would be faithful and true to me and I trusted him. Over the next several years, he often broke this promise. My heart ached every time he cheated on me, but I always took him back. Deep inside I felt that the reason he was intimate with other women was because there was something wrong with me–because I had been sexually abused. Finally, after a rocky 14 years together, he left me for good. I vowed never to trust another man. I turned to other things I loved—my daughters, my artwork, college classes and gardening. But no matter what I did, I was still alone with the guilt and shame of my sins. I knew I was unworthy, unlovable and unfit.

Amazingly when I was 36, I met the man of my dreams! He knew everything about me—all my life of shame and sinfulness. Despite how unworthy I was, He still loved and cherished me! Nothing I had ever done mattered to Him. His love was unconditional. Even though I had vowed never to marry again, I was so in love with Him that I couldn’t help myself! His name was Jesus and in 1994 I was sealed to Him for time and all eternity by Heavenly Father Himself (2 Corinthians 1:20-22). He had already proved His love for me by giving His life for me—washing me of my sin and guilt and making me the virgin I never really had the chance to be! Because of this, I knew I could trust Him and that He would be faithful to me forever.

When He chose me as His bride, He showered me with so many undeserved gifts. But the gift I have treasured most is the forgiveness won for me by His shed blood. His blood has made me clean! My life of shame was taken away the moment He chose me to be His bride. He even gave me my wedding garments! I sing with joy the words of the Prophet Isaiah “I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.” (Isaiah 61:10) The gift of His robe of righteousness cleansed me of all sin so I can dwell in the very presence of God!!

Having been given this amazing gift has changed my life drastically. One of those changes has been my desire to study God’s Word. I pour over the pages of the Bible, discovering the things that God wants to teach me. When I did a study on whether a marriage between a man and a woman will last into eternity, I found God’s truth. The only marriage relationship that will last beyond the grave is one with Jesus. Jesus Himself testified of this truth “For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.” (Mark 12:25). This doesn’t mean that believing husbands and wives won’t be together for eternity. It just means that their relationship will not be as a man and wife. All believers will spend eternity together, in companionship with God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Another gift God gave me was the courage to marry again. Four years after I met Jesus, God brought into my life a wonderful Christian man of God who, amazingly, is also Christ’s bride. The Apostle John taught us in the book of Revelation that anyone who has been made righteous through Christ is His bride.

There is no earthly relationship that surpasses the love that Jesus has for you. He died for you and wants to shower you with His gift of righteousness. Please, join with the Apostle John as we shout “Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.” (Revelation 19:7-9).

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122 Comments

  1. geoff456 said,

    June 17, 2009 at 1:49 pm

    LDSW,

    I am sorry you had such a hard life. Didn’t anyone ever tell you that you weren’t to blame? Virginity doesn’t matter…virtue matters. If your virginity was taken from you at a young age, YOU are not responsible or at fault.

    I am puzzled that you believe that men and women won’t be together as husband and wife. Then why go to all the trouble of being married and having families if it is only temporary? Why would God want us to love our kids if it isn’t a permanent situation? Why not just send us to earth to free float if that is what heaven is?

    And what do you think the scripures refer to when they say ” whatsoever is bound on earth will be bound in heaven”?

    thanks,
    Geoff

  2. not2bright said,

    June 17, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    Geoff, Ephesians points out that earthly marriage is a PICTURE of Christ’s marriage with His bride, the Church.

    LDS woman, this was a beautiful post. Thank you so much for sharing. Jesus IS the perfect husband.

    Ephesians 5:24 “Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

    25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,

    27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

    28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

    29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

    30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

    31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

    33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”

  3. osbornekristen said,

    June 17, 2009 at 5:22 pm

    Geoff,
    The “bound in Heaven” thing has NOTHING to do with marriage and has been taken completely out of context. Please read the entire chapter of Matt. 16. In the beginning of the chapter, Jesus has been challenged by the Pharisees to “prove” that he is who he claims to be by producing a miraculous sign. Then, he warns his disciples to be careful against believing the Pharisees teachings…….which required men to be perfect and keep all of the commandments perfectly to a T. Then, Jesus asks the disciples “who do people say that I am.” Peter replies that Jesus is the Messiah. Jesus goes on to tell him that He is the rock upon which He will build the church.

    “18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. 19And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

    This passage explains that the church will never be destroyed or that there will never be a “Great Apostasy” as some believe. Jesus explains that faith in Him (aka Salvation….believing and trusting Him as our Savior) must happen while we are living on this earth. For if we do, we will be bound to Him for all eternity! Those who that chose not to accept that He is God in this life will be “loose” or apart from Him in eternity. It is the simple Christian belief of salvation by faith…..and heaven/hell. Christ says that if we believe in him we will be in Heaven and if we choose not to……we will be apart from Him in Hell (not in some less desirable kingdom). You are with Him or your not.

    Jesus is explaining that though the Pharisees have spent their entire lives “trying to be righteous” they have missed the boat. They don’t accept Him as Lord and thus will not be bound to Him.

    There are no second chances for those who do not accept Jesus in this earthly life.

    As Christians, we believe that if our spouses, family /children accept Christ then they will spend eternity in Heaven with us. The Bible is not clear about the exact relationship we will have with our spouses or children…..but it does speak that marriage is for this life only (Luke 20….I realize your church reads these verses differently). Christians believe that those who have accepted Christ will be together forever with Him! We know Heaven will be so wonderful that the exact type of relationship we will share is not something to worry about!

    Also, how can Mormons be bound to family for all time and eternity if family members might not be worthy enough to reach the same Kingdom. My in-laws have been sealed in the Temple but now my father-in-law is inactive and does not keep the word of wisdom……..nor does he buy into all of the Temple stuff. But, my mother-in-law is super faithful, active and keeps the Word of Wisdom to a T. Does she have to spend eternity in a lower Kingdom because of him?

    I think I will stick with trusting that I am bound to Christ forever because I have accepted Him on earth………my hubby will be with me too because he has done the same. We are teaching our children to know the Lord so that one day they too will trust him as their Savior!

  4. shematwater said,

    June 18, 2009 at 10:48 am

    OSBORNE

    If it is only speaking of being bound to Christ in Heaven, then Peter has a lot of power, because was given this authority. So, if Peter chose to bind you to Christ you were bound, but if he chose to loose you you were losed. What happened to Christ being the only way.

    Also, the verse says “What so ever” not “whom so ever.” So, Peter was given the power to bind anything and everything. He was not given the power to save, but to bind. Thus, a baptism performed by him would be binding in heaven. A marriage performed by him would be binding in heaven.

    As to your Luke reference, read that story again. The question asked was about the Law of the Near Kinsmen, not marriage in general. They did not ask if merriage was eternal, but which of the Brother would she be sealed to. Thus, when speaking, Christ was explaining that this law is not an eternal law, so that only the one who was originally married to her would be binding. As you say, we see things differently, but I am willing to except that both can claim Biblical support.

    Now, let us look at a few other things mentioned in the Bible.
    First, and correct me if I am wrong, Adam and Eve lived in an etermal state while in the Garden. Also, when we are saved (as I understand most Christians believe) we will return to this state. If this is your belief than I would point out that Adam and Eve were married by God while in the Garden, thus their marriage would have been eternal, and thus will ours when we return to that state.

    Second, let us concider Job. In chapter one we are given a list of all that he had: (verses 2-3) “And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.
    Then, in chapter 42 we are told “And the Lord turned the captivity of Job, when he aprayed for his bfriends: also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before.” (verse 10). But in verses 12-13 the list gives only seven sons and three daughters (for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. He had also seven sons and three daughters.)
    If he was blessed with twice what he had before should this not read 14 sons and 6 daughters? Either there is an error in translation or this is indeed twice what he had. The only way it could be twice is if the original ten children were still his, thus giving him a total of 20 (14 sons and 6 daughters), twice what he had before.

    And lastly, to conclude I point to Ephesians 5, as referenced by NOT2BRIGHT. From what I read marriage between man and woman is a perfect example of the symbolic marriage of Christ to the Church. As Christ and his church will be eternally connected, or together, then the marriage of man and woman must also be eternal, otherwise it would not be the perfect example (there would be a flaw in the comparrison).

  5. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 18, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    Geoff,

    You wrote: “I am sorry you had such a hard life. Didn’t anyone ever tell you that you weren’t to blame? Virginity doesn’t matter…virtue matters. If your virginity was taken from you at a young age, YOU are not responsible or at fault.

    Thanks for your kind words. No, when I was younger no one ever told me that I wasn’t to blame. The reason is because I never told anyone. I am 50 years old and back when I was young, child abuse wasn’t talked about much. I know now that it wasn’t my fault, but I didn’t realize this until I was in my late twenties.

    You might claim that virginity doesn’t matter and that virtue does, but that was not what I was hearing from my Mutual teacher. She told us that our virginity was the most important thing to us and that we should kill ourselves to protect it. When I read “The Miracle of Forgiveness” I realized she was simply repeating President Kimball’s beliefs (page 196). In speaking of rape or incest, he says “It is better to die in defending one’s virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle.” (When he says “virtue” he is actually speaking of a woman’s virginity). Hearing and reading these things just reinforced and increased my guilt and shame—I didn’t have the courage to do the “better” thing (or even the knowledge beforehand, that this was what I should have done to begin with?)

  6. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 18, 2009 at 3:52 pm

    Geoff,

    You wrote: “I am puzzled that you believe that men and women won’t be together as husband and wife. Then why go to all the trouble of being married and having families if it is only temporary? Why would God want us to love our kids if it isn’t a permanent situation? Why not just send us to earth to free float if that is what heaven is?

    I don’t know the mind of God. His ways are so above our ways and He has the prerogative to do as He wishes. I accept His will and know what His will is, by reading His Words in the Bible.

    I am curious about your question: “Why would God want us to love our kids if it isn’t a permanent situation?” Looking at LDS doctrine, isn’t it true that you will not be spending eternity with your children—as their father? Your being their parent is “not a permanent situation” according to LDS teachings. Your children, if they are valiant, will become God’s and Goddesses and will live exactly like God the Father—they will become parents and create spirit children of their own, on a world of their own.

  7. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 18, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Geoff:

    You wrote: “And what do you think the scriptures refer to when they say ” whatsoever is bound on earth will be bound in heaven”?”

    A few of the most awesome things I learned about reading scripture is to study the passages in context and let the Bible interpret the Bible. The words you reference are actually said by Jesus on two different occasions and both are found in Matthew. Neither of them even mentions the marriage or family relationship. The binding has nothing to do with eternal families or marriage!

    Reading them both in context, the first, is in chapter 16:

    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    From these words it is difficult to know exactly what will be bound. But, looking at the next reference in Matthew chapter 18 gives us much more insight:

    Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    As I said, reading in context, there is no reference to marriage or families being bound together on earth and in heaven. There is not one single hint that marriage is the context. Jesus is speaking about two fellow believers. One believer feels that the other one has sinned against him. Jesus tells that person to first, try and work the problem out between the two of them. If that doesn’t work, then he is to take a few others to be witnesses that he tried to settle the matter. If that doesn’t’ work, then they should tell it to the Church. If the offender still won’t settle the matter, then the Church has the authority to treat him as an unbeliever. His actions give evidence that he does not have a heart of a believer.

    In regards to the context of the binding or the loosing; it appears that the Church merely has the authority to announce the guilt or the innocence, not determine it. It has already been determined by the guilty party who refuses to settle the matter. A true believer will have the desire to try and settle the matter, so the context has more to do with the guilty party’s relationship with God- which then answers why it would be binding in heaven.

    This can be clarified by one other scripture that seems to be connected and can be found in John chapter 20. The setting is after Christ has risen and has appeared to His disciples and is sending them out as missionaries. Here we read:

    Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

    Jesus is telling His disciples that, as they proclaim His gospel, they are in effect, forgiving or not forgiving sins, depending on how the message of the gospel is received by those hearing it. The disciples have the authority and power to do this because they have just been given the gift of the Holy Ghost! Through this gift, they proclaim God’s truth—just as I do as a missionary. When I tell a person that Christ’s blood has forgiven all their sins, if they believe it—I proclaim to them that through their belief, their sins are remitted! If they reject it, I proclaim God’s message to them that they are still in their sins.

  8. osbornekristen said,

    June 18, 2009 at 10:01 pm

    Shem,
    I never said that Peter had the power to “bind” anyone. Because of his faith, he was simply the person chosen to be the head/foundation/leader of the church, who was called to lead the “Great Commission,” which was spreading the Gospel of Christ throughout the nations. Jesus is the only one who has any authority to bind anyone to Him. The church, or body of believers, was commissioned by Christ to tell others the “Good News” about how they could obtain eternal life or be “bound” to Him (Christ). Yes, Peter and the other apostles baptized but their authority was from Jesus himself. They could do nothing on their own. Everything they did was in Jesus’ name. Peter did not “choose” who to bind or save. The people chose to accept Christ based on the teachings they learned from Peter and others whose work it was to share it. Peter has bound no one to Christ…..he was commissioned to be the founding head of the body of believers who were to show others the way to Christ Jesus. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail against this body of believers…..meaning that there has and will never be a complete apostasy. The same church that Peter founded is the same church that Jesus will return for. It has never been removed from the earth and will not be until Christ comes. It is not a particular denomination, but a body of believers who have been bound to the Lord by their faith and trust in His power to save.

    On Marriage……
    Lds.org says, “The covenant of eternal marriage is necessary for exaltation. The Lord revealed through Joseph Smith: “In the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees; and in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood [meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage]; and if he does not, he cannot obtain it. He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase” (D&C 131:1–4).”

    I suppose this means that Paul and even Jesus didn’t make the cut into the celestial kingdom because neither were married or sealed to spouses on earth. Paul even encourages people who have the strength to abstain from sexual sin to remain unmarried:

    1 Corinthians 7:8 “I say therefore to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them if they abide even as I. 9But if they cannot contain, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn.” He goes on to say, 37″Nevertheless he that standeth stedfast in his heart, having no necessity, but hath power over his own will, and hath so decreed in his heart that he will keep his virgin, doeth well. 38So then he that giveth her in marriage doeth well; but he that giveth her not in marriage doeth better.

    Paul says that there is nothing wrong with marriage and that it is fine and good for some. It is better to be married if one cannot stay pure otherwise. But, if a man can be celibate and unmarried without falling into sexual sin……then it is even better. So, it seems Paul thinks the most righteous thing to do is to remain unmarried with the sole purpose to live for Christ. Is Paul right or is Joseph Smith because they say opposite things but both claim that they were told this by the Spirit?

    If marriage is a requirement for the celestial kingdom……or “increase” (which I assume is populating a planet with spirit children), then there is no way Paul or many of the other followers of Christ are “gods” with spirit children.

    You said that it makes sense that that Adam and Eve’s eternal marriage relationship would return to the state as it was in garden. Genesis Chapter 4:1 explains that Adam and Eve did not have sexual relations or conceive children until after they left the garden and their “eternal state.” So apparently, were no “marital relations” in Eden. So, if our eternal relationships are like theirs in the garden……then we won’t share the same sexual intimacy that we do on earth. Thus, how are more “spirit children” created? I am not poking fun……I am just asking.

    If you and your wife have both accepted Christ as your Savior, then you will be together in Heaven. But, I don’t think the relationship will be quite the same. The eternity that awaits believers is so far beyond anything we could ever fathom. Frankly, I believe that Heaven is all about worshiping God and celebrating his love, power and mercy….it is not about gaining “increase” for ourselves. I am not worried at all about the sexual or marital relationship I will have with my hubby as I believe it will be irrelevant and is only a gift for this earthly life. I am excited beyond all imagination about spending eternity with Christ and being his bride (not in a literal/sexual sense of course). This is just my opinion, but I believe that when Adam and Eve were living in the garden walking with God, even though they were naked, there were better and more fulfilling things to do than sex. Apparently, it never crossed their minds until they were forced to leave God and the wonders of Eden.

    I would like to add that all of the references for the word marriage on lds.org refer to the D&C and not the Bible. There are a few scripture references at the bottom…one of which is from the Bk of Mormon, but I believe the 3 mentioned have been taken completely out of context.

    Again, please answer my question as to how a husband and wife or even children who have been “sealed” can spend eternity together if all might not have the same level of righteousness or share the same amount of good works. If they have been sealed for all time and eternity, then it seems that a child or even one spouse could live however they wish and depend on their family to get them into the highest level. Or, a spouse might have to stay in a lower kingdom due to the unworthiness of another member. Please explain.

  9. geoff456 said,

    June 19, 2009 at 10:28 am

    Good Luck Shem!

    Untangling these twisted doctrines would take the patience of Job! I don’t have the patience.

    I would like to say to LDSW: Why can’t I be a “father” to my children for eternity??? You have that wrong. No where in LDS doctrine does it say that I won’t be. My dad is still important to me even though I am not dependent on him for my welfare. And you admit yourself that you don’t know the mind and will of God…well, I think that applies to “bound on earth, and bound in heaven.” I don’t think you understand the power of God and the priesthood. The power to bind is the sealing power used by Elijah and others. Whether it is used to seal the heavens against rain and cause a drought or to seal a family to eachother and that same family to the Lord, it is all the same power. It is on the earth today.

    To KO: There will be ample time for your mother in law to dump her husband and get someone who will tow the line during the Millenium. Perhaps “Dad” will clean up his act, and perhaps he won’t. What ever the case, God would not keep HER out because of HIM. There will just be another HIM available. Same with kids. If they don’t keep the commandments, they are cut loose. No guarantees unless you keep the commandments. The Lord is bound WHEN we do what he says, otherwise we are on our own.

    Also, sex is not just “something” to do. It is divinely appointed for procreation and was necessary so that each of us could be born. Adam and Eve were in a state of innocence and CHOSE to accept mortality and all its consequences. It had to be their choice so that they could progress and reap the benefits of their choice. If it were FORCED upon them, they would not be responsible for their decisions, nor would they reap the rewards. God puts a high priority on free agency….and it all started in the Garden of Eden. And Shem is correct; Adam and Eve were married in the Garden by God…it was intended to be eternal…. and sex was appropriate and approved. It was not a “sin”.
    Geoff

  10. catzgalore said,

    June 19, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Aside from the above questions, eternal families don’t really make sense to me. If you AND your spouse are worthy, then you will get to be together. Each of your earthly children will be in a different family, having been sealed to their spouses. So you don’t really get to live with your children?
    And say a man and a woman are sealed for eternity. What if the man dies and the woman remarries? Which one gets to spend eternity with her? Will she have two husbands, or is the one that died gone forever? Is he still saved?
    If young children and those with mental deficiencies go straight to heaven, is it the highest one? What about the rule that you have to be married? Is it suspended? Why?
    I just keep thinking. Your reward is also dependent on how faithful your spouse is. If THEY fail but you don’t, then where are you?
    You can’t answer all those I know. Don’t try. Just think of them as the reasons why I can’t agree with marriage in time and eternity, as glorious and wonderful as that might sound.

  11. osbornekristen said,

    June 19, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Geoff,
    WOW! So much for the whole being “sealed for all time and eternity” thing! So, you just dump your spouse and find someone better if they aren’t living up to your same standards? Where in the world did you come up with this? Either your temple marriage is eternal or it is not. 1 Corinthians 7:13 says, 13And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. The Bible says that the believing spouse must not leave her unbelieving husband.

    And boy, Jesus sure thought differently about wayward children. The parable of the Prodigal sons explains that Our Heavenly Father NEVER turns his back on his children that have strayed. He is always axiously awaiting their return to Him.

    Seriously, these are some of the most unloving….uncaring words that I have ever heard. Geoff, by your statement that their are “No guarantees unless you keep the commandments,” I really, really feel so sad for you. I pity you and wish you knew the wonderful gift of grace. You have NOT kept all of the commandments……neither has your wife or your children (if you have them). Your family is not perfect…….the only way to perfection to be pure enough for God is that Jesus stands in our place.

    I am shocked……really shocked by your trite comments about dumping the spouse and children you have pledged to love and be with forever. This is certianly not what is taught in Ephesians 5 when Christ tells us to love our spouse as he loves the Church. I sure hope your wife is living right…..and that your children never stray………do they know that you have plans to “dump” them if they don’t? Your words make the “sealing for eternity” thing seem like a joke. Really! You accuse me of getting things twisted. I am glad to know the truth of what “eternal marriage” really means to you.

  12. geoff456 said,

    June 19, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    KO,

    whoa girl! You are the one who espouses sending non-believers straight to hell and you think my words are harsh?
    If both people in a covenant do NOT live up to the demands of a covenant, then it is not effectual. Can you see that? If your father in law does not love the Lord enough to keep the commandments, and does not love and honor his wife enough (evidenced by the fact that he thinks the temple is hooey and he can’t live the word of wisdom) then their “contract” is null and void. SHE will not be penalized by HIS lack of faith. You asked! You wanted to wax emotional about HER getting sent to a “lower level” because of him. It is the same with kids. What if your kids go off the deep end…..do you think they will be in heaven with you? I think not.

    Why be “shocked”? I am not talking about our earth life. There is plenty of time on earth for all to repent. I am not advocating grandpa getting dumped now (although it sounds like he is asking for it, AND I would EXPECT my wife to dump me if I didn’t keep my covenants.) …..but if repentance doesn’t happen, then the contract is null and void. Ever hear of “endure to the end”? well, it applies here too.

    And what in the world makes you think that I don’t believe in grace? LDS people believe in grace and mercy. We need it, too. I will be judged by my Lord who knows my heart. Jesus took my sins upon himself when He suffered and died. My repentance enables me to take advantage of that blessing. Please don’t feel sorry for me in the least. You have it ALL wrong.
    You probably couldn’t have twisted it any worse if you had tried!! 🙂

    thanks for the entertainment. wild accusations make me miss my mom!

    geoff

  13. geoff456 said,

    June 19, 2009 at 7:15 pm

    Catz,

    I thought things couldn’t get any more confusing and then I read your post.

    But, I guess you don’t really understand it all because you have never been taught. You have undoubtedly picked things up here and there and they don’t fit together for you. The reason that is this: You do not have the whole picture. You are working a jigsaw puzzle with about half of the pieces missing.

    I DO feel like answering you because you are so confused, so here goes:

    “If you AND your spouse are worthy, then you will get to be together.”

    TRUE.

    “Each of your earthly children will be in a different family, having been sealed to their spouses.”

    KIND OF TRUE….just like now, you don’t live with your children…are you any less their parent??? If you “earn a ticket” to the celestial kingdom, you will have the privilege of freely being with them. You could always “travel” down to a lower kingdom to visit someone, but those who do not qualify can not “travel up”.

    “So you don’t really get to live with your children?”

    SEE ABOVE.

    “And say a man and a woman are sealed for eternity. What if the man dies and the woman remarries?”

    The woman can choose for herself. She can be married for time only (just on earth, which is what many 2nd marriages are) or she can get a cancellation of sealing to the first spouse (especially in cases of abuse or adultery) and be sealed to the second.

    “Which one gets to spend eternity with her?”

    If she chooses him and he chooses her, they can be together. You can’t force someone to be “sealed” to you. I can’t just up and decide to be sealed
    to Martha Washington.

    “Will she have two husbands, or is the one that died gone forever?”

    Death does not break a sealing….that is the whole point. She will have one husband of her own choice….but she needs to have been lawfully married to him on earth.
    “Is he still saved?”

    His salvation is wholly dependent on his actions on earth.

    “Each woman gets one husband.”

    Eventually each woman will get to be sealed to one husband. Multiple sealings may take place by proxy in the temple, but she will choose one.

    “If young children and those with mental deficiencies go straight to heaven, is it the highest one? ”
    Heavenly Father is above all fair and loving. I believe that everyone will have an opportunity to marry and have a family. This will probably be taken care of during the Millenium when we will all live on earth with the Savior as our King.

    “What about the rule that you have to be married?” In order to have an increase (procreate) one must be married. It is really the same law that exists for us on earth. People really are supposed to be married before they have children. It sure doesn’t happen that way much anymore.

    “Is it suspended? ”

    No, God is the same yesterday, today and forever.

    “Why?”

    Because.

    “I just keep thinking. Your reward is also dependent on how faithful your spouse is.”

    NOT QUITE TRUE. If your spouse is not faithful to you or to his covenants then HE is not saved. That in NO WAY affects your salvation. If you choose to be faithful then you will have other opportunites to marry and find someone who will be. It, of course, is a sad thing. Just think about your mother in law. She (I presume) married someone to whom she was equally yoked. Someone to whom the Gospel meant something. He has changed. It is not fair to her, but it happened. So, if he gets “dumped”, it is his own fault. It is always a heart-breaking thing for anyone to not live up to his potential. It makes me sick when I read about “word of wisdom” problems. Someone has sold their soul for the sake of booze? Or worse yet something as lame as coffee? What a waste.

    “If THEY fail but you don’t, then where are you?”

    The Lord will always honor his covenants. YOU will be fine.

    “You can’t answer all those I know.”

    “Don’t try.”
    Sorry, i just had to.

    “Just think of them as the reasons why I can’t agree with marriage in time and eternity, as glorious and wonderful as that might sound.”

    Funny thing. You don’t believe in it, don’t even seem to want it, yet you are put off by our doctrine because you think it doesn’t sound fair?

    One of the most beautiful doctrines of our Lord’s Church is eternal marriage and forever families. I love my family too much to let them go at death. My covenants bind me to the Lord and bind US together. We are His. That is glorious news!! I am really sorry you missed out on it. Maybe the reason your husband didn’t stay LDS is because your father in law didn’t believe it from the beginning? could be. sad, sad, sad.

    Well, hope this helped you understand the doctrine a little better,
    ~Geoff

  14. geoff456 said,

    June 19, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    Catz,

    I just realized that I mixed your “story” with KO’s.

    Sorry! I have a hard time keeping you gals straight sometimes.

    ~Geoff

  15. shematwater said,

    June 19, 2009 at 8:22 pm

    KO

    You didn’t, but the scripture did. Christ tells Peter that he has the keys of the kingdom, and what he bound would be bound. He doesn’t say, “and what I tell you to bind.” Peter is not made a key rack for the Lord’s use. He is given the power of the Priesthood to seal in heaven what he seals on earth.

    Now, as to Paul and Christ.
    First, one question: Where does it say that Christ was not married? I really don’t want to get into this, as I had my fill on other blogs, but does it ever really say he wasn’t? I know the argument that the Bible would say so as it would be important, but that is not proof. It is subjective reasoning. I do not say he was or wasn’t, and can give arguments either way.
    However, even if he wasn’t that doesn’t really matter. His particular calling may have made such impossible. Thus, like all the rest who never had the chance to marry in this life, he will marry in the Milenium.

    As to Paul, I suggest you read the Corinthian quotes again. In chapter 7, verse 6 he tells us that what he is saying is not the will of God. He is speaking his own thoughts, which he has received permission to speak. In verse 10 he states that the command to those who are married is from God. Then in verse 12 he reiterates the fact that to the unmarried it is he who is speaking and not god.
    Thus, this not being the will of God, but the oppinion of man, it is not the best argument to use.
    I would also ask why Paul includes widows in this statement of his (verse 7). From all that I have read it seems more likely that Paul was married, but that either his wife was dead at this time, or she had not converted and refused to go with him.

    GEOFF

    Thanks for the support. It would make things a lot easier if they would actually ask questions instead of stating false information as fact. Also, simplicity, whenever possible, would be very much appriciated.

  16. osbornekristen said,

    June 19, 2009 at 10:43 pm

    Geoff,
    Actually, my hubby is standing here and he would like to answer the question as to why he left the LDS church. He left because he realized that the Bible is absolute TRUTH…..the Word of God…period. He realized that you can’t believe in the Bible as Truth and believe Mormon doctrine. They teach very conflicting things. He met Christ in a real, intimate and personal way and came to understand that there is NOTHING he could ever do to earn his salvation or his place in a particular kingdom. He came to know the wonderful gift of true, free grace. He spent his young adult life thinking that only perfection would give him eternal life with Christ. Now, he knows that it is only because he has been saved and has been sanctified by the Holy Spirit and has the Spirit living in him that he can live a life which glorifies the Lord. And, he does live His life for the Lord…..very passionately! Every good work he does is not to glorify himself but to please and honor the one who has paid his debt in full.

    He also wanted me to tell you that his father began doubting the LDS church when he became a Mason and realized that the Mormon Temple ceremonies (which he has experienced first had) copy many, many things from the Masons. He was shocked when he witnessed first hand how obvious it was. His father never grew up in chuch, so he really doesn’t think the LDS church’s doctrine is that different from other denominations…..because he has known nothing else. Honestly, he knows it would be easier if he could just make himself believe that Joseph Smith was a true prophet and attend church with his wife……but he can’t because he knows in his heart that Smith was not. He does go to church events such as local mission projects and family events…..just not to services where doctrine or Mormon scriptures are taught. He has NO reason to want to be against the Mormon Church. He NEVER speaks badly of LDS or even mentions it. He shared some things with my hubby because my hubby asked him why he was inactive and about his relationship with Christ.

    When I say that he doesn’t keep the word of wisdom……I am not talking about booze….he NEVER drinks alcohol. He is a good man, a kind man, a wonderful grandfather, father and loving spouse. He just can’t believe what he knows is deception and we are VERY thankful that God has given Him wisdom to see the Truth. Unfortunately, my mother-in-law (who by the way refuses tea but loves her caffinated sodas!) gets very upset when he accepts our invitations to attend church with us and his grandchildren. She would rather him not go anywhere if he does not go with her. So this year at Christmas, the two of them sat at home (because at the last minute she guilted him out of going) while all of their grandchildren and children went to our church and worshiped and praised God for sending His ONLY son.

    My hubby is right………there is no point in trying to make you see Biblical truths when you are more interested in the words created by mere men. It is all so mixed up…..really. Frankly, all this eternal marriage stuff gets crazier and crazier as I hear you explain it. Believe what you wish about it……..I hope you enjoy creating lots of spirit babies with your eternal wife or wives. I trust that there are epidurals and no C-sections in the Celestial Kingdom or she may dump you 🙂 I, however, plan on spending eternity worshiping and praising the Lord with those that I love. Maybe if you get to take a break from ruling your planet you can join us.

    Only the Holy Spirit can show you truth. I pray that when the Spirit knocks on her heart you will listen.

  17. catzgalore said,

    June 20, 2009 at 11:46 am

    Shem– you said– (to Geoff)
    Thanks for the support. It would make things a lot easier if they would actually ask questions instead of stating false information as fact. Also, simplicity, whenever possible, would be very much appriciated.

    Actually, Shem, if we had come to YOUR blog to ask questions, then you might have a reason to say what you did. THIS blog is to glorify Jesus and Him crucified, and celebrate the free grace He has given. It is not designed as a forum for you to reach the “lost”.

    We have asked plenty of questions. For examples, see the thread above! See the answers on Geoff’s post, above. And the reason I reject the doctrines is not because it doesn’t sound fair, Geoff, but that the Bible doesn’t support it. Even though I have prayed that God would show me truth, He keeps bringing Joseph’s 30 wives to mind, or the “translating” with seer stones in a hat (and I know, the church is downplaying that stuff now). Then Geoff’s post about eternal marriage:
    ***
    To KO: There will be ample time for your mother in law to dump her husband and get someone who will tow the line during the Millenium. Perhaps “Dad” will clean up his act, and perhaps he won’t. What ever the case, God would not keep HER out because of HIM. There will just be another HIM available. Same with kids. If they don’t keep the commandments, they are cut loose. No guarantees unless you keep the commandments. The Lord is bound WHEN we do what he says, otherwise we are on our own.
    ***
    That just turned my stomach. From this, it seems that the main purpose in life is supposed to be to look for a mate so I can get to heaven. But I shouldn’t worry about it, I’ll have plenty of time during the millenium. And how secure can a marriage be if you know you will get tossed out if you don’t toe the line? Sealing is for time and eternity, but that’s conditional. If you are good enough, then your spouse may keep you. If you aren’t, you are out the door! If you can’t have children for some reason, should you divorce? And if your first spouse (that you have children with) dies, then if you decide to remarry you have to give up the first husband? If you remarry, how are your children going to feel knowing that their father can’t be with them for eternity because you chose someone else?

    And about mentally handicapped…
    My question: What about the rule that you have to be married? Is it suspended? Why?
    “Your answer: No, God is the same yesterday, today and forever. My question: “Why?” Your answer: “Because.”

    That isn’t an answer. That makes no sense. If God wants us to make sure that we are married with children here in this life, then why does he create those who can’t for one reason or another? Did they do something in the spirit world to deserve that? Or, as you say, there will be time in the millenium, then why care now?

    As for simple, how can this be simple? The BoM adds so much, restates it, turns it into something far different than what Jesus taught. If you can’t see that, it is as Kristen says, the Holy Spirit hasn’t shown you.

  18. shematwater said,

    June 20, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    OSBORNEKRISTEN

    I would love to discuss the Bible, and use only the Bible to show the support for LDS doctine. I have already done so when it comes to eternal families, but what else did you have in mind?
    I am all for discussing things using only the Bible. The problem with this is that most Christians don’t want to discuss the Bible. they want to discuss their interpretation of the Bible, and if you try to calmling, and politely point out that there are other interpretation that are possible they deny it, claiming that it is not possible, that we are twisting the scriptures. Of course that is completely stupid and ignorant, but hey, if it isn’t true it might force you to question your beliefs.

    I find this unwillingness to even see the possibilty highly annoying. I know a great deal of your beliefs (at least the basics), and I can see everyone in the Bible. All I ask is that you try to see where I am coming from. I really don’t care if you say that my interpretation is wrong, as long as you admit that it might be possible.
    Few christians are willing to do this. Of those that are most do so in the most insulting way possible, like “I guess, if you really twist it, it could mean that.” I do not twist anything.

    So, give me one LDS doctrine, and I will do my best to explain it using only the Bible.

  19. geoff456 said,

    June 20, 2009 at 9:36 pm

    catz and KO,

    Live and let live, I always say! Hey, I was just answering questions and TRYING to explain things to you. ….but I don’t think you really want to know. It is more fun (?) to have your own beliefs about what WE believe.

    so, don’t let me spoil the party!

    and Shem…you are great!

    ~geoff

  20. catzgalore said,

    June 20, 2009 at 10:00 pm

    The Bible is correct as long as it is correctly translated. Can you find me something in the Bible that says that?

  21. catzgalore said,

    June 21, 2009 at 8:01 am

    Post # 19 is another example of turning to personal attack when you don’t know the answer. 🙂
    Geoff, may God have mercy on you, show you HIS truth, shower you with blessings, and may His grace fall upon you, because that’s all any of us have, purely His grace and mercy.

  22. catzgalore said,

    June 21, 2009 at 8:19 am

    I went to the lds site this morning and found a beautiful tribute to someone’s dad. Geoff, THIS is a good example of what a marriage should be like– and it’s from your church.
    Happy Father’s Day.

  23. geoff456 said,

    June 21, 2009 at 1:26 pm

    KO,

    I re-read your post to my wife and we had a few questions.

    First one is actually to Catz, regarding the post directed to you:

    1. Did you read my explantation about the Millenium being the time that children and handicapped individuals will get a chance to marry? my wife thinks you must have missed it or you wouldn’t have made that “sassy” (my word, not hers) comment. (she always looks for the good in people 🙂 )

    OK, now to KO:

    2. Did “Dad” ever think that maybe the Masons copied the Mormons? Satan is alive and well out there and he is a master deceiver. But, since I have never been a Mason (just love the National Treasure Movie), then I would not know what the Masons do anyhow. I sincerely doubt there is much similarity.

    3. Can you give one example of where the Bible and the Book of Mormon conflict? That one stumped us. BEcause of course, we don’t see any conflict!

    4. We are curious as to the Word of Wisdom problem? Not booze, then what?

    5. Is your husband an only child? Or are there siblings who are or are not LDS?

    thanks,

    my wife says hi…her name is Vonnie.

    Geoff

  24. catzgalore said,

    June 22, 2009 at 12:35 am

    1. MY sassy comment? How about your many sassy comments, LOL? You never really answered my question. Why would God create someone who could not marry if that’s the whole purpose for our being here? I did not miss that. I just think it doesn’t make sense. If the millenium is when we get a second chance, why care in this life?

    Vonnie, did you read post #9? Did you realize that if you don’t toe the line then you might get kicked out so he could find someone that will? I sure hope you can be perfect enough for him!

    I really enjoyed the Father’s Day message on the lds site this morning. There is someone who would rather honor his vows and really loves his wife instead of abandoning her because she is not perfect!

  25. catzgalore said,

    June 22, 2009 at 7:29 am

    There’s something to back up with biblical scriptures. The millenium.
    The Bible says, “It is appointed unto man once to die and then the judgement” (Hebrews 9:27). It doesn’t say first you die, and then you get another chance, and then you go to heaven. This life matters! Most Christians agree that whenever the millenium is, it is NOT a time of second chances. In fact, most Christians don’t even agree what it is at all! It is obvious that correct belief about the millenium is not a salvation requirement. But Smith’s interpretation that it is a time for second chances doesn’t fit.

    If this were a contest, I win both times, don’t I? If Smith’s (or whoever got that revelation) I would get another chance at deciding later. But if the Bible is right, and we don’t get a second chance, I am already prepared. But not because of me. It is because of JESUS and His love for me! If you ask Him, He will make it clear. NOT through your feelings, but through the Word of the Lord, the Bible. I know that you have some way to talk out of that verse and interpret it “correctly” as you have other verses before. After all, Paul was just a man. But I pray that God would find a chink in your LDS armor and show you Himself.

    Thank you, by the way. All this is really making me pray and study more. I have a lot to learn.

  26. shematwater said,

    June 22, 2009 at 11:10 am

    CATZGALORE

    You really don’t understand. The Milenium is not where you get a second chance, but where those who did not get the chance now get their first chance. One who dies as a child never had the chance to marry, they did not yet have this first chance. Thus, as God is just, he will provide them with the opportunity to get that first chance.

    Personally I have to agree with GEOFF. You don’t seem to really want us to explain the doctrine of the church. I don’t think that it is because it is more fun to believe that we believe differently. I think it is because much of it is difficult for you to understand, and you do not want to put the effort into it. It is easier to say I do not understand so I will not believe.

    Me and Geoff have given very precise and accurate explanations of everything you have asked. As is always the case, this has brought more questions to mind, which we tried to answer again. I am willing to explain it all to you, if you are willing to listen (but I do not know it all yet, and probably won’t in this life).

    If you really won’t to know I would suggest that you refrain from trying to prove us wrong. If you want to know what we believe it does not matter if it is wrong, only that we believe it. If you want to know why we believe it, it does not matter why others do not.
    These are the things that make both me and Geoff think you don’t really want to understand. Everytime we explain something that is difficult to understand you come back with an attempt to prove it wrong.

    On a final note, the Hebrew scripture you quote, as far as I am concerned, is frequently taken out of context. This discourse is about Christ, and why he could only make one sacrifice (or atonement). To say that there is no chance after this life is to contradict Peter who tells us in 1 Peter 3: 19-20 that Christ himself preached to the spirits of those who lived in the days of Noah. Peter also tells us in 1 Peter 4: 6 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” Isaiah prophecied that Christ would preach deliverance to the captive (24: 22, 49: 9, 61: 1-2). Thus we see that Christ himself went to teach the spirits of the wicked, those who were gathered into the prison. If there was no hope why did he teach them, and how were they delivered?

  27. shematwater said,

    June 22, 2009 at 11:18 am

    Geoff

    It is great to read your posts too. It is always better to have two then one.

  28. geoff456 said,

    June 22, 2009 at 3:19 pm

    Hi Catz and Kristen,

    This is Vonnie, Geoffrey’s wife. Sorry about the bad feelings building up here. If you could really know Geoffrey, you would see the twinkle in his eye as he writes this stuff. He really is a teddy bear.
    Anyway, I thought I would take a minute to answer some of the questions you posed…girl to girl. 🙂

    1. The Millinium isn’t the time for “second chances” in the sense that you can change your worthiness for salvation or exaltation. It is a time when there will be lots of things accomplished that can only be accomplished on “earth”, meaning ordinances that require someone to have a body…not just be a spirit. People that did not have the chance to marry, for example, will get the chance to marry. (or else God would not be fair, requiring marriage for the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom). Temple sealings are only done for people who were lawfully married on earth. You can see how unfair it would be for someone to live and die and never have the chance for marriage and a family and then have someone willy-nilly seal them to some stranger. So, during the Millinium, people will have the opportunity to marry and have children. Geoffrey didn’t word it very politely, but….if someone has failed to live up to their covenants and is not worthy of the celestial kingdom, there could be opportunities to be sealed to someone who is worthy. If ,for instance, my husband chose not to keep the commandments, my children and I could be sealed to someone else and he would in effect be cut out of the picture. It would ONLY happen of Geoffrey’s free will and choice. God does NOT force anyone to obey Him. I would not have the choice of cutting Geoffrey off just because I didn’t “like” him anymore. In that case, I would be cutting MYSELF off from Geoffrey and the Lord.

    Sealings are 3 way covenants.”husband-wife-Lord.” The Lord will always honor His commitment, we are the ones who are “iffy”.

    We believe that the ancient Apostles were given the keys of the priesthood after the transfiguration of Christ. He was basically passing on his priesthood authority to them in preparation for His leaving the earth. One of those keys involves “sealing”. Sealing families together is one of the main reasons we are on earth. We believe it was a power held by Elijah and in Malachi we are told that the day will come when “the hearts of the Fathers will be turned to the children, and the hearts of the children to the Fathers, lest the whole earth be smitten with a curse at His coming”. Our desire to be sealed together, and to seal our ancestors together is a direct fulfillment of that prophecy. Our hearts are turned to our fathers when we perform this work for them in the temple. One ordinance performed in the temple, baptism for the dead, is mentioned in the Bible. We believe these ordinances have been available to others who have lived on the earth WHEN the priesthood was here. Adam, Enoch, Noah, Seth, Moses, all had priesthood keys and had these same ordinances.

    Geoffrey and I have some personal experience with family members who do not appreciate our religion. It sometimes gets him a little frustrated. My mother in law has been a little harsh in her assessments at times. She takes simple differences between our religions and makes crazy statements that have been hurtful to our kids. You probably know from being related to LDS people that we are pretty normal. We like to do the same things you do. We worship the Lord, we serve one another and try our best to be a little better every day. If we goof up, we repent, ask forgiveness and then try to do better the next time. We are NOT perfect, we do NOT claim to be perfect, not do we expect others to be perfect. We rely on the grace of God just as you do. We know we don’t have the corner on the market for Love of God. We know our Christian neighbors are our friends and allies in this wicked world. Gee, you should have seen us campaigning for Sarah Palin! We love her! Sorry to say, I don’t think our Christian family members were very excited about Mitt Romney! Too bad, if only he were our President right now we would be headed out of this slump! We settled for John McCain…a sorry excuse for a Republican!
    OK, this turned into a novel! Sorry! But one more thing I would like to say. Blogs such as this that seek to point out “differences” in our religions are really not very helpful. Some former members of our Church are just not the best ones to shed light on what we really believe. I am sure you can understand that! I think that is Geoffrey’s pet peeve. He is a convert to the LDS church and sees right through some of the things that are said to stir up controversy between LDS and Non-LDS. Sorry if his attempts to explain things have seemed a little snotty at times. He is always surprised when one of you makes a comment that he is snotty or rude! He just doesn’t intend it that way, so he is surprised when it is taken that way. 🙂 (Oh, but did I mention he CAN be a little rude sometimes?? 🙂 just kidding, I love him!

    thanks for reading my novel!

    love,
    Vonnie

  29. catzgalore said,

    June 23, 2009 at 8:16 pm

    Thank you, Vonnie, for your post. I appreciate your trying to soften these guys. 🙂

  30. geoff456 said,

    June 24, 2009 at 2:54 pm

    You are very welcome! Did I answer any of your questions?

    Vonnie

  31. osbornekristen said,

    June 24, 2009 at 8:39 pm

    Geoff and Vonnie,

    I have not checked this blog for a while simply because the more I read about the beliefs of “real-live” Mormons…..the more concerned, saddened and anxious I become for my LDS family members and the more angry I become with Satan and his ability to use false prophets to deceive so many. It is hard for me to sleep at night…because I find the mistruths so unsettling. It is amazing how Satan takes a little truth and goodness and mixes it with deception.

    Again, while I KNOW Mormons to be some of the most loving, caring, sincere, moral people I have ever known….I am CERTAIN that they have been deceived. I believe that there are only 2 types of folks who become Mormons.
    1. Those who have known nothing but Mormonism (i.e.- grown up in a Mormon family…..like one of my best friends).
    2. Those who grew up not truly knowing what the Bible says (i.e.- Never studied the word for themselves and/or their parents never made Bible study/church a priority……like my in-laws) and were easily misled. There are many folks who attend church……but they do not have a relationship with the Lord and don’t spend time getting to know what His word says. Unfortunately, some parents do not spend time teaching their children the truth of God’s word so they can hide God’s word in their hearts and not become deceived. This is why Deuteronomy 11:18-20 tells us to: “Fix these words of mine in your hearts and minds; tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.”

    It is these people who are easily sucked into the LDS church. People who haven’t been taught or studied what the BIBLE says. In the Mormon church they find acceptance, kindness, love, friendship, warm-feelings, and help if they need it. They wonder, “how could such wonderful people be caught up in deception?” Their new LDS friends make them feel wanted, secure, loved. And, again they wonder, “these folks must be right…..they are just another Christian denomination anyway.” However, they are NOT right….their doctrine is based on the words of men…….not the word of God. Often, these new converts don’t even know what LDS really believe. They love all of the family stuff, the moral stuff and the fact that they are active in a church……..but they don’t understand or even know about MANY LDS beliefs………or how they differ from the Bible cause they don’t know the Bible!

    My mother-in-law did not grow up in church…..neither did my father-in-law. As a young wife and mother…..she began to search for a place to belong. She was “friended” by a Mormon and began attending a local ward. Knowing little to nothing of Biblical scripture, she joined. With no biblical knowledge either, her hubby began attending too. Like I said, it wasn’t until he became a Free-Mason that he knew for sure that everything Smith claimed to be “from God” was not.

    Again, he told my husband that it was MORE than evident to him (a temple-worthy Mormon, sealed for “all time and eternity” and also a new Free-Mason) that Smith had borrowed/stolen temple endowment ceremony ideas from the Masons. Again, he had no reason to doubt, no reason to want out of the LDS church, no reason to want to cause his wife shame or hurt……He just knew that Smith did not get that stuff from God.

    Free-Masons first became organized in 1717 in London. Smith did not do his first endowment ceremony until 1842……..just 2 months after becoming a Mason.

    In 1842 Smith became a Master Mason, as indicated by his journal entries:
    Tuesday, [March] 15. — I officiated as grand chaplain at the installation of the Nauvoo Lodge of Free Masons, at the Grove near the Temple. Grand Master Jonas, of Columbus, being present, a large number of people assembled on the occasion. The day was exceedingly fine; all things were done in order, and universal satisfaction was manifested. In the evening I received the first degree in Freemasonry in the Nauvoo Lodge, assembled in my general business office. (History of the Church, by Joseph Smith, Deseret Book, 1978, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.550-1)
    Wednesday, March 16. — I was with the Masonic Lodge and rose to the sublime degree. (History of the Church, Vol.4, Ch.32, p.552)

    On May 4, 1842, Smith instructed other Mormon leaders “in the principles of and order of the Priesthood, attending to washings, anointings, endowments, and the communication of keys pertaining to the Aaronic Priesthood, and so onto to the highest order of the Melchizedek Priesthood….” (History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 1, May 4, 1842). Cc

    Many of leaders of the LDS church were also Masons. Masons did not “steal” the ceremony rituals from the Mormon Church since the first records of ancient Free-Masons date back as early as the 1500’s in Scotland. My father-in-law knew this……and He knew Smith’s endowment ceremonies were simply a creative copy-cat version of what he had experienced in his own Mason ceremony.

    You asked about him breaking the Word of Wisdom. He drinks coffee and tea. He dips smokeless tobacco on occasion. I have to say that I find it intriguing that my mother-in-law thinks tea and coffee are from the Devil himself but she ALWAYS has a diet Dr. Pepper in hand and eats/feeds chocolate to my children as if it were oxygen. Coke/Pepsi products weren’t around during the 1800’s….if they were, I wonder what Smith would have said? What is the difference…..caffeine is caffeine? The Bible tells us that our body is a temple……so of course we do need to take care of it. ( Which means that one should stay away from lots of burgers and fries too.) However, it also says, “8But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.” 1 Cor 8:8

    Romans 14 also states that 17For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 18For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men. 19Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.” Meaning, what we eat and drink are not important to God……but if someone else thinks it is (aka my mother-in-law) then we should keep peace by not partaking of these things in front of them. In essence, don’t make a big deal about things that aren’t a big deal to God……just try to maintain peace. This is why I would NEVER order a glass of wine in front of my mother-in-law or even drink tea when I’m with her. I don’t think either of these things are wrong from a biblical perspective, but I know that God would want me to respect her and not rock the boat.

    Another question was whether my hubby’s siblings are still LDS. No. My brother-in-law is not active in any church. Unfortunately, my mother-in-law tried to teach him religion but never taught him about having a “relationship” with Jesus. He does not have a personal relationship with Christ. He sees religion as having to be perfect and does not know the free gift of Grace. We pray that, like my husband, he will one day come to understand that it is ALL about Jesus and not about trying to prove that he is worthy.

  32. catzgalore said,

    June 25, 2009 at 9:25 am

    Vonnie, about the millenium… this is what Geoff said–
    “The Milenium is not where you get a second chance, but where those who did not get the chance now get their first chance. One who dies as a child never had the chance to marry, they did not yet have this first chance. Thus, as God is just, he will provide them with the opportunity to get that first chance.”

    If the whole purpose of being on this earth is to get married and have children, they why did they not have their first chance the first time? It really IS like getting a second chance. The first time they did not have the resources, but they were still THERE…and if God was being fair He would have provided the resources to do what is asked of them. If I went to the airport with someone to watch them skydive but did not go because I did not have the money (did not have the resources), that would be my first chance. If I go back to the airport with money and actually got to go, that would be my SECOND chance.
    All this is just words. TO ME, what Geoff is saying doesn’t make sense. It isn’t about US having a chance to be good enough. It is about JESUS being good enough in our place. We can’t know why things happen certain ways, or why sometimes children don’t get to grow up, or why some people are born with handicaps. God has His reasons. The only chance we have is putting our faith in JESUS who has already done what needs to be done!

  33. geoff456 said,

    June 25, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    Hi Kristen,

    This is Vonnie. I don’t have my own sign in, so I will just borrow Geoffrey’s.

    You have brought up some interesting points and questions. I appreciate the way you treat your mother in law and give deference to her beliefs. That speaks highly of your character. 🙂

    About Joseph and the Masons. I know without any doubt whatsoever that Jesus Christ stands at the head of our church. I did grow up with the Gospel, but I went away to college (not church owned) and faced alot of opposition and I had to find out for myself. And I did. Not all LDS families are lax in educating their children. We read the the Bible and the Book of Mormon. My father is expert in both. He teaches us still. The Bible and the Book of Mormon are complimentary. They have the same author. This is not just my opinion. This commonality is the reason thousands of people join the LDS church every year. Back to Joseph: Yes, he was a mason. I don’t personally know much about them, but I do know that temple ceremonies have been around since the beginning of time. Perhaps the Masonic ceremonies are a remnant of the ORIGINAL temple ceremonies from the days of Christ. Having been to the temple many hundreds of times, I just know that it is of God. Joseph didn’t make it up. Joseph was an uneducated man…having only a 6th grade education. He was known by all as an honest, upright man. He gained NOTHING (well, except for eternal life) monetarily from his calling as prophet. His life was he**! Many people who were once enemies were almost instantly made friends because of his kind, gentle nature. He was brought up on dozens of charges, but always aquitted. He was defended by famous lawyers who honored him in written word after his death. He was simply what he professed to be. A Prophet of God.

    Our church teaches, even STRESSES a personal relationship with God and Christ. That is the focus of every activity and meeting. Every auxillary within the Church has the goal to bring people to Christ. I guess some people can fall between the cracks, but it is not a regular occurance. I think that your father in laws early “suspicions” may have kept him from being the leader in his home he could have been. Maybe that is why the Gospel was not taught in its fulness. If he couldn’t reconcile his beliefs, maybe he just shut down? I guess we don’t know that for sure.

    About the Word of Wisdom. It was given to Joseph Smith when he asked the Lord’s direction concerning the smoking and chewing (and spitting) that were going on during meetings. It seemed to Joseph that it was “beneath” a true saint. He was given the “Word of Wisdom, designed for even the weakest of saints”. In the 1830’s there wasn’t much medical evidence to prove what we know now. It was just a “suggestion” during the early days of the church and then became a commandment when the Saints were sufficiently established to receive it. The Lord teaches “line upon line, precept on precept”.
    And It has a lot to do with obedience. Do we have the faith to follow commandments? I would say that it is a commandment with a promise. I have never been challenged by it, but Geoffrey’s family deals with so many issues that could have been totally avoided if they lived it’s principles. This whole world would be better off to live by it! It truly is a word of wisdom from an All-Knowing, Loving God! What a blessing it is!
    It IS a “step up”. Perhaps some would say that it is part of the “fulness” of times. We are living in the final dispensation before the Savior comes again, and there will be much required of us to prepare ourselves for His coming.
    I would think that He would expect us to do everything we can to be ready to receive Him. Drunk, addicted people aren’t thinking about God, they are thinking about themselves!

    Your last comment was interesting to me.

    “We pray that, like my husband, he will one day come to understand that it is ALL about Jesus and not about trying to prove that he is worthy.”

    Perhaps you have misunderstood the “worthy” thing with LDS.
    Let me explain a little: We are taught to obey God. We are taught to obey Christ. We are taught to keep the commandments with exactness and honor. All of this shows our love for God and our Savior! Afterall, The Savior said, “If you LOVE me, keep my commandments”. As we “keep” His commandments, we are “worthy”. We believe in repentance (because we know that we sin), we believe in forgiveness (because we know He loves us), we believe in working hard to be better, (because He has asked us to)…..all things that I bet YOU believe in too!! We call it being “worthy”. Is is just possible that it is a matter of semantics that separates us? I think so! Believe me when I say, with us it IS ALL ABOUT JESUS!

    I am sorry you have lost sleep worrying about family and friends. Maybe you should tell your LDS friend how you feel and let her explain how SHE feels!
    The LDS people as a whole are very well educated. I speak from my own experience when I say that I have not been “fooled”. Maybe we are seeing something you are missing? I would be happy to address any concrete questions you have. The subjective ones are basically a matter of faith, and I can’t “transfer” my faith to you through a blog!
    There are, for any number of reasons, those who would bring down the church. They lie, misrepresent and contort the truth. Have you ever noticed that no one tries to disprove the Catholics? or the Methodists? or the Congregationalists? Maybe, just maybe, Satan is working over time to discredit the LDS church because he KNOWS what it really is. He tried to stop Joseph many times and the cause went forward! This is the stone cut out of the mountain without hands prophesied of! Satan can’t stop it!

    that is my testimony!

    love,
    vonnie

  34. shematwater said,

    June 25, 2009 at 4:32 pm

    I have a hard time believing you are truly concerned about the members of the LDS church when you insult them at every possible chance.
    There have been many ministers from other religions (including baptists, methodists, chatholics, and others) that have joined the LDS church. These were men well read in the Bible, and enjoying a close relationship with Christ. Yet they joined the LDS church and defended it the rest of their lives, some dieing for so doing.
    The only reason you believe as you do concerning the Membership of the LDS church is because it is the only way to justify over half of what you say, and I would guess more than half of what you think. You can justify yourself if we are all simply misled, if we don’t know and understand the Bible. You can justify yourself if there are none of us who have the intelligence to learn and understand our doctrine. You can justify yourself, and I think your own desire to disbelieve if you are supperior in your knowledge and understanding.
    The moment you even entain the thought that we are not all ignorant fools who have fallen for a clever trap you can no longer justify yourself.

    1 Cor 8: 8 is speaking about meat sacrificed to idols, not food in general. He is saying that it does not really matter if you do or do not eat meat that was sacrificed to idols, as long as you are not worshiping idols. However, he also warns not to do it around the weak, as they may take it as liscence to worship the idol.
    Romans 14: 17 is a better one, but even this is not what you make it out to be. This is teaching that if a person feels that eating a certain thing is wrong you should respect that and not serve it to them.

    Both these references are using the idea of food (clean and unclean) to illustrate the concept of respcting others beliefs, and avoiding the appearance of evil. They are not a liscence to consume anything you want, but a caution on how you consume what it is good.

    As to the Mason, the idea of them stealing it is a question reguarding the idea that it was an ordinance performed at the time of the Apostles, as Joseph Smith says. I would also ask you to show when he first spoke of the endowment ordinance, and not when he first performed one. This would be a greater proof for you.

  35. catzgalore said,

    June 26, 2009 at 10:03 am

    okay, there are other kinds of people that are LDS….. smart, intelligent, well spoken. Have studied hard. Many have even prayed about it. Many have felt the “burning in the bosom”. For some reason, they ended up in the Mormon church, because maybe someone couldn’t answer their questions, or they were attracted by the strong family emphasis, or they fell in love with a Mormon and there you are. I know God allows it for a reason. WE can’t understand His ways. We just get glimpses. It is only by His grace that we can know the truth.

    From a human standpoint, I admire the church. Its emergency preparedness is without peer. It focuses on the family and gives them all sorts of resources to be successful. It is a great organization, humanly speaking. What more could you want, to be part of an organization that seems to care so much, and take care of you (as long as you are faithful)?

    One thing I see is that the Mormon church can morph. What was true once is no longer true. What was once taught by prophets is now refuted, and Mormons and Christians can’t really have meaningful dialogues because we aren’t speaking the same language! The church has rejected any historical things that are negative and made them go away. So how can you know the real truth? They have changed enough so now that they want to be considered Christian just like the other churches. These are the churches that were condemned by Joseph Smith! Why would the followers of a man who condemned “Christians” want to be considered almost the same as mainline Christianity?

    To our faces, we are Christians just like you. Sort of. We follow Jesus the Christ. But you don’t really mean it! Behind our backs (what is taught in the church) is that we don’t know the whole story, we don’t have the Fullness of the gospel. But it’s okay, we’ll get baptized by proxy into the church and have another chance to accept it, even though we don’t get to be in the highest heaven! Only LDS will be there, and only if they are married!

    If what is taught in the church has changed drastically over the years, how can you know the truth? How can you still consider a prophet a prophet when later another comes along and changes the prophecy?

    On the other hand, how can WE begin to understand where you are coming from? I as a Christian try to wade through the Book of Mormon (to give it a chance to explain itself instead of listening to what others have said) and I see confusion,ancient wordings, and things that make me incredulous that you can believe. Comparing the Book of Abraham with what it was supposed to improve showed me that the “corrections” didn’t make sense. What is the point, with most of them! And then I find something that is really incredulous–the Book of Mormon is more important, because it corrects the errors of the Bible! I hear about something that used to be taught (such as the hat issue and the men on the moon and sun) and then I find out it is now discounted for one reason or another!

    The main lds site taught me that there was a great apostasy, which makes all the great works of the reformation not valid! The Methodists, the Lutherans, the Presbyterians, are all apostatized. Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, David Brainerd… wonderful, inspiring sermons and books that glorify the Lord. And even Billy Graham doesn’t know the truth! Some backpeddle and tell me that they know the gospel, just not the FULL gospel. Those Pilgrims that risked their lives for religious freedom must have been wrong! They don’t have a chance to be with the Lord– oh, they do, as long as someone baptizes them by proxy into the mormon church! And then they don’t get to be in the HIGHEST heaven, because that’s reserved for people with spouses that accept Joseph Smith as a prophet!

    I read about the Journal of Discourses, which has things that former LDS prophets have taught that most Mormons don’t even know was taught! And the LDS site doesn’t even list “journal of discourses” at all ( I searched for it)! But it’s part of your church history! The answer I get (not on this blog) is that new revelations make the old ones irrelevant! To me that means, untrue. So if they are untrue, that means the one who said it is a false prophet! Does that mean the church is full of false prophets? Of course you don’t think so. Revelations just “change” and that doesn’t mean the old ones are untrue! What does it mean then?

    But Mormons seem to be taught well how to deflect the people that point out historical facts and how to rationalize them away. The church history is not the same as other historians have recorded it! It isn’t even the same as the church recorded it in the past! New editions change things! Do you have access to the “old” editions? Do church leaders encourage you to research your history, or read what the former prophets have said. ALL of what they said?

    So the major point of contention is– is Joseph Smith a real prophet? All other points are moot if he is not a true prophet. What we believe on individual issues is not as important as this question.

    How do we know that if different histories are conflicting? Believe the Mormon version, you say, and throw out all others. Fair enough. Read the authorized things of the church such as the Journal of Discourses (are they still authorized by your church since they are not listed on the lds site, or did I miss something??). Find out what your “prophets” have taught in the past (if you can) and see if they are still true! Dig into the church history and see what you can find.

    In the doctrine and covenants it says:
    3 Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, save Jesus only, for the salvation of men in this world, Doctrine and Covenants 135:3

    Contrast that with Paul’s attitude:
    “This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief .“—I Tim. 1:15.

    If I were a Mormon, I might not WANT to know the truth. Think of what it may mean! Ostracized by your family and friends, banned from gatherings, maybe even your marriage crumbling! Your spouse may try to turn your children against you. Your own mother may quit speaking to you! Having to admit that your family for GENERATIONS has been deceived. Who would WANT to know? It would be easier just to follow along and try not to think about it.

  36. catzgalore said,

    June 26, 2009 at 10:47 am

    When I found out that the Mormon publication “Journal and Discourses” are no longer listed on the lds.org site, I found this on Wikipedia:

    “The Journal of Discourses is not an official publication of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a compilation of sermons and other materials from the early years of the Church, which were transcribed and then published. It includes practical advice as well as doctrinal discussion, some of which is speculative in nature and some of which is only of historical interest. … Questions have been raised about the accuracy of some transcriptions. Modern technology and processes were not available for verifying the accuracy of transcriptions, and some significant mistakes have been documented. The Journal of Discourses includes interesting and insightful teachings by early Church leaders; however, by itself it is not an authoritative source of Church doctrine.”[4]

    And you wonder why Christians are confused about what is and was taught. It changes!

  37. applescrapper said,

    June 26, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    I can’t remember how I happened on this blog, but I just wanted to let you know that I so appreciate it and love reading it. I have really good friends of ours that are LDS and pray for them all the time that they will see the light of Christ and know what the bible truly says. I just wanted to thank you for this great site to read information. I also would enjoy any comments you might have on the book titled “the God Makers”, should you have any.

    God Bless you,
    Christine

  38. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    June 29, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Hi Christine,

    Thanks for your words. You ask a good question:
    I also would enjoy any comments you might have on the book titled “the God Makers”, should you have any.” I often have people ask me what I think of that book/movie.

    I absolutely hate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It gives false information about LDS beliefs and over sensationalizes Mormonism. It has done more damage for Christians trying to witness to Mormons than anything I know.

    I believe that a person can look to God’s Word to learn that this is not the way to witness to anyone. This book/movie does not show God’s love, as the Bible tells us to do. One of the best examples is in Acts 17 when the Apostle Paul comes into the city of Athens. In the NIV translation, it reads: “He was greatly distressed to see that the city was full of idols.

    Instead of going to the Athenians and chastising them (or making fun of them) for worshiping idols, he actually compliments them and uses one of their idols as an opportunity to witness to them: “Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.

    What a great example! We see many examples of this attitude of love in the New Testament. I try and follow the words of Paul: “Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.” (Ephesians 4:15)

  39. osbornekristen said,

    June 29, 2009 at 3:56 pm

    Vonnie,

    “We pray that, like my husband, he will one day come to understand that it is ALL about Jesus and not about trying to prove that he is worthy.”

    I said this because to Christians…….eternal life (living with God the Father in Heaven…what you might refer to as the Celestial Kingdom) is given as a FREE gift when one accepts Christ into his/her heart. We believe that Jesus literally stands in the place of ALL of our sins…meaning that NOTHING we could do here on earth (including temple ceremonies, missions, good works, etc) will bring us any higher up on the ladder to exaltation (which is a term I don’t even believe is for man…just God). Acceptance of His gift of grace= eternity with the Father…it is not just a doorway into a lesser paradise that then depends on works/or ceremonies to attain “greater glory.”

    I had a very emotional conversation with my mother-in-law about religion once. I asked her if she knew where she would spend eternity. She really couldn’t give me an answer…..that is because she isn’t sure herself. She did say, “I won’t make it to the Celestial Kingdom because I have done too many bad things in my life.” This is a faithful Mormon woman……once head of the relief society in her ward…..primary teacher…..feeder of missionaries…..Word of Wisdom keeper…sealed in temple wife….faithful food storer, etc. Yet, she believes that she may not be “good enough” to live with God.

    This is so far from what we as Christians believe in. Yes, I do attempt to live for Christ daily. I do want to glorify him with my life by following His commandments. But, the difference is that following His commandments does not glorify me at all. By accepting the Holy Spirit’s gift of grace, I HAVE all I need to live with my King forever. I don’t have to meet other requirements to be worthy to make it to the “top” in eternity. Jesus’ blood makes me worthy. My mother-in-law obviously believes that it is not ALL about Jesus…or she would know that He is enough.

    It is difficult to discuss what we Christians refer to as Eternal Security with Mormons because the terminology is so different. The gist of it is…….my hubby once thought that his salvation (ability to live with God forever at the “top”) was determined not only by his believing in Jesus……but also by meeting a set of requirements—priesthood, temple ceremonies, being “good enough,” mission work……etc. Now, he knows that it is ALL about what Jesus did and not about anything more that he can do.

    With this said, my hubby lives his life for Christ everyday. He leads youth bible studies, teaches his children about God, helps others, leads Christian retreats, etc. But, all of this is done simply out of love for what Jesus has ALREADY done for him…..not because it is necessary for his eternal “exaltation” or what we call salvation. That work was finished 2, 000 years ago on a cross.

    The whole “it’s all about Jesus” does differ between LDS and Christians. Mormons, like my M-in-L can’t truly give a solid, secure answer as to exactly where they will spend eternity. They can attempt to do all of the “right things” that the LDS doctrine teaches but can they really know for SURE what Kingdom they will make it to or what level their family members will achieve? Because Christians know that is ALL about Jesus……we KNOW where we will spend our days…….with our Heavenly King.

    Apostle Bruce R. McConkie said “a man may be damned for a single sin” (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary 3:257).

    President Spencer Kimball said that only those who are “living all the commandments” are guaranteed “total forgiveness of sins” and assured of “exaltation” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p.208).

    Spencer Kimball also taught that “each command we obey sends us another rung up the ladder to perfected manhood and toward godhood; and every law disobeyed is a sliding toward the bottom where man merges into the brute world” (Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, p.153).

    Can you account for every single sin you have ever committed? Are you living all of the commandments perfectly? If not, how can you be sure you are forgiven? Can you really be sure which “rung” you will be on when you die? I am glad my security depends on Jesus’ work alone. I am sad for those who do not have this assurance……I pray that they will put their hope only in Him and not in themselves.

  40. geoff456 said,

    June 29, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Hi Catz,

    It is me, Geoff, again. Vonnie is off being a grandma while our son and his wife travel with business….anyway, I thought i would take a stab at your questions…and or problems with “Mormonism”.

    I am going to make an assumption: Are you referring to the Blacks and the Priesthood when you say the church “changes”? If so, think of it this way. Before our children were 16 the answer to their question “can I go out with him?” Was NO! When they reached the age of 16 the answer changed somewhat…to “yes, as a group date” When they turned 18 the answer changed to “Yes”…actually by then they quit asking! 🙂 Did our “rule” change? You might say “yes”, but I would say no. It was the TIMING that changed. It is the same with the priesthood. It was always intended to change when the time was right. If there are other things that you think have changed, then please bring those to my attention.

    You asked if we “look into our history” and the answer is YES! I know of nothing in our history that I am ashamed of. Does that mean that individual members, or those claiming membership have lived perfect lives? No, it doesn’t. No organization can claim that. Joseph Smith was an honest, honorable man. He was what he purported to be. It would be very hard to change your mind about that because you have been poisoned by things you have read. Let’s just say this: would you want YOUR enemies to write your biography? I would not! There is plenty of evidence that he was a great man. We don’t need to read the garbage to understand his character. Also, about the quote from the Doctrine and Covenants concerning Joseph’s mission on earth: He DID do more save Jesus Christ than any other prophet that has lived on the earth. 2 + 2 = 4….but you have the right not to believe that too! Joseph is the Prophet of the Restoration. He even sealed his testimony with his blood. He gave ALL he had. How could ANYONE be critical of that? (I know some would compare the evil Al Qaida suicide bombers to Joseph..after all they gave their lives. Big difference. I hope you can recognize that.)

    I am somewhat of a Church History Buff. I study the Prophets (and all church history) alot! I have never once run into anything that bothered me….as a matter of fact I have very OFTEN been amazed at how in sync they are with the scriptures and each other, even over generations!
    Do you have anything specific you are bothered by? I would be interested. I am afraid you have been taught some nasty lies.

    On 24th of July we will celebrate Pioneer Day. It isn’t as big of an event in California as it is in Utah, but we still celebrate! Have you ever looked into the lives of the Pioneers? They suffered incredible trials for religious freedom. They would not have done it on a whim. They did it because of their total dedication to the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

    As for why LDS people like to be called “Christians”….we are Christians! Christians are people that follow Christ, and we are just that. We do not seek to be associated with any particular denominaton, but we ARE Christian.
    As for the “reformers”, they were inspired by God to do a great work! THAT is found in our history as well. They knew themselves that the authority for God’s work on earth was no longer on the earth, but did the best they could with what they had. Study up on their lives and see.This great country was prepared by the Lord for the great work of the restoration, too. The Revolutionary War was even necessary to prepare a place of freedom for the restoration to happen. This event was prophesied of, prepared for and long awaited! The angel in Revelations, that was seen by John, flying through the air with the everlasting Gospel has been here! His name is Moroni. His likeness is on top of our temples for that reason.
    I would be interested to know exactly what you find so objectionable with our History and Prophets,

    thanks,
    geoff

  41. catzgalore said,

    June 29, 2009 at 8:07 pm

    There are so many issues, Geoff. So many have already been talked about on this blog– The trouble with trying to refute false (from my point of view) doctrine is that the LDS church has an explanation for everything. Yes, teaching change. The men on the moon. Do you know about that? The church taught that in the fifties. I remember. Ask someone older than you are. Maybe Brigham Young is no longer believable? Or can you pick and choose what to believe?

    All other issues aside, the main thing I find objectionable is that the LDS church is MAN CENTERED. It is all about getting to the celestial heaven! It is all about having your family sealed to you for eternity. It is NOT about pleasing God; it is about glorifying MAN.

    When we go to be before the Lord, will He put you on the left or the right? Some of the ones on the left will say, but we prophesied in your name, we healed the sick! And He will say I never knew you!! Why? Because they are trusting in their WORKS to be pleasing to God, NOT on the work of JESUS!!!

    People on this blog have said this over and over again. And still, you don’t know why we object to the Mormon prophets! Forgive me that I get angry– then I remember, only for the grace of God am I not an unbeliever! It is only by His GRACE that I am a believer at all. Only by HIS GRACE will YOU trust in the work of the Lord ALONE and not your works. And so I pray that God will open your eyes! I pray that you will see that GOD ALONE is our salvation, not anything we do.

    Romans 10:9
    … if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    Ephesians 2:8-9
    8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.

    I know, there’s something about timing, some reason that this isn’t saying what it is saying. I know, according to LDS doctrine, we are ALL saved, except for a few. That isn’t what the scripture teaches. But there we go, sidetracked into doctrinal issues that have been said again and again.

    I find Joseph Smith’s comment about doing more than anyone than Jesus to be pompous and disgusting! How dare anyone compare themselves to Jesus in that way? 2+2=4? Not even a good analogy. A smart alecky answer! 🙂

    I find it blasphemous that Smith felt he had to change scripture to fit his beliefs and call himself a prophet! Compare an ordinary King James Bible to the Joseph Smith version and see what he changed!

    Anything can be denied by saying the timing changed! Men really DID live on the moon and the sun, they evolved into something else? The person who talked about the hat and stones, was, after all, excommunicated. He couldn’t be trusted. There’s always some reason. We have been warned not to follow after false prophets. If he was not a true prophet, what will you say to the Lord?

    The truth is that faith in the Lord and belief that Jesus’ death was SUFFICIENT is a gift; you will never believe until God changes your heart. I pray that He does.

  42. catzgalore said,

    June 29, 2009 at 8:34 pm

    So I re read this last post. I see my anger still. I’m sorry. I do SO love the Lord and wish that you could know the depth of His love. I would love it if you could see the magnificent gift He gave– and feel the joy of knowing that you are loved by God without conditions; that He loves us in spite of our sins; we don’t deserve His love in any way but He loves anyway; that He chooses to forgive us because of JESUS. I want you to see that the death of Christ fulfilled the priesthood and gave us direct access to God Himself. I want you to see that the ONE God, the ONLY God wants our love, loyalty, devotion, obedience… that our purpose is to glorify Him and not ourselves. I want you to be able to go before the Lord on that last day trusting JESUS.

  43. geoff456 said,

    June 30, 2009 at 7:13 pm

    Catz,

    I didn’t see anger, I saw passion! 🙂
    Tell me this: what does “endure to the end” mean?

    If you are “in like flynn”, then why did Christ ask you to endure to the end?

    Geoff

    PS. Have you ever noticed that you and KO continually tell me (and Shem) what WE believe? I think it is interesting. I can’t recall EVER telling YOU what you believed.

  44. catzgalore said,

    June 30, 2009 at 8:03 pm

    What DO you believe about all the old writings that include those ideas? Are they untrue? If so, then what does that mean about the integrity of the ones who said it? Or do you believe they ARE true?

  45. osbornekristen said,

    June 30, 2009 at 8:32 pm

    I am almost always quoting or stating what LDS doctrine/or you church’s prophets have stated that they/the LDS church believes. I assume that being an LDS member that you believe what they say to be truth. Catz and I don’t belong to churches where “prophets” give new and changing revelations about what we should believe. My church does have a set of belief statements that all of its members agree on or they would not wish to be members. However, the leader of my church (the pastor) is just a godly, well educated man who teaches from the word of God–the Bible. He does not claim to be a living prophet. He is a teacher. Your church leader/leaders of the past claim to be prophets……which require you to believe what they claim…without question. If you don’t believe what they say……then I guess you don’t believe that they are really speaking the truth…..thus they are false. It only makes sense that you believe what your prophets teach/have taught or you should not be a member.

    Catz and I just read what your church leaders claim to be true and assume you believe it. Should we not?

  46. catzgalore said,

    July 1, 2009 at 7:37 am

    Endure to the end…. God will give us the means to endure to the end. He has already given us much– and if we are truly believers, we will endure. By God’s grace. ONLY by God’s grace.

  47. geoff456 said,

    July 1, 2009 at 8:34 am

    Hi again,

    I really have no idea what you mean when you say “our prophets teach and changing revelations.” Can you give me an example?

    Can you give me the references for the man on the moon thing, too? I believe that was probably taken out of context…I only vaguely remember that being used in anti-mormon lit. once.

    The “hat” issue is easy to solve. It was a one time event. Joseph put the seer stone (also talked about in the Bible) in a hat to keep the sunlight from reflecting off it. He didn’t pull a rabbit out of the hat!! 🙂 It is NO big deal. It would be like someone saying, “He has ugly shoes so he can’t be who he says he is”. Joseph was/is a prophet of God, chosen by God. One of you made the comment that this all seems to hinge on Joseph…and you are somewhat correct. If the Book of Mormon is true, then Joseph is a prophet of God. Well, the Book of Mormon was translated by a 24 year old, unlearned man in 75 days. It has over 500 pages and thousands of words. It interlinks generations, contains historys of ancient people, has ancient writing styles and doctrine of Christ. It contains a name of Christ on the average of every 10 words. It is complex, yet easy to understand. Now, you tell me how ANYONE could do all that in 75 days without the help of God.
    I have read the Book of Mormon many times. I read it with an open mind and heart. It is true. It is a wonderful book containing the Doctrine of Christ. Joseph is a true prophet of God. He was just a 14 year old boy when he first saw the Father and the Son. His own family believed him instantly and stood by him every day until his death. They gave up all comforts to follow him across frozen rivers and dry, dusty roads.
    Obviously WE know something you don’t. I am sorry that you have such a bad taste in your mouth about the LDS Church. From the things you say I can tell you have a little bit of the truth, mingled with out of context bits and outright fabrications.
    You may quote our doctrine, but it is without a foundation of belief. You can’t start at point “M” and arrive at point “Z”. You must start at the beginning and understand all the underlying doctrine. For example: someone on this blog is always quoting Spencer W. Kimball about repentance. Well, his book is ALL about repentance…so if part of it is taken out of context then the conclusion is never reached! WE believe in repentance AND forgiveness! That is IN THE BIBLE. YOU should believe in that, too! But when some random sentence is extracted out of the middle, “some” people want to draw the wrong conclusions. A little bit of knowledge is a dangerous thing! It is actually quite hilarious to follow some of the thought processes that go into your conclusions!
    MY religion is completely compatible with the Bible! You have some truth, the invitation from our missionaries is to “bring your truth and add it to ours”.
    We do not condemn other Christians, many of us are converts! We INVITE you to listen and learn.
    So, you need (in my opinion) to relax, take a deep breath and learn about the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the LDS Church. Those little bits of gossip DO NOT bother the members because we know the source from which they are stirred up!
    Just last night we watched “America’s Got Talent”. There were 5 sisters from Utah…..mormons, I am sure….who danced. The judges made the comment that “all people from Utah smile like that”. Guess what? That is true! We are happy people! We are not deluded! We are doctors, lawyers, business men, farmers, plumbers, contractors, developers, bankers, nurses, …..well educated people that have discovered something YOU DONT understand.
    Instead of slamming it, wouldn’t you like to find out why we smile? Why we look clean and shiny? Why we aren’t long-haired wierdos with tatoos and piercings? Why our kids would give up years of their lives to serve the Lord? Why “our fruits” are so obvious to the world? (i believe you were the one who pointed that out). The bible says, “by their fruits ye shall know them”. Well the fruits are there! They are OBVIOUS to the whole world.
    have a nice day, i will be looking forward to your answers.

    geoff

  48. christiangirl19 said,

    July 1, 2009 at 9:20 am

    Hi everyone,

    I am new to posting here. I’ve been reading this blog for a while, but after the interesting discussion here, I wanted to post something.

    I am a born-again Christian, just to give a little bit of background information. I have studied a few of the additional books that Mormons read, and have noticed some contradictions between them. That is what I would like to respond to. Here are just a few of them:

    One God or Multiple Gods?
    Book of Mormon: Alma 11:27 says “27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
    28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
    29 And he answered, No.
    30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
    31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me”
    VS
    D&C Section 132: 37 “Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods.”

    God is a spirit or has a body?
    BOM: Alma 18:26-28
    “26 And then Ammon said: Believest thou that there is a Great Spirit? 27 And he said, Yea. 28 And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?”
    VS
    D&C Section 130:22 “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.”

    God’s word can or cannot change?
    BOM Alma 41:8 “Now, the decrees of God are unalterable; therefore, the way is prepared that whosoever will may walk therein and be saved.”
    VS
    D&C Section 56:4-5 “4 Wherefore I, the Lord, command and revoke, as it seemeth me good; and all this to be answered upon the heads of the rebellious, saith the Lord. 5 Wherefore, I revoke the commandment which was given unto my servants Thomas B. Marsh and Ezra Thayre, and give a new commandment unto my servant Thomas, that he shall take up his journey speedily to the land of Missouri, and my servant Selah J. Griffin shall also go with him.”

    Can murder be forgiven?
    BOM: 3 Nephi 30:2 “Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.”
    VS
    D&C Section 42:18 “And now, behold, I speak unto the church. Thou shalt not kill; and he that kills shall not have forgiveness in this world, nor in the world to come.”

    If there are contradictions between your own scriptures, I have a hard time believing that these scriptures could be compatible with the Bible, as you said Geoff456.

    Thanks for listening. Have a great day,
    Christiangirl

  49. geoff456 said,

    July 1, 2009 at 11:16 am

    Hi CG,

    #1 One God or Multiple Gods?

    There is ONE GOD the Father. He is the source of ALL truth, and light.
    He has a son, Jesus Christ. Jesus got his power, truth and light from the ONE GOD, making Him also a God, just not THE GOD. (think of a flame…one flame can pass on its power without diminishing itself…but there is still just ONE SOURCE of that power and flame.) Do you dispute the truth that God the Father can give His power to whomever He pleases?
    gods (lower case) refers to other beings who, like angels, live in heaven. they are mentioned in the Bible as well.

    God is a spirit or has a body?
    God has a body and a spirit. We are made in his image and we are like Him. The Savior also has a spirit and a body of flesh and bones. Adam and Eve had a body and a spirit….without a spirit, a body is dead. When Jesus Christ died, he “gave up the ghost”, meaning His spirit and body were separated. Resurrection re-unites the spirit and the body. Christ overcame death and NOW all people will be resurrected.
    The Holy Ghost does not have a body of flesh and bones….yet. He will someday get a body so that he too can progress. Bodies are important for our progression. You need a body to receive the ordinances of the Gospel. That is why there is no marrying or giving of marriage in heaven….because you need a body. It is an earthly ordinance. That is why LDS do proxy baptisms and ordinances on earth, so there is a body available…..maybe that was a little deep?

    God’s word can or cannot change?
    God can change anything He wants to. Man can not change God’s word.

    Can murder be forgiven?
    Unbaptized people can apparently “get away” with more than baptized people. If someone has made a covenant, he is under greater condemnation than someone who is ignorant. Where there is a law, there is more expected. The Saints mentioned in the Doctrine and Covenants are members of the Church, they are a covenant people. Covenants matter. If you break yours, you are under condemnation.

    This is a perfect example of going from point M to point Z without knowing A-L. You know a little bit, but not enough to see the distinctions that I have pointed out above. These would not be a problem for most LDS youth to explain since they have been taught the whole gospel all of their lives.

    have a great day!

    geoff

  50. shematwater said,

    July 1, 2009 at 12:26 pm

    GEOFF

    I do know the men on the moon quote, and it is the same as the men on the sun. These were both said by Brigham Young. Sorry that I can’t actually quote what he said, but I can tell you it is taken way out of context. Basically he asked if the people believed life existed on the sun, and then stated “I rather think there is. It was not created in vain.” Thus what he was teaching is that all things that existed have a purpose, and as far as he believed that meant that all heavenly bodies had life on them. Life on the moon and sun was a personal opinion that he formed from knowing that all things have a purpose.
    Personally, since we know spirits and immortal beings do not live on this Earth (at least not yet) there may be this form of life on these bodies. I do not say there is, but it is a definite possibility.

    As to changing teachings, there are others besides the Blacks and the Priesthood. The other two favorites are Polygamy and the Adam – God theory. The first has not changed from a doctrinal point of view, the second was never taught (despite the very convincing, yet wickedly deceiving people who claim otherwise).

    CHRISTIANGIRL19

    Let me respond a little to your contradictions

    Gods: singular or plural – In the context in which Amulek was speaking there is one God, or one great Eloheim. His son came, and is now a God (of course, in one sense he was a God before, but that is a little too technical for this discussion). In the context of D&C there are many, as we all can be gods, but there is still only one who rules the gods (Eloheim).

    God is a spirit – At the time that Ammon was speaking Christ was a spirit. Read in the Book of Ether chapter 3. Before he was born on the Earth to Mary he was a spirit like all the rest of us. After his birth and resurrection he gained a physical body and now has one.
    I know that Ammon is speaking of Christ, and not the Father, because Christ is the God of the Old Testiment, or the one that dealt more directly with men. After the Fall the Father ceased to deal directly with men, except to bare witness of Christ.

    God’s words: can they change – Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac, but God changed that command. Yet in Malachi 3: 6 he says he doesn’t change (For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.)
    The decrees of God are unalterable, but the commands of God can be changed. This has always been true. After all, look at the Law of Moses. This law was not practiced in the time of Genesis, and it was changed by Christ when he came. However, the need for the Atonement has never changed. What he has decreed will happen at and before the second coming have not changed. These are the things that are unchangable. When he has decreed it it will happen, but he has commanded us he can change it.

    Forgive Murder: yes or no – First you must understand that things are relative. In other words, if you have been taught that something is wrong and you do it anyway you are under a greater condemnation than one who was never taught that does the same.
    Once you understand this look at who the two scriptures are written to. In 3 Nephi he is writing to the gentiles, people who have not had the truth taught to them in its fulness, and thus they can receive a forgiveness. In D&C he is speaking to the Saints about the consequences of what he just taught them. They now know the truth, and the consequences, as such they cannot be forgiven.
    We will be judge according to what we know. A sin commited in ignorance cannot bring the same punishment as one commited willfully and the judge remain just.

    Thus there is no real contradiction when you understand what the verious references are actually talking about, and so these scriptures can be in perfect harmony with the Bible.

    On the other hand, let us look at some contradictions in the Bible.

    God does or does not do evil:
    Does not: Duet 32: 4 “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”
    Does: Amos 3: 6 “Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be aevil in a city, and the Lord hath not bdone it?”

    John the Baptist: Elijah or Not
    No: John 1: 19 “And they asked him, What then? Art thou aElias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.
    Yes: Matt 17: 12-13 “But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them. Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.”

    Christ’s Witness: Is it true
    No: John 5: 31 “If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.”
    Yes: John 8: 14 “Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.”

    The Cross: Who bore it
    Christ: John 19: 17 “And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha.”
    Simon: Matt 27: 33 ” And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.”

    The fobidden Fruit: When would Adam Die
    Imediately: Genesis 2: 17 “But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”
    In 930 years: Genesis 5: 5 “And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.”

    Who has ascended into Heaven
    Only Christ: John 3: 13 “And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
    Elijah also: 2 Kings 2: 11 “And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.”

    So, please deal with your own contradictions before you try to find some with us (the whole beam in eye that Christ talked about).

  51. catzgalore said,

    July 1, 2009 at 2:18 pm

    Thank you, Geoff, Shem, and Vonnie, for all you have taught me. Thank you for your responses. I appreciate your willingness to respond.

    The bottom line, for me, is that I will not follow man’s created church. Not the LDS (started by Joseph Smith, a man even though you disagree he STARTED it), not Methodists, or the Baptists, or the Nazarenes–although you may find me worshipping in one of their churches, and you will find me attending a church–maybe even a MEMBER of one of those churches! But I won’t say that ONE church has “the FULLNESS” and the rest don’t. If ANY church said, “here is MORE scripture, it is just as true as the Bible, maybe MORE true” I would definitely run the other way! And I certainly won’t listen to a church that teaches that there is more than ONE God. I won’t believe that you can’t get to the highest heaven unless you are married to the right person.
    Even though I pray to learn the truth (and will continue to do so; as I read the Bible), there’s always another thing that makes me doubt! Something that I can’t believe is being taught by anyone! The first thing I read on the lds site was that God took away His authority from the earth–it seems to infer that people couldn’t be saved during that time, because the “priesthood” wasn’t there! And if people COULD be saved during that time without Joseph Smith (other than being baptized by proxy)… then ??? well that whole thought is just so convoluted! I had it explained to me, but still it seems like nonsense to me. I guess the Holy Spirit isn’t teaching me that. Or maybe I am just really stubborn. Think whatever you wish.

    Geoff said:
    “Unbaptized people can apparently “get away” with more than baptized people”. That would mean I am better off NOT being Mormon– less accountable; less condemnation.

  52. christiangirl19 said,

    July 1, 2009 at 3:37 pm

    Thanks for the replies. I find this discussion very interesting! I appreciate the honesty in all of the replies. I am not trying to offend anyone either!

    I can understand timing changing for things. Geoff, you mentioned dating as an example- before 16 you say no, after 16 group dates are okay, etc. I don’t think of that as changing your mind, since you always knew “if you’re 14, it’s no… if you’re 18 yes”- it wasn’t like your daughter turned 16 and all of a sudden you decided it was okay to group date. You always knew what age you would say yes at! I guess many things are like that- driving at 16, voting at 18, drinking at 19 (in Canada anyway). It was always predetermined that those ages were acceptable to do the specific activity.

    One verse I really like is from Numbers. Numbers 23:19: “God is not a man, so he does not lie. He is not human, so he does not change his mind. Has he ever spoken and failed to act? Has he ever promised and not followed it through?”

    To me that sums up my point. God will never all of a sudden change his mind. When it comes to all of the sacrifices and laws in the Old Testament, I take that as representing what Jesus would do on the cross- he just hadn’t come yet. I imagine that it must have been very hard to understand that God himself would come and die for us, so God gave the Jews a picture of it (in the form of sacrificing animals). Once Jesus came and died, the work was finished- there was no need to sacrifice anything, because the ultimate sacrifice had been paid.

    Shematwater, you did point out some potential contradictions within the Bible. My problem with that is that as Mormons, you believe in the Bible, as well as the other scriptures- so do you believe the contradictions you pointed out? However, as a Christian, I only believe in the Bible. I’m not quite sure how to word it, but basically you see problems only with the Bible (which you claim to believe in) but not the other Mormon scriptures? I find that very odd, since you believe in the Bible too, and the Bible has been verified by many historical scholars. The Book of Mormon has been much less verified (I do know it was written much later than the Bible, but what I mean is that there is much more of a debate on its accuracy than the Bible’s). When there are contradictions between the Bible and the other scriptures, I personally would trust that the Bible is correct and inspired by God.

    I am sure there is an explanation for the verses you pointed out. However, I am not a biblical scholar, and I am unfamiliar with some of the passages you quoted, so I do not want to make something up. Sometimes things are a question of the context (which is very hard to gauge from one verse on its own), or whether they are to be taken literally or not- unfortunately I am not sure what the case is for the ones you pointed out!

    However, you have given me something to study and research. I have trust that God’s word did not change, and that he did not lie- just like it says in Numbers 23!

  53. geoff456 said,

    July 1, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    Hi Catz,

    I DID say “Unbaptized people can apparently “get away” with more than baptized people”. That would mean I am better off NOT being Mormon– less accountable; less condemnation.”

    of course I was referring to murder by people who do not know any better, but in a sense it could apply to you. The opportunity to be baptized and have your ordinance work done for you AFTER you die is ONLY for people who did NOT have the opportunity to hear the gospel while they were on earth. You have had the “opportunity”. Not only have you had it, you have SHUNNED it. So, staying as ignorant of the truth as you possibly can would be your only hope! Certainly participating in LDS bashing is not in your favor. You decide. Maybe you are stubborn…that is ALSO not in your favor. The Holy Spirit only goes where he is invited. He can’t reach a stubborn heart.

    Oh and BTW, the Apostacy was foretold in the Bible (Amos 8:11,2 Thessalonians 2:3,etc), “we” didn’t make it up. Ever wonder about all the modern “miracles” and technology available today….why weren’t these inventions thought of during the thousands of years that people were on the earth? Because the earth was in “darkness”, thats why (Isaiah 60:2). When the Gospel and priesthood of God were restored to the earth, the knowledge and light started to flow down, too. The Industrial Revolution through today’s computer age!
    I’m telling ya…we KNOW something you don’t know! Maybe you will get “lucky” enough to find it out someday!

    ~geoff

  54. osbornekristen said,

    July 2, 2009 at 12:33 am

    geoff said:

    “Oh and BTW, the Apostacy was foretold in the Bible (Amos 8:11,2 Thessalonians 2:3,etc), “we” didn’t make it up.”
    2 Thessalonians 2:3:
    1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness[a] is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. 4He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

    I’m sorry did I miss something here? These verses are referring to the anti-christ who will rule during the Tribulation Period…….until Christ returns with his church (Christians who have already been taken during the Rapture of the Church) to rule. These verses speak of something that has NOT yet happened. They have nothing to do with an apostacy that has already happened. When Christ comes for His church (the Rapture), there will be an apostacy of sorts because Christians will be gone from this earth….there will be no believers left…..except for those who realize the truth after the fact. The anti-christ will come into power and demand to be worshiped. He will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and make an image of himself and command people to bow to him and denouce God. This is what these verses refer to. This has not yet happened. These verses are clearly prophecy……a prophecy that has not been fulfilled yet. We can see the “signs of the times” moving in that direction……but it is yet to occur.

    Where do you get that these verses refer to the Mormon belief in the Great Apostacy? I think this is a perfect example of LDS taking a verse completely out of context without reading the text above and below. I mean really!

  55. christiangirl19 said,

    July 3, 2009 at 1:05 pm

    I know a new entry has been posted, but I did some research on Shematwater’s contradictions and wanted to post my thoughts. It was interesting to look up- thanks!

    Does God do evil?
    Amos was called to speak out to the Jewish people- God’s chosen people, no less! People had been using God only when they needed him, but ignored him the rest of the time. They generally did things that were directly against God’s laws, had idols, did their own things, etc. God finally had to punish them. He had warned them many times in the past, but they failed to listen and sincerely repent. God was not doing evil in these verses, he was delivering justice. People have this idea that God is all hugs and smiles and love. He does love us, but when Israel (his people) went against him, he had to punish them. I don’t think he would ever “do evil” for the fun of it.

    Is John the Baptist really Elijah?
    I must admit, this one gave me the most trouble. One thing that is true is that reincarnation is directly against the Old Testament, so John the Baptist could not have been Elijah directly reincarnated. A prophecy in Malachi is that before the Messiah came, Elijah would come. In Luke 1:13-17, we are told that J. T. B. would come in the spirit of Elijah. I think this means he was similar to Elijah- he came before Jesus did. However, Elijah will come before the second coming of Christ (the tribulation period that Osbornekristen was talking about). That is my best understanding of it.

    Is Christ’s witness true?
    One thing that must be understood about the Jewish leaders of Christ’s time is that they were very religious (praying for everyone to see, donating money, etc), without knowing must about what the Scriptures meant. Jesus was confronting this religious hypocracy. In John 5:31-47, Jesusis is saying that the people don’t believe him or believe that he is the Messiah, because they have no love for God, and they don’t even believe the scriptures that they read (which talks about the Messiah coming). They don’t realize that who they’ve been reading about has been right in front of them, so him saying “it’s really me” won’t convince them. However, in John 8:12-30, Jesus says that he knows who he is, and the Father (God) has confirmed it. The leaders don’t believe it, because they judge by human standards. Jesus says they don’t know Jesus or the Father.

    Who bore the cross?
    I think this is a matter of both verses being correct. If you look at the torture Jesus went through before the actual cruicifiction (he was struck, beated, givin a crown of thorns, scourged- so much so that he was sweating blood) it is no wonder that he could not carry it the entire way. I imagine they met Simon along the way and forced him to pick up the slack.

    When was Adam’s death?
    This one might be a bit harder to explain, since I think we speak a different language (as the newest entry by Latter Day Saint Woman suggested!). Prior to Adam and Eve eating the forbidden fruit, there was no sin in the world. They had no knowledge of evil, and they did not sin- they lived in harmony with God- therefore, there was no need for punishment. However, this original sin (that is, after Adam and Eve disobeyed God, mankind was forever stained with sin) meant that Adam was no longer perfect, and he would have to die. I don’t believe it meant he would be struck dead right then and there. Let me explain.
    Fast forward to today- we need Jesus as a saviour, because we are all sinners and only Jesus led a perfect life. We cannot do anything on our own that makes us worthy of spiritual life or being forgiven by God.
    Before we have accepted Jesus as our saviour, we are all spiritually dead. We walk around the earth and live our lives, but we are separated from God. So we are spiritually dead long before we die physically. I believe that is what Genesis 2:17 referred to- once Adam disobeyed God, he was a sinner, and would be separated from God (dead SPIRITUALLY, in other words). He did not physically die until he was 930 years old, as was stated in Genesis 5:5.

    Who ascended to Heaven?
    In John 3, Nicodemus is asking Jesus what it takes to get have eternal life. Jesus replies that you need to be reborn, which baffles Nicodemus. Jesus was talking about spiritual rebirth- accepting that Christ is the ONLY way you can get to Heaven. His death on the cross paid for our sins. We cannot do anything on our own: no matter how many good works we do, who we marry, how much we help the needy, etc we do will earn us a place to heaven. Jesus was saying that it is only through accepting his death and ressurection can we get eternal life – so in that sense, Jesus is the only one who has ascended to Heaven (because we are “tagging along” with him, if you will- we are accepting his sacrifice, he is our “ticket” to Heaven).
    However, the verse you pointed out is that Elijah also ascended. This occurred before Jesus was ever on earth, so it was a different time then. Also, if you read a little bit above the specific verse you said, you will notice that it is repeatedly said that the Lord took Elijah up. So it was only the Lord God who brought Elijah up – he did not do it on his own.

    I hope that clears things up. I found it most interesting to look into. I think some of those just required a little bit of reading and common sense. I think having one or multiple Gods is a lot more of an issue than whether Simon or Jesus carried the cross. I can’t even imagine anything more blasphemous than declaring I’ll be a god myself one day, even if I’m not “THE” God. I find it so much easier to trust that Jesus’ death covers all of my sins and shortcomings, and all I need to do is embrace him.

    Thanks for making me look into what I believe. I found it very helpful, and I pray you will research as well.

  56. shematwater said,

    July 3, 2009 at 7:12 pm

    CHRISTIANGIRL

    I know of these contradiction. Some I can personally explain, others are just there. However, of the contradictions you gave among the LDS scripture I was able to show how none of them are true contradiction. I could give a more detailed explanation of all of them, but can you see how they are not true contradictions. I agree that they appear to be, but when you know all the doctrine of the church that appears is shown to be false.

    As to believing in the Bible, do you not know our 8th article of faith. “We be the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly.” We do not believe in the errors that have crept into the text through the ages. This is why Joseph Smith undertook to retranslate the Bible, to correct these errors and contradictions.

    I do see problems with the Book fo Mormon, but not with its doctrine. I see problems that have arrisen because imperfect men were called to the work. These problems have been fixed, and any that still remain will continue to be fixed. The same is true of the Doctrine and Covenants, and teh Pearl of Great Price. The doctrine they teach is true. There is no error in it. But, as men frequently do (especially before madoern technology) there have been errors in spelling, in grammer, or other areas that are common when transposing from written to typed.

    As to changing his mind, God never does, at least not concerning doctrine, and I would challenge you to show me a time in the history of the LDS church when he did. Many try to, and those who do not know the actual doctrine of the church are fooled by them, but they are not honest. Never has God changed his mind concerning the doctrines he has taught.

    CATZ

    I like what geoff said, but I would add one thing. Without the ordinances of the Gospel the best you can hope for is the terrestial kingdom. You may receive the highest glory in that kingdom, but you could never enter the Celestial Kingdom. Yes, the only hope anyone has of entering this highest kindom is to obey the gospel law and submit to the ordinances that God has decreed are necessary, at the hands of those he has given the kings for such action. Without these ordinances, as Geoff says, your best bet would be to remain as ignorant as you can, for it is on our understanding that God will base his judgment.

    OSBORNE

    I have to ask what translation of the Bible you are quoting, and would then suggest you discard it, for it has altered the words of Paul to the Thessalonians. Here is verse 3 from the KJV: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    Notice here the mention to a “Falling away” which indicates an apostacy. Notice also how what you quote alters this. It changes “Falling away” to “rebellion.” Now, knowing both translations it becomes easy to interpret “rebellion” as an apostacy, but not by itself.

    As to the anti-Christ, I think that we disagree on the details, and on some major points, but on this basic topic I think we agree. This is speaking about the Anti-Christ (who is Satan, by the way) but saying that he will be revealed after the apostacy, not before. I also do not really believe in all that is generally taught about the tribulation, so you will understand why I hold to this point of view.

  57. christiangirl19 said,

    July 3, 2009 at 9:22 pm

    Shematwater-
    I have only heard a Mormon service once (please forgive me if that’s not the correct term for it), so I freely admit I do not know all of the details of your beliefs at all. I want to say that I do not seek to offend you at all. I have been quite interested in researching them online, and I have tried to be as unbiased as I can be.

    I have heard of the 8th article of faith you mentioned. I am correct in stating that the Mormon church does not even use Joseph Smith’s “corrected” version of the Bible?! It is hard for man to correct what God has written! Since I believe God is all-powerful, I do not believe he would have let changes occur to his Word.

    You’re most definitely correct that there have been spelling errors, misplaced punctuation, etc throughout time. However, I believe that the Bible has been translated correctly, and the Bible I have today is the same Word that was inspired by God 2000+ years ago. Many historians and biblical scholars alike have determined that the scriptures are 95% accurate (or something like that), with the 5% that is inaccurate being errors in spelling, etc.

    I like this verse from 1 Corinthians 14:33 “For God is not a God of disorder (confusion) but of peace.” His Word should not be confusing to us; we should not be wondering what is true and what has been altered.

    I will say, you did clear up some of the verses I had pointed out to you. As I said, I certainly do not know all of the church’s beliefs by any stretch of the imagination. I do have to ask- if there are 2 opposing statements, one from the Book of Mormon (or other Mormon doctrine) and the opposing one from the Bible, which would you believe?

    Here are some examples that I have a hard time believing are not contradictory (ie. cannot be explained):

    We can be Gods-
    “The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself.” – Journal of Discourses 3:93
    Bible says we don’t- “Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.” – Isaiah 43:10

    God’s Word includes more than just the Bible-
    Mormon doctrine considers three books to be the Word of God in addition to the Bible: The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants.
    The Bible says: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.” – Revelation 22:18

    Eternal marriage (the original discussion of this blog entry!)-
    “If I have children, if I have a wife, I shall have them in eternity.” – Gospel Truth p.93
    The Bible: “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” – Matthew 22:30
    Aside- Way back up in the earlier posts, someone (I am thinking Geoff, but I may be wrong) had asked the rhetorical question why we would get married on earth if it is not meant to last forever. Fair enough- however, if marriage were a requirement for the highest heaven, why would Paul write in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 that it is good for a man not to marry (verse 1)?

    Did God create mankind?
    “…They are unlearned in the things of God… God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all.” – Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 350
    Bible- “Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” – Genesis 2:7

    Your question, Shematwater, was for any examples of how God changed his mind. I do not know the Mormon doctrine, as I have said- however, these examples I referred to make me think that God must have changed his mind if the Mormon church is true, because the statements are completely opposite!

    I think that is quite enough out of me for now. Good evening all!

  58. osbornekristen said,

    July 3, 2009 at 10:40 pm

    Shem,

    First of all, I think it is interesting that you think I should discard the NIV translation of the Bible. You do realize that scholars used older documents (Dead Sea Scrolls) for this translation than were used in the KJV. Thousands of Greek texts were consulted/used in the NIV translation…….only 5 were used in the KJV. Actually, scholars say that the NASB is the one translated closest to the original language. I believe the KJV is beautifully written and fine to use, but it is very hard to understand. I believe the Bible is how God speaks to his children the majority of the time. I want to be able to read and comprehend what my Father is saying. (It also cracks me up how spell-check finds tons of KJV words that either are misspelled, misused or don’t exist in the English language) Thus, I read several translations side-by-side when I am studying. I have a quad Bible that has the KJV, NIV, New Living and NASB side by side. I look at them all.

    If the KJV is the only version to be used, why did Smith write his own? I read a little bit of his version……he certainly added some of his own doctrine in the mix. Here is John 1:1.

    KJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joseph Smith V: In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God.

    He certainly worked in His LDS view that Jesus was/is not God……since the “Word” referred to in the KJV is Jesus….and it clearly says that the “Word was God.” Smith just says that the “Son was of God.” Talk about changing the meaning! Please don’t tell me that he was given a revelation to deny Christ as God. Just another example of how he twisted truth to create his own interpretations and to justify his teachings.

    You can only read the KJV if you like, but it doesn’t really matter which version you read…….the content/meaning of 2 Thess. 2 is still the same.

    KJV:“3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. “

    Shem, this is still referring to the rise of the Anti-Christ which has NOT yet occurred. He is the son of perdition. He is a man who will become “indwelled” by Satan. The nations will “fall away” from God…..we see this beginning now! Again, it will be almost impossible to believe in God when the Anti-Christ really rises to power because the church will not be here because we have already been taken by Christ (the Rapture). With no Christians left, it will be extremely hard for those “left-behind” in the rapture to become believers.

    The KJV says the same thing as the NIV……that this man will “ opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.”

    The Anti-Christ will rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem and create an image of himself there that he will require everyone of bow to. This is what 2 Thess. is referring to. I think we can both agree that this has not yet happened.

    Daniel 11:36-37 (King James Version) gives the same prophecy…..”36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.”

    I don’t know what LDS believe about end-time prophecy. Again, there will never be an apostasy of the “church” because Christ will come for His church before this man completely rises to power. Therefore, there won’t be a church on earth……we will be with Christ….though most people left on the earth will certainly be in total denial of God. The Church will ALWAYS stand….it will just be taken from the earth during this time….those left behind will certainly fall away under the rule the Anti-Christ. We will return with Christ in the 2nd Coming…..when he comes back as RULER and KING in all glory for everyone to see!

    I don’t know about you, but I am certainly trusting God’s word (the Bible) over what men (Smith) have come up with themselves. Old English or contemporary English….the truth is still the same. 2 Thess. 2 has nothing to do with an apostacy of the past as the LDS church teaches. It is a prophecy for the future…..a future that is fast aproaching!

  59. geoff456 said,

    July 4, 2009 at 12:31 am

    KO, CG, and Catz,

    Whew! What a mixed up mess of man made doctrine! that is about all I can say about the last few posts! and KO, just how do you “know” that the prophecy of the “future” is YOUR future and not the future of the people from the past, which would make it YOUR past, but THEIR future…which is now past and not yet to come?
    And about Joseph making up the doctrine of the Savior…..who thunk up the Trinity? which BTW is the silliest yet? Sorry, but Joseph’s eye witness account is good enough for me.

    Like i said, we know something you don’t know!

    cheers!
    geoff

    CG 19: where did you come up with your questions? what book are you reading about LDS doctrine?

  60. catzgalore said,

    July 4, 2009 at 10:26 am

    Geoff, one last post for you– I am only doing this because you never answered that question in post 20– I assumed you just ignored it because you didn’t have anything to say. Post 20:

    The Bible is correct as long as it is correctly translated. Can you find me something in the Bible that says that?

    I read this in the Articles of Faith, that you (or Shem) suggested I read and then accused me of not reading. It is #8.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/a_of_f/1

    8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

    I will not respond to you any more. I have had enough of your belittling and pompousness. I am glad that not all Mormons have your attitude.

  61. geoff456 said,

    July 4, 2009 at 10:53 am

    KO,

    One more thing: you put plenty of stock into the “dead sea scrolls”, but yet doubt the Book of Mormon, which is also an ancient record that has “recently” come to light…..interestingly enough, a double standard! :}

    ~geoff

  62. osbornekristen said,

    July 4, 2009 at 1:04 pm

    Geoff , my friend,
    The Dead Sea scrolls are Biblical documents……they add proof of it as a historical document. The Dead Sea scrolls consist of roughly 900 documents, including texts from the Hebrew Bible. They include some of the only known surviving copies of Biblical documents made before 100 BCE. There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms . The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found. The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars.

    Before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, the oldest Hebrew manuscripts of the Bible were Masoretic texts dating to 9th century. The biblical manuscripts found among the Dead Sea Scrolls push that date back to the 2nd century BCE. Before this discovery, the earliest extant manuscripts of the Old Testament were in Greek in manuscripts such as Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus.

    If only ancient writings of the Book of Mormon could be found Geoff……or even 1 shred of evidence of the civilazations mentioned in it. The Dead Sea Scrolls help to prove the Bible’s roots in the ancient world. What has ever been found to link the Book of Mormon to the people or places in it? The people mentioned in the B of M were supposedly great record keepers……where are those records Geoff? Where are the artifacts and remains that prove their existence?

    We have so much proof that the things in the Bible really happened…….even secular scholars cannot deny the historical accuracy of the Bible. Have you heard what they say about the B of Mormon?

    You said, “Sorry, but Joseph’s eye witness account is good enough for me.”

    The Bible says John 1:18 : “No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”

    Exodus 33:20 “ But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

    John 6:46: “ Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.”

    1 John 4:12 “No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.”

    1Timothy 6:16: “Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.”

    1 Tim. 1:17 “Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen”

    Again, I TRUST what the Bible says. You should too.

    The prophecy mentioned in 2 Thess. has NOT happened. If it has, please explain when and the evidence you have to prove it!

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but has the temple been rebuilt in Jerusalem?
    Has a man of sin claming to be God demanded that the whole world must worship him there? If so, where is this documented? Where is this man now? Who was he? What did God do to him?

    Geoff, you obviously don’t know anything about Biblical prophecy. I guess Smith may have written his own ending. You Do know a lot of things that I don’t…….. Unfortunately, they are not things from God. I am not “twisting” the truth. I am stating it. Read the bible for yourself……..not the writings of your church leaders.

  63. osbornekristen said,

    July 4, 2009 at 2:03 pm

    Geoff,
    I also want to comment on the Trinity. But, the first step is to establish that there is only one God. (Isaiah 43:10; 44:6,8; 45:5,14,18,21,22; 46:9; 47:8; John 17:3; 1 Cor. 8:5-6; Gal. 4:8-9). Do you believe this?

    I will write more on this Biblical concept later. Right now, I am celebrating the 4th with my family.

  64. christiangirl19 said,

    July 4, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    Geoff-
    I haven’t been reading a specific book on Mormon doctrine. I’ve found most of my information online actually, although I do have a Book of Mormon. I’ve looked at a few different sources- the main lds website (mormon.org), a few sites explaining some of the more complex doctrine (that isn’t found on the main site), some sites with testimonies of former Mormons, as well as some sites that compare what the Bible says compared to what the LDS church believes. I’ve tried to look at them all objectively.

  65. geoff456 said,

    July 5, 2009 at 12:19 am

    Here Kitty, kitty, kitty!

    Sorry Catz….I seem to have gotten you mad at me. More of my “humor” that doesn’t come across with the written word!

    I was just havin’ a little fun with you! anyway, I didn’t purposely NOT answer your question. but it is a little obvious isn’t it? of course the Bible doesn’t say that it, in and of itself, is not translated correctly. Just look at all the contraditions that shem pointed out. The Bible is true as FAR as “man’s memory”, “man’s translating ability” ….heck how about the difference between the NIV and KJV??? Both respected translations but each different!
    There are also NUMEROUS references to books of the Bible and prophets that are no longer in the Bible. Please remember that LDS people believe in the Bible. We study it, we refer to it, we love it!

    IF you were to study the Book of Mormon, you would discover (like I have) that the Bible and the Book of Mormon are completely compatible.

    Sorry this is your last post to me 😦

    Geoff

  66. geoff456 said,

    July 5, 2009 at 12:36 am

    KO,

    Yes, I believe there is ONE God the Father. ONE God the Son (HIS father gave Him the power to be God) and God the Holy Ghost (who also received his power from God the Father, the ONE AND ONLY GOD.) That is Biblical.

    Do you truly want to limit God? to infer that HE can’t give His power to whomever He wants?

    The Trinity is NOT mentioned in the Bible. It is heresy and was gotten up by uninspired men 325 years after the death of Christ. It was a man-made law, made to quell the differences in the groups of Christians.
    Sort of like Obama telling us to accept abortion. evil, false and man-made.

    I know what the Dead Sea Scrolls are…..duh. And what makes you think there is NO evidence of the Book of Mormon? There is actually plenty..but only those with eyes can see! I imagine that someone can deny anything they want. I can’t force you to “see”.

    Oh, and I do trust the Bible……Stephen saw God and so did Moses to name 2. So, is that another contradiction or perhaps there are a few errors in the Bible? Joseph Smith made a correction that answers that; to paraphrase: No man has seen God EXCEPT HE BEAR RECORD OF THE SON. That is the perfect answer to the apparent contradiction or error because NO MAN has seen God without bearing witness of His Son as well.

    hope your 4th was a happy one. We enjoyed a wonderful day at the beach!

    Geoff

  67. geoff456 said,

    July 5, 2009 at 12:52 am

    KO,

    One more thing.

    ” Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first”.

    It is 100% appropriate to use the KJV translation to say that this means simply that before the Lord comes again, there will be a “falling away”. This falling away was underway soon after the Savior died. that is why the Apostles had to pound away at doctrine to teach the Saints to obey. ….the book of James for example. he was already having to explain again the importance of faith AND works.

    see ya.

    geoff

  68. osbornekristen said,

    July 5, 2009 at 2:26 pm

    If there is historical evidence…(ie artifacts, ancient records, ruins, etc.) please share them with me. I am interested in knowing about them. I have great eyes actually. I would like to use them to see for myself the proof that you are speaking of. I am not trying to deny facts…..because I have yet to see any that point toward their existance….only those which contradict them. It is not my goal to seek to insult you. If there is evidence of these people and events from the BK of M, I’d like to know about it. Don’t just accuse me of being too blind to “see.” Please inlighten me since you know things that I don’t. 🙂

  69. geoff456 said,

    July 5, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    since i am on vacation and away from my home library, i googled “archaeological evidence of the Book of Mormon”
    🙂

    thanks,
    geoff

  70. geoff456 said,

    July 5, 2009 at 10:05 pm

    Hi, this is Vonnie,
    What Geoffrey was trying to say in his “cheeky” way was this: we have faith that the Book of Mormon is true. We don’t need to see ruins to believe. I imagine it is the same with you. Do you “need” to see Biblical “proof” to believe?
    But there is plenty of evidence for those not of our faith to “see”.

    love,
    Vonnie

  71. shematwater said,

    July 6, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    CHRISTIANGIRL

    Let me address the contradictions between the Bible and LDS doctrine.

    We can be Gods-
    “The Lord created you and me for the purpose of becoming Gods like Himself.” – Journal of Discourses 3:93
    Bible says we don’t- “Before Me there was no God formed, and there will be none after Me.” – Isaiah 43:10

    Read verse 11 of Isaiah 43. It states “I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.” So, is this a reference to the existance of other gods, or to the existance of other saviors? It can be interpreted either way, and with the idea that he is speaking of his calling as savior it is in perfect harmony with LDS doctrine.

    God’s Word includes more than just the Bible-
    Mormon doctrine considers three books to be the Word of God in addition to the Bible: The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants.
    The Bible says: “I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God shall add to him the plagues which are written in this book.” – Revelation 22:18

    Read this verse again. What is it actually talking about? It is talking about a prophecy. Notice the term is singular. Thus we can understand that what John is saying only concerns the book of Revelation and not the entire Bible. Put this with a few historical facts; John wrote his gospel after he wrote this revelation. His epistles were also written at a later date. But, most importantly, the Bible did not exist at the time he wrote this. The Bible is a collection of writings that was assembled a few centuries later. Thus, when he wrote the book of Revelation it was all by itself, and thus could only refer to itself. It was only later that unispired men interpreted it in the way you have quoted it.
    (read Isaiah 29 about the prophecy of a Book coming forth during a time of great darkness. Notice the emphasis that it was not brought forth by scholars.)

    Eternal marriage (the original discussion of this blog entry!)-
    “If I have children, if I have a wife, I shall have them in eternity.” – Gospel Truth p.93
    The Bible: “For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven.” – Matthew 22:30

    Okay, this is a little trickier, but bare with me.
    Read the entire story in Matthew (and the parallels in other gospels). What are they asking, why are they asking, and what subject are they using as a base?
    They are asking concerning the resurrection. This really doesn’t help.
    Their motivation is to trip Jesus and condemn him. Again not to helpful.
    However, the base of their question, the idea of a man marrying his brother’s widow. Now, that can be useful. What is this a reference to? This is a reference to the “Law of teh near kinsman” as given in the Law of Moses. This is given in Deut 25: 5-10, from which I now quote verse 5 and 6 (from the KJV): “If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband’s brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband’s brother unto her. And it shall be, that the firstborn which she beareth shall succeed in the name of his brother which is dead, that his name be not put out of Israel.”

    So, this is the basis of their question. So, is Christ, in answering, saying that marriage does not exsist in heaven, or is he saying that this law does not exist? He tells them they do not know the scriptures. Is he saying that the example they use does not apply to marriage in heaven, or that marriage is not in Heaven?
    Either could be true, and thus, depending on how you interpret the scripture, there is no contradiction.

    “Why would Paul write in 1 Corinthians chapter 7 that it is good for a man not to marry (verse 1)?”

    This is a common reference, and one that people do not seem to understand. Read the entire chapter. In verse one he tells us that he is addressing something he has said in the past (in another epistle which we do not have). He then explains what he meant by this in verse 2-5. He then tells us in verse 6: “But I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.” Thus he is telling us that this is not from God. This is his personal oppinion that he had to get permission to teach. I say this as fact for later, in verse 10 he says: “And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord…” So he has now switched back to giving the commands of the Lord. Then in verse 12: “But to the rest speak I, not the Lord.” He again switches to his own opinion.
    Why did he say this? Whay was he allowed to say this? I have no idea. But he does tell us that this is his own thoughts, not the commands of God, and not the doctrine of the Gospel. Thus, if others speak the will of God and contradict his opinion, I will believe the command of God.

    Did God create mankind?
    “…They are unlearned in the things of God… God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all.” – Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith p. 350
    Bible- “Then the Lord God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” – Genesis 2:7

    In Genesis, what is created? The physical body. It is formed from the dust. Then God breaths in “the breath of life” or puts the spirit in what he created. Thus these to references are in harmony. Joseph Smith never denied that our physical bodies were created by God, only that our spirits were. In Genesis the same thing is stated.
    No where in the Bible does it say that the spirit of man was created. It was given, it was breathed into them, it was formed, but it was never created.

    Here is a good explanation of the apparent contradiction between LDS doctrine and the references you gave. When considered, there is no real contradiction. The contradiction only exists in the way certain verses are interpreted.

  72. shematwater said,

    July 6, 2009 at 12:36 pm

    GEOFF, OSBORNE

    I have a wonderful quote for you, even though I cannot remember who said it. It goes right to the heart of the matter of proving either the Bible or the Book of Mormon true.

    “For one who has faith no proof is necessary. For one who has no faith, no proof is possible.”

    People who cannot see the evidence for the Book of Mormon don’t want to see it. People who do see it don’t need to see it.

    As to the whole Dead Sea Scrolls and other translations of the Bible, my only thought is that you are trusting in the learning of men to translate it correctly, while I am trusting in the power and knowledge of God to convey the truth to me.

    Now, there was mention of the Joseph Smith translation and why we don’t use it. The reason for this is very simple. We are law abiding citizens (at least we are supposed to be). The copyright for that translation is held by the Reoganized church (now community of Christ). If we were to try and publish it we would be in violation of the Law of the Land. As such we do not use it in general. However, if you can get your hands on a copy (or just use that which we are able to publish) it is of great benefit, and we are counseled to do so as much as possible. In truth, I have been to few church meetings where we discussed the Bible that we did not reference it at least once. We even had a lesson on it at one point.
    (And oh yeah, it was never completely finished.)

  73. christiangirl19 said,

    July 7, 2009 at 6:51 pm

    Shem,
    I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions. I appreciate the enthusiam, thank you.

    That being said, I still have issues with almost all of them.

    Regarding if we can become gods-
    Verse 11 of Isaiah 43 says that apart from God, there is no one else who is saviour and Lord. I know Mormons and Christians differ on the idea of the trinity, but to me Jesus (the saviour) and God the Father are ONE GOD- so by reading the next verse of Isaiah, it appears as if God is reconfirming that he is the only God. There is no one else who can accurately claim to be Lord or Saviour. I don’t see how that references the presence either other gods or other saviours.

    Not adding to the Word of God-
    I see your point that the verse in Revelation was referring to the specific prophecy. How about Deuteronomy 4:2, Deuteronomy 12:32 and Proberbs 30:5-6? They all have the same idea that you’re not to add or subtract from God’s commands.

    Marriage in Heaven-
    I did follow your explanation there, thank you. I also see your point that Jesus was either referring to the law not being necessary or marriage in heaven not happening. However, just by reading the words, it looks as if it’s that maybe both are true. The men were all concerned about the poor woman who married 7 brothers, and Jesus basically said “you don’t know the Scriptures… with the resurrection, they do not marry”- as if, don’t worry about the woman! It doesn’t matter!

    I truly have to disagree about the passage in 1 Corinthians as well. I can see your point about how it was Paul saying it is good for you to not marry. However, I believe that all scripture is inspired by God- and if God wanted to command us to marry, I do not believe Paul would have gotten away with saying otherwise. In fact, in verse 7, Paul said that God gave some the gift of singleness, and others the gift of marriage. Singleness- a gift! From God!

    As for the body being created and the spirit not- that is a really interesting thought you posed. Where do you think the spirit came from then? Was it just always there, waiting for a body?
    Check out Psalm 139:13:
    For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother’s womb. (KJV) – okay, so I’m left wondering: “what the heck are my reins?”
    I’m going to post the NIV translation:
    For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.
    – I don’t think he’s talking about the pancreas and small intestines here!

  74. osbornekristen said,

    July 8, 2009 at 12:20 am

    Shem,
    The Deseret Press is selling this JST of the New Testament. http://deseretbook.com/store/product/4772990

    If they can sell this…….why doesn’t the church use the part they are allowed to publish instead of the KJV? Apparently, it is your belief that because God supposedly gave the words straight to Smith that his version is more pure and more correct. Is the church afraid to say they trust the JST over the KJV?

    I went to lds.org and reviewed the differences they note in the scripture passages in the KJV vs the JST. I am shocked……at the differences. I guess I shouldn’t be that shocked considering everything else I have learned that he claimed as “revelation.” I am dumbfounded that the church considers what ever he said…..automatically goes….even when it contradicts the Bible. His translation obviously changes things so that his doctrinal teachings fit. It is interesting how many of the changes directly focus on verses that do not fly with LDS teachings.

    From what you guys have stated, LDS think any other translations other than KJV and JST are just plain wrong and heresy. However, each translation (NIV, NASB, etc.) was written with painstaking accuracy using the BEST artifacts and the BEST scholars from around the globe. The wording/language may vary, but NOT ONE doctrinal issue is altered in any of them. Most Christian churches/pastors use multiple versions when teaching a certain verse. My pastor frequently compares translations when teaching……because they DO NOT conflict in their message……they all reflect the same concept.

    This cannot be said for the JST version. Smith completely changes the meaning. You cannot believe both the KJV and JST on some of these verses. These are not petty little verses either……this is MAJOR doctrinal stuff.

    Here are a couple of examples:
    Exodus 3:20
    And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. (KJV)

    20 And he said unto Moses, Thou canst not see my face at this time, lest mine anger be kindled against thee also, and I destroy thee, and thy people; for there shall no man among them see me at this time, and live, for they are exceeding sinful. And no sinful man hath at any time, neither shall there be any sinful man at any time, that shall see my face and live. (JST)

    (Smith is obviously trying to explain how he was able to see God when the Bible says it is impossible. He changes he message from no man being able to see God to no sinful man is able to see God.)

    Romans 4: 16)
    16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, (KJV)

    16 Therefore ye are justified of faith and works, through grace, to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to them only who are of the law, but to them also who are of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. (JST)

    (Major cornerstone of the Christian faith is changed here…..Smith adds works to the teaching that grace alone is enough)

    There are SO many more of these examples! I am amazed at the gall of this man to completely change the Word of God in order to fit his teachings. Again, you are trusting a MAN……..instead of God.

    Though I see that it is more than obvious that he just added or got rid of what best fit and supported his claims, but even if you do believe he had divine revelation…..how can you be sure that he did not make a typo or a misprint. You are placing all of your bets on the truths of one human, imperfect man. The Bible is solid and unchanging.

    I am also tired of reading that Smith was an “uneducated farm boy…..how could he have just come up with this stuff on his own?” Hitler was a high school dropout…..and convinced millions to follow him and his teachings. Abraham Lincoln’s formal education consisted of about 18 months of formal schooling and look what he did for our country.

    Again, subtle deception is Satan’s specialty. I can almost see his evil grin as Smith makes Jesus’ death (grace) not enough…..and takes away God’s extreme power/holiness by teaching that “good” men can see God on earth.

    “And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.” Matthew 24:11

    “And her prophets have daubed them with untempered morter, seeing vanity, and divining lies unto them, saying, Thus saith the Lord GOD, when the LORD hath not spoken.” Ezekiel 22:28

    “But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.”
    2 Corinthians 11:3-4

  75. shematwater said,

    July 8, 2009 at 11:52 am

    CHRISTIANGIRL

    Let me try and help a little more with a further explanation of our beliefs, and how they fir the Bible.

    As to the Plurality of Gods. I understand what you believe, but I have not seen it in the Bible. In fact, I have seen much evidence to the contrary. Christ came up, out of baptism, the Holy Ghost desended, and the Father spoke from heaven. Seems very separate and distinct. In John 14: 28 Christ tells us that his Father is greater than he is. How can they be one being with one being greater than the other?
    As to the Father and Son being One, I agree. But in the same sense as me and my wife are one (Mark 10: 8). We are not one entity, one being. We are very separate and distinct, but we are one in that all we do we do together. We are one family. The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all one, but one presidency, one Godhead (Did you know that the term Godhead is used three times in the Bible – Acts 17: 29, Romans 1: 20, Collosians 2: 9 – but the word trinity is not used even once). In John 17: 11 Christ asks that the Apostles be made one in the same way that He and His Father were one. If they were actually one being (in three parts) than this request was not honored as the twelve did not become one. However, if they are one in their Godhead, one in purpose and power, then this was honored, as the twelve became one quorum, in in purpose and power.

    As to adding to the scriptures. I know the scriptures you site. However, I would ask that, if you want me to believe these mean you can’t add to the Bible then the one in Proverbs is of no consequence, as Deuteronomy was written first, thus making proverbs an addition to it. All these verses would also make the New Testiment an evil addition to the Bible, as all of it was written hundreds of years later.
    However, when you understand that these are speaking of men adding to the scriptures these problems are all cleared up. After all, it is God’s word so he has the right to add to them all he wants (which he quite obviously did after these statements were made). So, it all comes down to the question “Are the scriptures of the LDS church added by men or by God?” That is what needs to be established. The fact that they were added is not enough.
    Here is one of my favorite quotes from the Book of Mormon:
    2 Nephi 29: 6-8
    “Thou fool, that shall say: A Bible, we have got a Bible, and we need no more Bible. Have ye obtained a Bible save it were by the Jews? Know ye not that there are more nations than one? Know ye not that I, the Lord your God, have created all men, and that I remember those who are upon the isles of the sea; and that I rule in the heavens above and in the cearth beneath; and I bring forth my word unto the children of men, yea, even upon all the nations of the earth? Wherefore murmur ye, because that ye shall receive more of my word? Know ye not that the testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another? Wherefore, I speak the same words unto one nation like unto another. And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.”
    (I would suggest reading the entire chapter as it is beautiful.)

    As to the marriage thing, my only point before was to show that that particular verse really does not prove it one way or the other. Now let me show you a few things that I believe give further support to the LDS doctrine.
    First, Adam and Eve were married while in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 2:24-25). I think we all agree that while in the Garden they lived in an eternal state, thus making this marriage eternal.
    I now go to the book of Job. In chapter one , verses 2-3, we read “And there were born unto him seven sons and three daughters. His substance also was seven thousand sheep, and three thousand camels, and five hundred yoke of oxen, and five hundred she asses, and a very great household; so that this man was the greatest of all the men of the east.”
    Then, in chapter 42, verses 10 and 12-11, we read “…also the Lord gave Job twice as much as he had before….So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses. He had also seven sons and three daughters.”
    Now, we know in the end he had twice what he started with. So the math should add like this.
    Start (Finish) = Sheep 7,000 (14,000) Camels 3,000 (6,000) yoke of oxen 500 (1,000) Asses 500 (1,000) Sons 7 (14) Daughters 3 (6)
    Since he was given double he should have ended his life with the numbers of each given in perentheses. However, we read that he only had three more daughters and seven more sons. This is not double, so the scriptures have contradicted themselves.
    However, when you understand that the ten who were killed (1: 18-19) are still his children, sealed to him for all eternity, you can now say that the Lord did give him the 20 children that would fit with the doubling of his blessings.
    Marriage being required is supported in the following two references.
    1 Corinthians 11: 11 Paul says “Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” While I have heard other interpretation of this verse, it sound to me as though he is stating that one cannot be saved without the other.
    This is further supported by 1 Peter 3: 7 “Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.” So even Peter tells us that it is together we are heirs of the Grace of Christ.
    As to what Paul said, all scripture is inspired of God. However, as I said, Paul is telling us that this is not. He says so specifically. Thus, either he is lieing, or this advice is not real scripture. As to getting away with it, I think he could. Even in the LDS faith the command to marry (or its requirement for exaltation) was not known for the first thirteen years of the churchs existance. All things are give Line Upon Line. Thus, if this had not yet been revealed he could have gotten away with it.
    However, I think it had been revealed, as he later, in the same epistle, says that a man cannot be saved without the woman (see above). His words truly speak more to giving yourself over to the ministry. “Stay single so that you can more easily preach the word. If that is not your calling than forget I said it.”

    As to the Spirit. The spirit of every man was created in the same basic way that the physical body was. By this I refer to the act of Procreation. As my father and mother here on earth bore my physical body, so my heavenly parents bore my spirit spirit. We are all the “offspring of God” (Acts 17: 28-29). I take this very literally. My spirit was not created, but it was born to God before this planet was ever formed.
    As to “Possessing the Reins” I have to say, after reading the entire Psalm, I think he was talking about the Pancreas and small intestine, as well as all the other organs. I think the NIV kind of goofed with it’s “inmost being.” It would more probably be “inward parts,” thus suggesting the internal organs (one reason I don’t trust the NIV).

  76. shematwater said,

    July 8, 2009 at 11:58 am

    OSBORNE

    There is little point in discussing with you. You are “one who has no faith” for which “no proof is possible.” I know you try to deny it, but your words do say otherwise.

    The reason I gave is perfectly true. I will admit it is not the only reason, but it is a lagitamate one.
    Another reason is that not everyone in the world can afford to buy the copies of the JST of the New Testiment, especially those in third world countries. Staying with the KJV and the portions of the JST that are published with it allow all the church members in the world to have a standardized set of scriptures.
    Joseph Smith did, at one time, preach from five different translations (KJV, the greek, the latin, and the hebrew). However, to do so now is not pratical and it likely to cause contension among the members as to which translation should be given a higher authority. Thus we use only one.

    The reasons for why the church does what it does are generally pretty strait forward to any one who isn’t out to tear us down.

  77. osbornekristen said,

    July 8, 2009 at 2:22 pm

    You are correct Shem. I DO NOT have faith in false prophets or their twisting of scripture to promote their own ideas.

    I have complete FAITH/TRUST in the claims of Christ.

    John 14: Jesus claimed, “Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father” (v. 9). He was saying that he spoke and acted for God because he was in God and God was in him (vv. 10-11; 17:20-23). He proclaimed that the Father and Son equally possess all the attributes of deity. In other words, Jesus was claiming to be God in the flesh.

    Yet, Jesus also made several distinctions between himself and his Father. First, his mission as the Son was to bring glory to the Father (v. 13). Second, he had come into this world because the Father had sent him (v.24). Finally, once his mission was complete he was going to the Father (v.28). Jesus also made distinctions between himself, his Father, and the Holy Spirit (v. 16, 25; 16:7-15).

    Jesus’ statement that the Father and he are one is as mysterious from our perspective as the Biblical teaching of the Trinity. Yet, because the Bible teaches the unity of God and the deity of Christ, we must exercise faith to believe that what Jesus taught is true. How exactly God’s one divine nature is a unity of three distinct but not separate persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, cannot be fully explained by human logic or reason.

    You can talk about your “faith” all day long. While you put absolute trust in the teachings of Smith, I put mine in those of Christ.

    Though the Bible never mentions the word “Trinity,” it is absolutely described. The word atheist is not mentioned either…..but I assume you believe that title does exist. Christians do believe that The Father, Son and Holy Spirit each have a unique function. For example, the Father chooses who will be saved (Eph. 1:4); the Son redeems them (Eph. 1:7); and the Holy Spirit seals them, (Eph. 1:13). But, they are co-eternal, co-equal, and co-powerful. They are one in essence. They are each fully and entirely God. Jesus has never had to “work” or “progress” to be like God. He IS God. And, he has ALWAYS been God. The members of the Godhead cannot exist without the other. This mystery takes absolute faith. This is the faith that I have. Faith in that what Jesus (aka God) says is true.

    While you like to speak of “proofless” faith, you show…..at least in this area….that you do not possess it.

    “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” (Romans 11:33-34).

    And please, no more quoting of Mormon Scripture when trying to prove a point. We don’t believe it to be true…..so it doesn’t add any weight to your argument what-so-ever.

  78. shematwater said,

    July 9, 2009 at 12:02 pm

    OSBORNE

    When did I quote “Mormon” Scripture to prove a point except to show what we believe. Every time I have set out to show that our beliefs are true (or at least Biblical) I have used only the Bible.

    I did quote from the Book of Mormon, but only after I made my point. It was not done to prove a point, but to show the actual reasoning behind the LDS faith.

    To tell me not to use the Book of Mormon to support LDS faith is like asking you not to use the Bible to support your faith. It is rediculous. I was aked how I, a Latter-Day Saint, reconcile verious statements made in the Bible with LDS Faith.

    Also, very little of what you say about Christ I would disagree with. You are just hung up on the differences that you can’t see it.

    As to not having Faith, you seem to illustrait the point very well, and at the same time have little understanding as to what is meant by the quote. Let me explain.

    There are those who have faith. For these people they need no proof that what they believe is true. They do not try and find aerceological evidence. They don’t need the words of ancient philosiphers. They believe it, and that is enough. However, this is not to say that their faith cannot be broken. Proof that what they believe is wrong can still change their mind. All it is saying is that they do not need validation that what they believe is true.

    Then there are those who don’t have faith. These are the ones who look at all evidence given and try to find some way of contradicting it. They are the ones who, no matter what the evidence is actually saying, they will find a way to have it mean something else to their mind. That cannot be true, and there must be something wrong with the evidence (or maybe there just is never enough evidence). These people are unwilling to change, no matter what is presented to them.

    Now this can apply in many ways. First, I have faith in the LDS church, and in Joseph Smith. Though I have seen the evidence, it really does not matter to me. One of the early leaders, when asked about cement in the Book of Mormon, said that it didn’t bother him in the least. The evidence would turn up sooner or later, and he was perfectly happy waiting. I have similar faith. Just because something is not known does not prove the LDS faith wrong, adn I am willing to wait for men to discover the truth.
    However, I do not have faith in the “trinity” that is believed by the rest of Christianity. As such, though I understand it all, the evidence given will never be sufficient for me to believe such.
    One the other hand, I have sufficient Faith in Christ that if he told it was true then I would change my beliefs in a minute.
    See how I can fall on both sides of this quote.

    Now, talking of you, you do not have faith in the LDS church or Joseph Smith. So, even if they found a tomb with the name of Nephi inscribed on it, and a record on plates that matches the Book of Mormon, you would dismiss it, or find some way to make it insufficient to alter your beliefs.
    On the other hand, you do have faith in the classic Christian “trinity” and need no real evidence for you to believe it. The simple fact that it is not mentioned is not sufficient to prove it wrong.

    So, as you see, we are in the same condition with regards to faith, and that is why I brought it up at that time I did. You want proof, but no matter what we say you will never except it as proof, so why ask. This is why I have very rarely asked for proof of your faith, because it really doesnt matter to me, and most likely I will find a way to tear it apart.

    I have always been an advocate of not giving proof, but simply explaining our beliefs, and letting anyone who reads this decide for themselves.

  79. osbornekristen said,

    July 9, 2009 at 1:31 pm

    Oh yes, if the golden plates were found, real artifacts unearthed and evidence did support that Smith was indeed a prophet……I would believe in the Book of Mormon, D&C. However, for me, that would mean believing that the Bible was false. The two cannot be both believed. They teach different doctrine, a different Jesus and a different way to get to live with him in eternity……….face it. I have COMPLETE FAITH that this will never happen. The Bible is the complete and total word of God. There is no evidence to prove otherwise…….but I also personally know the one whose hand guided the scribes to write it. I have COMPLETE TRUST in Him. I believe that what he says is true.

    The folks in the NT were praised when they studied the Word to make sure that the apostles were teaching the TRUTH. It was a GOOD thing for them to study and investigate.

    Acts 17:11 “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

    The Thessalonians were considered guiable and easy deceived. This is why Paul tells them in 1 Thess. 5 “Do not scoff at prophecies, but TEST EVERYTHING THAT IS SAID. Hold on to what is good. Stay away from every kind of evil.”

    He goes on to say in 2 Thess 2,
    “1 Now, dear brothers and sisters,[a] let us clarify some things about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and how we will be gathered to meet him. 2 Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us. 3 Don’t be fooled by what they say.”

    The Bible says it is foolish to JUST believe what men claim. It is WISE to search for the truth in God’s word.

    All the proof I need to believe that we worship the same Christ and both understand the gift of grace is to search your LDS doctrine and test it against the Word of God. Unfortuantely, I have found that it doesn’t. And that, my friend, is proof enough for me.

    The bible is pretty darn clear that Jesus did /does not have to progress into Godhood. He is God in the flesh. He is NOT our literal brother. He has always been and always will be God. To make him anything less than fully God/fully man is unbiblical. The fact that the LDS church refutes this claim of Christ’s deity is alone proof enough that their teachings and belief system are not correct.

  80. geoff456 said,

    July 9, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    KO,

    You have NO Faith in a man, HUH?…so, what about Peter, James, John, Mark, Matthew, Luke, Paul, Abraham, Moses, Noah, Enoch, Adam, John the Baptist, Elijah, etc, etc, etc.?

    Heavenly Father WORKS through men. He reveals his secrets to His servants the prophets. (loosely quoted) Jesus Christ HIMSELF has chosen Joseph to restore the Gospel and the Priesthood to the earth at this time. YOU are dissing the Savior with your ravings.

    Joseph Smith is a prophet of God. You will meet him someday. You will be horrified as all the obnoxious things you have written about him flash before your eyes. You will squirm and feel deep shame. You WILL answer for it all. Hopefully you can play the ignorance card. Good luck.

    Geoff

  81. catzgalore said,

    July 11, 2009 at 8:59 am

    Are you and Shem the same person? You both have the same habit of taking what someone says and taking it to the extreme and putting words in our mouths. You KNOW that’s not what she’s saying! I understand, it’s easy to get frustrated when people don’t believe what you want them to believe– when they seem to be hardheaded, stubborn, and loyal to something you disagree with (and I admit that my answers are not always gentle either!).

    I said I would not answer you, but I must defend the LORD. You said Jesus Christ HIMSELF has chosen Joseph to restore the Gospel and the Priesthood to the earth at this time. The truth is that Satan has chosen Joseph Smith as an instrument of deception!
    I pray for you, that God would open your eyes and show you His mercy and grace, and that you are nothing but a sinner and need a Savior that will forgive ALL your sins– and that all your works are not effective to save you (or exalt you to godhood either). I pray that He would open your eyes to the truth of the deceptive Mormon church that has been gradually changing its doctrines so to not be so offensive and blend in better.Remember that they stopped polygamy because it was illegal even after they said you couldn’t get to heaven without being polygamous– they conformed to THIS WORLD!! Is that what God would have us do?

    I think about all the people in the world that would be excluded from your heaven– including the author of some of the psalms, David. The man that God called the man after God’s own heart… excluded. People who choose not to marry… excluded. If the early leaders of you church had there way, dark skinned people… excluded. Only the white and delightsome would be there.

    The ones excluded from God’s presence are going to be the ones that do not trust in Jesus ALONE. Not “after all we can do”. When is the church going to discard that little part? Watch– they will. They will get rid of the rest of the troublesome things and try to pretend to be Christian. It is already happening! Some formerly solid doctrines have already been modified! (the hat has never been proven, the guy that said that got canned… the men on the moon weren’t REALLY there, he was talking about the levels of heaven… blacks CAN have the priesthood, that was not REALLY what he was talking about… polygamy is not REALLY necessary, etc etc etc. If something is bothersome, then there will just be a new revelation to change it! I’ve been told, by a Mormon, that it’s not that big a deal– but if your prophet said it, shouldn’t it be a big deal?) No one but Satan could orchestrate such a massive deception. I pray that God would save you– that YOU will not be the one horrified because of the importance you place on a mere man (Joseph Smith as well as yourself). You worship THE CHURCH and would be loyal to it even if it was proved wrong, which it has been over and over again! You have faith in Joseph Smith, you follow his teachings (or do you? How do you know? So many have been changed!), you think he was a man of God. He is your god!

    May God have mercy upon you.

  82. osbornekristen said,

    July 11, 2009 at 11:58 am

    Thanks for that Catz.

    Meeting any of the apostles in Heaven (though that will be pretty cool!) has never been something I have given much thought……they are great, godly men…..called by God….and I believe what they wrote to be true because it was inspired by God…….while I believe the words of Smith to be made up with some help from the GREAT DECEIVER!!

    I can’t wait for the day I meet Jesus!!! I am not worried in the LEAST about meeting Smith…….he has NOTHING to do with my salvation……what-so-ever!!! Nor, do the apostles…..although their message of Truth taught me to know the Lord.

    I will not answer for standing up for TRUTH…..for that is what God calls us to do! God is the only one I have to answer to and Jesus will stand in my place for any of my sins.

    Geoff, you need to think before you speak………has Vonnie not taught you anything? You are quick to tell me my destiny and condem me! Have I EVER said what I believe will happen to you……no. But, I pray that the Holy Spirit will work in your heart to fill you with His Truth……..that His Truth and the Truth of God’s Word would overflow in your life and would open your eyes to the deception that has taken you in.

    If you have trusted Christ as your Lord and Savior and have a real, personal realtionship with him, I believe that when you get to Heaven……the Lord will say…..”Geoff, I wish you’d known that my grace was enough and all the “rewards” you will receive from me won’t be to exalt you or bring about your godhood…….but to exalt and glorify me!” Then, I believe you (like the rest of us) will humbly lay any of the crowns you are given at the feet of Jesus…..and realize that He really was enough!

    Spend some time in the word…….reading about how much God loves you! Realize that it is a LOVE LETTER from our God to His children……..children he adores!

  83. shematwater said,

    July 11, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    CATZ

    You really shouldn’t try and talk about others faiths when you have no clue what you are saying. Your last post had almost nothing in it that was true, or that was ever taught by the church in age of the world.

    First, LDS doctrine has never changed to conform to the world. It is only ignorant fools who claim that it has because so doing lends credability to their own confused thrologies.

    Polygamy – show me one place where any leader said that a man had to have more than one wife enter what you so snidely refer to as “our Heaven.” There is none, because this was never taught. What was taught was that all had to accept polygamy as a devine and Celestial law, not that they had to live it. There is a great difference in this.

    David – While he started out after God’s own heart, he ended up a murderer. While you are right that he will not be in the Celestial Kingdom, why would he be?

    Black People – again, you show such ignorance about the true doctrine that you are easily lead by those evil men who want nothing but to destroy the truth of God. Never was it taught that the Black race could not enter the Celestial Kingdom. They were under restrictions while in this life, but they were never denied the presence of the Father. Even when Joseph Smith first taught these restriction, he understood that a time would shortly come when such restrictions would be lifted, and all the blessings of the Gospel would be given to all people. So you snide remark about what early church members wanted only shows your own hostility and ignorance.

    As to David – this is the only part you got right, for he is a murderer.

    Now, let us list all the people who are denied heaven in your theology. Actually, I will mention just one group, which takes all the justice that is supposedly in God and destroys it. It is Christian belief that those who never had a chance to know the gospel are damned. The savage who lived beyond the reach of the gospel for thousands of years. There are billions that you do not even give a chance. At least we give all men a chance to learn and come to Christ.

    Now, you also mentioned those who chose not to marry. I will take this one further and say that those who chose not to follow the commands of God will be denied the Celestial glory.

    Now that we have examined the LDS perspective, and corrected the ignorant statements made, let us examine Christian theology just a little.

    According to Christians what you do cannot save you, only the grace of Christ (which I agree with by the way). To take this from a Christian perspective one of two things have to be true.
    1. Everyone who confesses Christ is saved, regardless of what they do. So, Hitler has an equal chance at salvation as Peter, or Moses. Following this logic, what is the point of obeying God? As long as I “believe” in him I am going to be saved, so why not “Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die; and it shall be well with us.”
    However, most Christians don’t really like this idea, because then sin has no meaning, which would totally contradict the Bible. So they go with perspective #2: If you commit an evil act it will condemn you, but no good act you commit will effect you in any way. Now, this does put emphasis on sin, just like the Bible, so most people are content with it. However, they fail to see the absolute stupidity in it. If God is going to punish wickness than he must reward righteousness or he is not just. (Deut 32: 4 – “A God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.”
    Of course, most people truly do understand that this perspective makes God unjust, so they always answer this with their old stand by response “HIs ways are not our ways.”

    They cannot understand their own faith, and so the they must find something wrong in the faith of others.

    The truth is that God the Father and his Son have always worked through prophets, men given the authority to act in their name. The truth is that Joseph Smith was such a prophet, but even more. He is the head of this last dispensation in the Fulness of Times. He is one of the Archangels, and will sit as a God in the kingdom of Heaven. The truth is that any person who denies these facts will suffer for all eternity with the Knowledge of what they could have had if they had only been willing to let the Holy Spirit speak to them. They will be in the kingdoms of heaven, but they will live in an eternal hell as they torture themselves with regret.

  84. geoff456 said,

    July 11, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Hi Catz,

    No, I am not Shem, too. I am just Geoff…sorry, I am not smart enough to pretend to be 2 people ….and have you noticed that Shem is actually a lot nicer than me??!
    so….back to your post…..
    There you go, telling ME what I believe again! You do not have a clue what active, faithful members of my Church believe. You have admitted that your step-daughter-in-law doesn’t want to “talk” about church. So, what, exactly is your source?

    NO doctrine of the Church has been changed by our prophets. The Lord directs this Church, and He can change whatever He wants to. Have you forgotten that polygamy was sometimes OK in the Bible, and sometimes it wasn’t? It is a practice, not a “doctrine”. Doctrine deals with ordinances and laws, not “assignments” or practices. Any commandment, when obeyed, brings blessings. I don’t know where you got the idea that Polygamy was “necessary” for salvation. That is NOT true. And marriage is necessary for the HIGHEST degree of the HIGHEST kingdom. One can still live with God and the Savior and not be married. (and who REALLY doesn’t want to be married????, it isn’t a “punishment”….unless your husband isn’t as nice as me!)

    And what makes you think that Mormons give a “RIP” about Joseph using a hat to shield his eyes from the sun? Wow, that is heresy if I ever heard it!! 🙂 That is like saying your pastor’s socks don’t match! WHO THE HECK CARES???

    Can you give me any real Doctrine that has been “changed”?? No, because there hasn’t been any! And there never will be! God is the same yesterday, today and forever! HIS LAWS do not change. Timing changes, assignments change, practices change, but LAWS do not change.

    Satan is the master deciever. He has made YOU and other Christians think that you can’t possibly choose to do what is right. You are so sinful that you can’t help yourself! You CAN’T do anything “good” enough so why try? All commandments just show us how bad we are and how we can’t ever be good enough. (all of these examples were taken from Mark Cares and LDSWoman.)

    Now, our church and Gospel teach us to choose the right (awful, huh?) and to keep our bodies clean and pure (just horrible), to keep the commandments (yep, i know….we are sick) to know WHO WE ARE AND WHY WE ARE ON THIS EARTH….AND THEN TO KNOW WHERE WE ARE HEADED AFTER THIS LIFE. wow, the LDS Church is whacked out!

    Satan would like to keep YOU in the dark. I am NOT saying you follow Satan, or ANY Christian church is LED by Satan, I AM SAYING that if you are blinded to your possibilities and to your God-given talents and blessings and are lulled into complacency YOU will miss the boat!

    well, my time is up…more later!

    that should get you heated up a little!

    ~Geoff…the one and only!

  85. christiangirl19 said,

    July 11, 2009 at 5:56 pm

    Shem,

    1. Yes, it is only Jesus Christ who is able to save us, and what we do does not matter. If Hitler sincerely believed in Jesus and accepted it, I believe he will be in Heaven. There is a difference between flippantly saying “oh yeah I accept Jesus” and really meaning it, though. As an aside- Jeffrey Dahmer allegedly became a Christian in prison before he died. Sick and twisted as he was, I believe he’ll be in Heaven he did accept Christ!

    2. One sin makes us imperfect; whether that one sin is lying, using God’s name in vein, or murdering someone- one sin forever stains us. However, all humans are sinful by nature- ie, everybody sins. So, one sin, one wrong act condemns us in the sense that we’re forever separated from God because of it. God cannot be in the presence of sin, because he is perfect.
    You say then that one good act should be rewarded. One good act will not let us into Heaven, but God richly blesses us on earth in other ways. I also believe we will get a reward in Heaven for what we have done, which is what KO was talking about. How on earth does that make God unjust? And how on earth can you propose to be wiser than God??? (I know you didn’t say that in so many words, but it was implied.)

    The term “sin” originated from archery- meaning to miss the mark (the bull’s eye). Whether you were one inch or one mile away, you did not hit the bull’s eye. That is the same with God- whether you only gossipped one time or committed adultery or murdered 188 people, you missed his mark- God’s bull’s eye is perfection. That is a mark that will always be missed, by every single human being that has ever lived, and will ever live.

    You also claim that because David was a murderer, thus a bad/sinful man, he won’t be in Heaven. Here is the thing about sin: all sin is equal. One sin is not “worse” than another- each one misses the mark, just to reiterate the archery example. Murder is obviously more obvious and atrocious and has greater consequences than telling a lie does; however, both are evil in God’s eyes.

    Moreover, Jesus said that by hating someone, you have already committed murder in your hearts! (I John 3:15) So, before you go accusing David, think about all the people that have bothered and angered you, and have quite possibly hated. David sincerely repented (just read many of the Psalms, where he is torn up with guilt) and get this: GOD FORGAVE HIM! Just like God forgives us for the anger we have towards others, even if we don’t commit murder- he forgives us when we sincerely repent:
    “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.”1 John 1:9
    “So now there is no condemnation for those who belong to Christ Jesus.” Romans 8:1
    “As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.” Psalm 103:12

    How amazing it is to know that I will never be good enough and there is nothing I can do to earn God’s favour, but he gives it out freely to all who call on Jesus as their Saviour!

  86. catzgalore said,

    July 11, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    well. It didn’t get me heated up, it made me very sad.

  87. osbornekristen said,

    July 11, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Shem said,
    “He is one of the Archangels, and will sit as a God in the kingdom of Heaven.”

    First, Humans……Angels………totally different creatures.

    Humans do not become angels………ever. We were created for two different purposes. Angels do NOT become human…….though they often appear in human form as messangers………but they are NOT human.

    Jesus did not die for angels. They already chose who to serve….God or Satan when Satan was cast out of Heaven (those who chose Satan were became demons.) Satan was also an angel. He is NOT the literal brother of Jesus (aka God). Making him so = him with God Because Jesus is God in the flesh—fully totally God! Was Satan God too?

    I PROMISE that Smith is not an Archangel…..nor is Peter, James, John or any of the other apostles.

    Who came up with this theory of Smith becoming an Archangel anyway….did he? Show me….and show me where the Bible says that any humans will become angels.

    Luke 20:36 (NIV)
    34Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35But those who are considered worthy of taking part in that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36and they can no longer die; for they are LIKE THE ANGELS. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

    (KJV)-36Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

    Both versions describe us living LIKE or Equal to Angels…….but not as Angels. They both say that we are God’s children. We don’t change over to angels in death. We are now and will forever be his children. Meaning, that like the angels we will live in heaven as they do in realtionships that aren’t the same as the ones we have here on earth. Like the angels, we will spend our days praising our Father in Heaven…..but we won’t be them. We are two completely different types of creation.

    Is the capital G in God in your quote for real or a typo….cause God means the one and only God. god means one of many gods. Was that just a slip-up or do you believe Smith is gonna be equal to Christ?

  88. catzgalore said,

    July 12, 2009 at 8:26 am

    Since it better fits the changing definitions thread, I have posted my thoughts about doctrine on that thread.

  89. shematwater said,

    July 13, 2009 at 12:23 pm

    CHRISTIAN GIRL

    You misunderstand what I said. In my last post I was speaking of heaven in the way CATZ said “Your heaven” meaning the Celestial kingdom. Yes, David will be in heaven, but his works in this life have denied him the highest reward in that heaven.

    You said ” also believe we will get a reward in Heaven for what we have done, which is what KO was talking about.”

    Where is the difference in our beliefs? The only difference is in what we believe that reward will be. Nothing we do gets us to heaven, but what we do determines our rward once there. As you seem to believe this as well, please explain how it all works. I have yet to hear anyone outside the LDS church explain this.
    You all deny the idea of the Three degrees of Glory, yet your own words say that you believe almost the exact same thing. Why? Because the concept is in the Bible and you know it. There must be different rewards in heaven. I call them degrees, but it is the same basic concept.

    Now, as to sin, the only real reference that can be claimed to say that all sin is equal is in James 2: 10. However, when you actually understand this verying in rewards, or degrees, this verse can simply mean that all sin will keep you from the highest reward. After all, why do you want to teach people how to receive a lower reward than that which is possible.

    Also, Christ himself tells us that not all sin can be forgiven, thus not all sin is equal. (Matthew 12: 31-32 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.)

    It is much easier to believe that all sin is equal and that we can’t do anything for ourselves. With this we can just sit back, do basically what we want, and God will save us. But it is not true.

    As you point out “There is a difference between flippantly saying “oh yeah I accept Jesus” and really meaning it.” How do you know if you really mean it? You keep his commandments. At least this is the logic of the Christian world. Thus, only faith can save you, so don’t really worry about your works, but at the same time if your works are not right than you really don’t have faith so you have to worry about your works. Confusing, don’t you think. This is what many Christians have told me is true. they want to take works out of the equation, but admit that without them the equation doesn’t work.

    For most the equation is Faith + Grace = salvation.

    Now I have never argued this point. I hae simply pointed out that Works = Faith. Thus, by the laws of substitution, Works + Grace = salvation.

    However, as works cannot equal salvation the Christian world finds themselves in a bit of a dilema.
    So, I offer the LDS equation or Faith + Works + Grace = Salvation.

    OSBORN

    A quick comment, concerning your Luke quote. First, as far as I am concerned, Angels, Gods, Devils, and Humans are the same race. So, when Christ says like the angels, he is being very litteral. This is a continuation of the quote given in the question on eternal marriage, and so I give a continuation of my answer. Those who live this law (or more accurately, a Terrestial Law) will be angels in heaven, unable to marry, unable to have a continuance. (For a more detailed explanation read D&C 132).

    (What capital G in what quote?)

  90. geoff456 said,

    July 13, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    Just a little word to “ChristianGirl19”,

    At first I thought by your “pensive, tentative” language you were searching for truth. I kind of doubted it after the 2nd post, and NOW I really doubt it. I bet you are WELL skilled in anti-Mormon rhetoric. AND if Jeffrey Dahmer is going to be in heaven, count me out! I am old enough to remember the heinous nature of his crimes. He is evil beyond belief. It is twisted, sick and utter blasphemy to think he would make it to heaven. As Shem pointed out, YOU guys have condemned good, kind people to HELL and NOW you think Jeffrey Dahmer will be in heaven?????? SICK!

    You ladies need to re-read some of the things you have written! If that is modern day Christian belief then no wonder people are leaving in droves!

    ~Geoff

  91. catzgalore said,

    July 13, 2009 at 7:28 pm

    We serve a living, loving, forgiving God. But the only way that we can be forgiven is through Jesus! So yes, even though from our puny human perspective it doesn’t seem fair, Dalmer, Hitler, or some other heinous murderer could be in Heaven. And some self-righteous, well meaning person could be condemned! Those who think they have done lots of good works and ought to be rewarded may be among them!

    Of course, Dalmer would have to be a “new creature” meaning that Jesus paid for his sins. Then he wouldn’t be the same Jeffrey Dalmer, would he? God would look at him and see JESUS just like He looks at me and sees Jesus. I imagine there will be many repentant murderers, adulterers, and others that had committed more sinful things that we can imagine. NOT, of course, those that are actively pursuing those activities! God would have to grant them repentance! After all, Jesus forgave those that killed him! Would it be fair, from our perspective? Of course not. But God is indeed GOD. He can pardon whomever He wants.

    Yes, we will all get surprised when we go to be judged by the Lord. Think about what a sweet story of redemption will be told by those that have been forgiven much. I can’t wait to hear about what God has done!

  92. christiangirl19 said,

    July 13, 2009 at 8:04 pm

    Geoff,

    You are right and wrong about me. You’re right in that I will never convert to Mormonism, and I am quite passionate about this issue. However, I am searching for the truth: I have several friends that are Mormon, and I would like to know more about the differences between Mormon beliefs and Christian beliefs. I have hoped to not only get answers to the questions I have posed, but to get you thinking as well. I am trying to do all this with love, and I sincerely do not want to offend you or Shematwater.

    I appreciate that Dahmer is an extreme case, and I could not agree more that he was evil beyond anything imaginable. However, God is much bigger than any of that- he is big enough to forgive anything and everything! I think it is blasphemy to confine God to a box, not realizing his power and ability to save. This is the point I was trying to make in my last post, about how all sins are equal.

    The question/statement you posed about sending good people to Hell is really the million dollar question. However, without Jesus Christ as the payment for our sin, nothing is ever good enough. I think this idea is a big difference between Mormons and Christians. It is quite hard to imagine someone like Mother Theresa in hell- but I believe one sin forever condemns us to Hell. If these good people sinned even once, Hell is where they will be if they didn’t ask Jesus to forgive their sins.

  93. christiangirl19 said,

    July 13, 2009 at 8:06 pm

    Shematwater,
    I apologize for my mistake about your statement regarding David.

    Alright, I see your point that your reward is the highest level of Heaven. I believe Catzgalore or KO talked about getting to Heaven and getting a crown for her actions, which she would then give back to Jesus at his feet. The crown in this case is the reward. I don’t really have a good explanation for you, but the way I understand it is that there are 2 “places”: Heaven and Hell. All who have accepted Christ as their sin forgiver go to Heaven; those who have not are condemned to Hell. This is all independent of anything we do- it is solely based on whether we have accepted God’s gift of salvation. Once those who have accepted this gift get to Heaven, we are all in the same place, and are given a reward based on what we have done. I am not sure what this will be; I have read a few things about different crowns, although I’m not sure if that is literal or not. Take Joe, who has done nothing to further God’s kingdom and glory. He does not get a reward, but Phil who has done many good things would get a crown, for example. So the difference in reward is not a level of Heaven or any higher exaltation of ourselves- it is in the form of a different crown.

    The unforgivable sin, blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is a hard one to explain. I’ll give it my best attempt: The only unforgivable sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ’s offer of salvation, His free gift of eternal life, and thus, His forgiveness from sin. If you don’t accept His gift, you cannot be forgiven. If you deny the Holy Spirit’s entrance into your life, to work His sanctification in you, you cannot be cleansed from unrighteousness. Therefore, “blasphemy against the Holy Ghost” can be understood as a continued and persistently stubborn rejection of the gospel of salvation. This would be an “unpardonable sin” because as long as a person remains in unbelief, he voluntarily excludes himself from forgiveness of sin.
    Does that make sense? It is basically saying “I don’t need Jesus”. However, as he stated in John 14:6, he is the ONLY way- so by rejecting him (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) you have no way to be forgiven of your sins, ie it is an unforgivable sin to reject Jesus, because then you have no way to gain salvation.

    I think another difference about works is that Christians do them out of a desire to serve God, rather than attempting to help ourselves. We know what God has done for us, and we know that there is no possible way we could ever forgive him. However, we have such joy of our freedom in Jesus that we WANT to serve him! The works are an outward sign of what is going on within us; we are wanting to do some small part for God, for all he has done for us.
    Unfortunately many people do follow the “I’ll do whatever I want, and God will forgive me” idea. The problems with that are obvious. God is not a forgiveness vending machine! As for how a person is sincere in accepting Jesus Christ… well that is hard to say about someone else. In my own life, I know I am sincere because I have realized that I am nothing without Christ and I know my desperate need for a saviour. I have seen God working in my life and I believe in him. Unfortunately I can’t give a better answer than that. I have a desire to keep his commandments, but I am not stressing if I fail to do so.

  94. osbornekristen said,

    July 13, 2009 at 8:52 pm

    Guys,

    Just as you say we have a skewed view of Mormon beliefs, you have the same about those of Christians. I have so much that I want to say, but I feel most led to speak about the rewards in Heaven.

    You know, I was in church on Sunday singing “Amazing Grace” and I thought of you guys. You know that it was written by John Newton, who was a notorious salve trader. He was involved in horrible crimes against humanity…….babies being tossed overboard, etc. He is the self-proclaimed “wretch” in the lyrics. Do you sing this song in your wards? It was written by a slave trading murderer. A man who allowed and commanded that innocent children should die right in front of their mothers. When he says, “amazing grace” that is exactly what he means……it is AMAZING!! He truly understood God’s forgiveness. When he penned the words:
    “ When we’ve been here ten thousand years…
    bright shining as the sun.
    We’ve no less days to sing God’s praise…
    then when we’ve first begun.”
    Do you think he was speaking of being anywhere but in the presence of Almighty God? Of course not…….and that cannot be done anywhere but in what you would call the Celestial Kingdom……..what I would call anywhere that my Father/Jesus are (aka Heaven).

    So, onto the rewards in Heaven………the Bible certainly does speak of them…..just not any the context that you speak. There are degrees of glory….the sky, outer-space and Heaven. They are all made by the Lord and are therefore glorious……..with Heaven being the MOST glorious by far!! But, the passage that you get your whole “system” of levels of Heaven or “degrees of glory” is not where the Bible describes rewards for his children. Nor is the passage about many mansions. I do love this verse though! Of course there will be many mansions……where else would children of the King (aka us) live but a mansion! The Bible never describes some being bigger or grander…..it just says that there will be many…….for the many believers (or princes and princesses of the King!).

    The Bible does speak about 5 crowns for believers. These are the REWARDS that believers (who are saved by grace) can receive for their earthly life. These are described vividly in the Bible. However, though we will receive these rewards for our obedience on earth, they are not for our glory but for the Lord’s. These are gifts we will be given to lay at the feet of Jesus. Please seek these verses out for yourselves. These are the truth from Biblical scripture…..these are what you should be working for……gifts to give to your King….not a title as a god, ruler of a planet, or father to many spirit babies.

    1. The Crown of the Victor/ (some call it the incorruptible crown)
    This reward is for person who lives their life not for the fame or material pleasures of the world…but lives their life for Christ. This crown is given to believers who faithfully run the race. God calls some people to do things that will require some sacrifice in the way they will live and conduct their lives. Some people may be called to be a missionary in a far off and poor country. Some may be called to teach Sunday school or feed the homeless. This crown is for those Christians who care about what God thinks and don’t tire of living for Him and using their gifts to serve him on earth.
    1 Cor. 9:24-25 24Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.

    2. The Crown of Rejoicing (this crown has been called the Soul Winner’s Crown)
    This crown is for those who lead others to Christ…..folks who tell the “Good News of the gospel” and desire to help others know the saving grace of Christ.
    1 Thess. 2:19,20 19For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? 20For ye are our glory and joy

    3. The Crown of Righteousness (those who have “loved his appearing”)
    This is for believers who treasure the hope of Christ’s return. In other words, folks who are excitedly waiting and looking forward to the day that Jesus will bring us to Him. Most people in our world don’t give this a second thought…….but the Bible says those who do will be rewarded for their anticipation and hope of this great day!

    2 Timothy 4:8 “8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.”

    4. The Crown of Life (this is sometimes referred to as the martyr’s crown)
    Jesus says that He will give this crown to those who undergo severe hardship, testing, tribulation and/or physical death on His behalf. This crown is for folks like Stephen who were killed or severely punished for their faith. These people, even in face of persecution, resisted temptation and held fast to the faith!

    James 1:12 “12Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.”

    Revelation 2:10 “10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”

    5. The Crown of Glory (referred to as the pastor’s crown)
    This crown will be given to the ministers who faithfully feed the flock of God. This probably could also include Sunday School teachers, missionaries and all those who teach the Word of God in their respective ministries.
    1 Peter 5:1-4 “1The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3Neither as being lords over God’s heritage, but being examples to the flock. 4And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”

    As you can see each crown is given to those who do a good work on His behalf and these we will place at the feet of Jesus when we face Him face to face.

    While you (Shem/Geoff) often state your feelings that Christians think the “ grace only belief” is just a free ride with the ability live as we choose…..it is not. Yes, all those who have accepted the Lord as our Savior will live in Heaven WITH the Father and Jesus, but some will be sorry that they will not be able to offer Christ gifts when they stand before Him.

    Again, when Christians stand before Christ……there will be NO condemnation. There will be no accusations or judgment………for Christ has already covered our sins on the Cross. However, we will feel much remorse when we have nothing to lay at His feet. I don’t know about you, but I wanna be able to give MUCH glory to my King when I meet Him!!! This is what the rewards are for! They are for JESUS…..not to prance around in or show off. They are thank-you presents for our Savior!!

    The “Degrees of Glory” or Mormon reward system seeks to honor man. By doing certain things…..men get more…….a higher level in heaven, a planet to rule, “increase” or lots of spirit offspring. These are not only unbiblical but prideful, self-seeking awards for oneself. They give you more exaltation…..while the Bible tells of rewards that are done to lay at the feet of Jesus with no bragging rights.

    Do you disregard the crowns spoken of in scripture? Can you see why Christians don’t just go on sinning just because we are already saved? We want to live for Jesus because we desire to give Him all of the honor that he deserves!!

    I will post later about my feelings on King David…….and boy do I have a lot to say about that!

  95. catzgalore said,

    July 13, 2009 at 10:12 pm

    Kristen, thank you for this post. So many times when I feel like I’m in over my head, the Lord gives you words that I need. Thank you for being open to minister in this way.

    Praying for all who comment on this blog–

    Catz

  96. geoff456 said,

    July 14, 2009 at 8:21 am

    KO,

    Why do YOU assume that we keep the commandments FOR OUR OWN GLORY??

    We keep the commandments because WE LOVE THE LORD!

    That is ONE of the things that you have skewed!

    Are you forgetting that Jesus has promised us ALL THAT HE HAS??

    Why is it a “crime” to gain a reward, when the Savior HIMSELF has promised it? Don’t you think getting to heaven is a reward?

    I feel like the stuff you wrote about the crowns is very loosely connected to the scriptures. It is man-made, “feel-good” philosophy.

    geoff

  97. shematwater said,

    July 14, 2009 at 11:31 am

    GEOFF

    Beautiful.

    CHRISTIAN GIRL

    First, let me explain a little about the whole works thing that no one seems to understand outside the LDS church, and from what you have said seems to be almost exactly what you believe.

    Works are necessary to gain the reward, yes. But what constitutes works? Is it our actions, our thoughts, or our motivations? I say that it is all three. Actions carry more wait than thoughts, but what these two are judged by is our motivation. So, if I obey God to escape punishment my motivation is my own safty. If I obey to gain a reward and glorify myself my motivation is self-serving. But if I obey God because I love and trust him, my motivation is pure. So, only those who have this pure motivation behind their works will truly receive the highest reward. Brigham Young has stated that those who obey only for their own glory (either in this world or the next) will be condemned for that motivation in the judgement.
    So, we strive to obey because we love the Lord. Yes we hope for a reward, but we would serve even without that hope.

    As to the thoughts on the “unforgivable sin” read the verses again. Notice the “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him.” This is not denying Christ. This is not a rejection of the Gospel. This is a person who knows the truth, who has fealt the witness of the spirit, and then turns against it. For you it would be someone who was once a Christian and then became an Athiest, or pagan, or whatever. Someone who knows, and yet rebels. Thus, Blasphamy against the Holy Ghost is not the same as denying Christ.
    (While I understand you believe the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to all be one person, so I have to ask how a person can deny Christ but not deny the Holy Ghost?”

    OSBORNE

    Amazing Grace: I don’t care who wrote. No we don’t sing it. I really don’t like it. If the writer is guilty of the deaths of children he will enjoy the Telestial kingdom, but he will not rise any higher.

    “There are degrees of glory….the sky, outer-space and Heaven.”
    No, where do you get this? Is this from the reference in 2 Corinthians to the “Third Heaven?”

    “But, the passage that you get your whole “system” of levels of Heaven or “degrees of glory” is not where the Bible describes rewards for his children.”
    I assume you speak to 1 Corinthians 15. I would definitely have to disagree with you here if that is true. It comepares Resurrection to the verying degrees of glory, which would indicate that in the resurrection people are raised to different states (compared to the sun, moon, and stars) which, as far as I’m concerned, is a statement of reward.
    However, if you speak to John 14 I would still disagree with you. In this we are told there are many mansions, but that Christ is preparing a place that we can be with him, which would indicate that he will not be in all these mansions, and so only some will be with him, though many will be in his Father’s house. Being with him is quite obviously a reward.

    Now, I agree with Geoff that the crowns seem very flimsy as the reward we are to receive in heaven.
    Yes, these crowns exist, but in a symbolic way. In the Celestial Kingdom we will have Life Eternal (meaning an eternal increase), we will rejoice because we were victorious. We will be perfected in all righteousness, and thus we will have the glory of godhood conferred on us by the Father and the Son.

    However, if our reward is only to worship Christ for eternity, that doesn’t seem like much of a reward. In fact, it isn’t one. It is a reward given to Christ, but not to us. God has promised us a reward, and that reward is the same as Christ’s, for we are joint-heirs with him (Roman’s 8: 17). Thus, our reward must be greater than what you have described.
    I have not read in the Bible where we are going to give these “crowns” to Christ.

    “grace only belief” is just a free ride with the ability live as we choose…..it is not.”
    It was not meant to be, but all logic makes it that way, and thus it is adangerous doctrine to teach. If your works can’t get you into heaven, then logic says they can’t keep you out. So, if your goal is to get to heaven it really doesn’t matter what you do. This is the logic used by churches who condone Fornication, or homosexuallity, or other practices that directly apposed to God’s Law. It is a logical extension of the doctrine. The doctrine itself does not promote obedience to the Law.

    “I don’t know about you, but I wanna be able to give MUCH glory to my King when I meet Him!!!”
    I couldn’t agree more. So, as he is my Father (Acts 17:29 “we are the offspring of God”), and it is written in Proverbs that the grandchildren are the glory of grandfathers (Proverbs 17: 6) I hope to give him as many grandchildren as I can.
    In this the only glory I seek is that I have such a great Father (see Proverbs 17: 6 again). I glory in my Father, and give all honor to his Son and my eldest Brother. I seek not to glorify myself, but to glorify him. Yet I know that in glorifying myself I will have glorified him. (Moses 1: 39)

  98. geoff456 said,

    July 14, 2009 at 7:54 pm

    Bravo, Shem!!

  99. christiangirl19 said,

    July 14, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    Catzgalore,
    Thanks for your thoughts on what I had posted about some of the people that seem too evil to be saved. You quite eloquently put into words what I was trying to explain!

    Shematwater,
    Yes, I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one God. When we accept Jesus as Lord and saviour, the Holy Spirit comes into our lives; so, by denying Jesus and his gift, you are denying the Holy Spirit entrance into your life as well (because he only comes when you become a Christian). So yes, by denying one you deny the other- however, Jesus is the one that sacrificed himself for mankind, not the Holy Spirit.

    This works thing is a real difficulty. Basically, here is how I see it as a Christian: I know God forgave me because of Jesus’ sacrifice. Now I am guaranteed entrance to Heaven. Here on earth, I want to bring glory to God so that others can see him in my life, and to in some small way thank him for what he has done for me. When I get to Heaven, I will be rewarded based on what I have done- but that reward will be used to bring even more glory back to Jesus, as I’ll want to give the crown right back! I want to do as much as I can to earn as much of a reward as I can, because Jesus has done SO MUCH for me, that I want to do as much as I can for him (which is really nothing in comparison to what he’s done for me). My motivation is not so that I can have the biggest crown to show off to others in Heaven, or even to have people say “wow look at her, she is so great” here on earth. A simple way to do that is give the credit to God for everything- all the talents you have, the way things work out in your life, etc. I try to do that so that I remember I am nothing without him. I think I’ve gotten off track.

    KO,
    I also wanted to thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’ve really appreciated the research you have clearly put in, and I have learned a lot from the things you have said.

    Anyway I’m heading away on vacation tomorrow, so I probably won’t be around for a week or so. I’ll look forward to reading the comments when I get back!

  100. osbornekristen said,

    July 15, 2009 at 8:44 am

    Shem/Geoff,

    I spent 2 hours during my children’s nap time writing a rebutal to your remarks. However, as I have said before, only the Holy Spirit can show you Truth. I have written the truth of God’s word already. I am very sad that:
    1. You think giving rewards to your Savior wouldn’t be a “reward at all.”
    2. That spending eternity with Him isn’t enough of a reward for you.
    3. That fathering a bunch of spirit children with your wife/wives is the highest reward you can earn.
    4. That you are utterly deceived, yet you are convinced that I am.

    I can see why ya’ll don’t like the song “Amazing Grace.” It’s words don’t fit into your doctrine. I also am sad that you can’t listen to Christian radio and worship to those songs either because most of them reflect the same message.

    I am most sad that when Mormon Missionaries show up at peoples’ doors that they don’t share the kinds of things you have stated to me about your beliefs. For if they did, people would slam the door in their faces and know that they are not “just another Christian religion.”

    Thanks for sharing this stuff with me…….I will share it with folks I know so that they will know the truth of what LDS believe and not get sucked into to the false idea that Mormonism fits into mainstream Christianity as Romney and others try to proclaim. What a web of deception!

  101. shematwater said,

    July 15, 2009 at 1:57 pm

    CHRISTIANGIRL

    First, you really didn’t address anything I said concerning works, you simply repeated what was said earlier.
    Can you show me that the logic of the doctrine “saved by grace through faith” promotes good works. Your love may promote it, but not this doctrine. Thus, one can believe and be saved, but have no love for Christ and live the worst life you could imagine. This is the logic of the doctrine. Prove it wrong.

    Now, the problem with your explanation of denying Christ is that it is obvious from the text that you can deny Christ, and yet not deny the Holy Ghost. What you say is that to deny one is to deny the other, when they are made separate.

    OSBORNE

    1. Giving a reward to someone else is not rewarding me. That is a simple truth. If it was my idea, then it would be. But according to you it is being forced on me.
    A great comparrison. That was at one time (maybe even still) a fad going around. Buy a family in South America a new mule (or whatever) in the name of you husband or loved one. It was supposed to be the perfect gift to give your loved one. What kind of a gift is it. “Well I said I would give you a gift, so I gave this guy over here a present and told him it was from you.” Come on. That is not a gift.
    The same is true for the idea you present. If I want to give glroy and gifts to Christ (which I assure you, I do) I will give them. But to say that God is going to give Glory to Christ to reward me for my work is rediculous.

    2. Did you even read what I said. Spending eternity with him is enough, and always will be enough. However, I will not deny his promise to reward me, nor will I give back that which is given. To reject the gift is to reject the giver.

  102. geoff456 said,

    July 16, 2009 at 12:45 am

    KO,

    Hey, I am all for people using their talents! You seem to be real good at spreading a negative message! I will, however, continue to tell the truth about the Gospel of Jesus Christ to MY neighbors! I don’t tear down other people’s religions, I bear witness of my Savior through my actions and words.

    ~Geoff

    Oh, and Catz….sorry about the misspelled word….my bad. I kind of thought that misspellings were overlooked on blogs, at least I overlook your mistakes.

  103. geoff456 said,

    July 16, 2009 at 12:56 am

    Catz,

    I checked MY dictionary and it says: damnation: the act of damning.
    now, why can’t that mean what I say it means? Why all the fuss?

    Oh, and you DO get DAVID!! and just because I am a nice guy, I am going to throw in Hitler and Jeffrey Dahmer!

    SHEM,

    Gee, thanks! back at ya!

  104. osbornekristen said,

    July 16, 2009 at 11:05 am

    Geoff,

    I really think that you need to pray like David did in Psalm 51 (which was a prayer of forgiveness after Nathan the prophet came to David and told him that he had sinned)

    “10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
    11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. 12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit. ”

    To be glad or even to joke about folks being seperated from their Heavely Father is what is “SICK.” I am sad that anyone……even Hitler (though he was HORRIBLE) will spend eternity without God……..and SO is God!

    To be seperated from God (not getting in the Celestial Kingdom) is hell for the Christian. That fact that you beleive one can be “saved” but not live with the Father is an oxy-moron.

    It is ridiculous to think that David is not spending eternity with the Lord. He even says in 2 Samuel 12:23……when his son dies……”I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.” So, do babies not make it to the highest level? Cause David clearly says that he shall go to the baby……and that the baby won’t come to him. Since folks in the lower Kingdoms can’t go visit the upper ones…how does this make sense unless babies that die are apart from Heavenly Father?

    David’s sin was terrible……..in God’s eyes it is no more terrible than any other sin. Some sins just have GREATER consequences. The Book of Acts says taht David was a man after God’s own heart……..is this one of those verses that Mormons like has been translated incorrectly? I will investigate this one and see what the JST says about it!

    Why would a man after God’s own heart be in a lower kingdom?

    Also if murder keeps you from the “highest reward” Paul and Moses are certainly out too!!

    I just said the part about spreading the truth of Mormonism because the things that Missionaries say when they come our doors are very different from the things that I have learned from you guys. They act like the LDS church is a traditional Christian church……just with more books containing new revelations. But, the LDS church is FAR from Christian. Sure, you have Christ in your name……but if people could hear all the things ya’ll have shared on this blog……they would know that your religion is not based on Biblical TRUTH!

  105. shematwater said,

    July 16, 2009 at 11:36 am

    GEOFF

    I would love to just sit back and discuss the Gopsel with you. I haven’t heard it put quite in such beautiful terms before.

  106. catzgalore said,

    July 16, 2009 at 11:39 am

    DAMNING is not the same as DAMMING. That’s all. It’s a spelling thing. 🙂 I would make the letters bigger so you could see it better, but I can’t. There’s an N in “damning” and two m’s in “damming”. They sound the same but they aren’t. If you damn a river, it must be extra poluted, because it is condemned. If you dam a river, then it gets slowed or stopped. Different meanings.

    I’ve overlooked LOTS of misspellings, LOL. It isn’t that big of a deal. If it was, I would have brought it up before. Teasing is hard on blogs 😉 😉

    I would love to see Hitler saved! What a testimony to the Lord’s grace and mercy– that He would save such a sinner. I don’t know, only God does! Remember that salvation makes us a NEW CREATURE.. God can save whomever He wants. Jesus came to save SINNERS, remember?

    Oh, and YOU can’t throw in anyone, LOL

  107. osbornekristen said,

    July 16, 2009 at 11:58 am

    I looked up the JST version of Acts 13:22. Smith didn’t change it a bit. Seems that the Lord did not reveal anything “new” to him about David……still a “man after his own heart.”

    Please remember that without Jesus standing in your place…….you are filthy, unholy and sinful too!!! Even one little sin……a lie, an unclean thought…..seperates you from the Father without Jesus’s grace to stand in your place.

    Remember…….in the eyes of the Lord you “are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.” Isaiah 64:6

    Thankfully, with Christ we are a new creation!!!

  108. geoff456 said,

    July 16, 2009 at 2:10 pm

    KO and Catz,

    Because Jesus died to save me, it gives me the opportunity to REPENT!!!

    There IS a difference between sins….all sin is repugnant and separates us from God, but WE CAN repent and progress towards perfection each and every day!

    AFTER I repent, I am eligible for Grace! (hence, the “after all I can do” clause)

    Sorry, but I get SO TIRED of the “filthy rag” comment! It is intended for the UNREPENTANT! Not for members of the Church who understand the Gospel and the Plan of Salvation.

    How about telling me what YOU Hebrews 9:5 means? I love that scripture because it sums up the Gospel completely! In other words, we MUST OBEY to gain salvation. Can’t wait to see how you change the meaning!! 😉

    Incidentally, how come things can’t just mean what they say??? The Christians on this and other blogs always come up with a different twist.
    For example: the faith vs. works debate. I think James is perfectly clear but you “guys” come up with some convoluted meaning that faith SHOWS when we do WORKS. WE understand it to mean that we must be DOERS of the WORD and not hearers only…..just like the Savior commanded us to.

    CATZ,

    In YOUR OWN definition of the word “damnation” you used the word “damning”

    ~Geoff

  109. geoff456 said,

    July 16, 2009 at 2:11 pm

    Shem

    I would love to discuss the Gospel with you!

    Do I dare give you my email?….you know these ladies might get a hold of it!

    🙂

    ~Geoff

  110. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    July 16, 2009 at 4:02 pm

    Hey Shem & Geoff,

    The Gospel is exactly what I will be discussing in my next post!! I have been working on it the past few days, and hopefully will post it soon. What you know as the “Gospel” and what Christians know as the “Gospel” are two different things.

  111. catzgalore said,

    July 16, 2009 at 6:53 pm

    geoff,

    In YOUR OWN definition of the word “damnation” you used the word “damning”

    Of course. But I didn’t use DAMMING…

    D A M M I N G root word DAM

    D A M N I N G root word DAMN

    T W O D I F F E R E N T W O R D S. TWO DIFFERENT MEANINGS.

    YOUR definition of “damnation” is more like what would be called “dammation” but there’s no such word.

    Don’t be obtuse. 😉 You know exactly what I am talking about. You dance pretty well! You get what I’m saying, because I can’t believe you are that dense!

    Or maybe the dictionary is correct only as far as it is translated correctly?

    Enough about damnation.

    Looking forward to Ldswoman’s post!

  112. catzgalore said,

    July 16, 2009 at 6:56 pm

    Sorry, Mom (latterdaysaintwoman), you came home and the children were arguing again. 😉

  113. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    July 16, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    Catz,

    That, was adorable!

  114. shematwater said,

    July 17, 2009 at 11:53 am

    GEOFF

    Hebrews 9: 5 says “And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.”

    Not exactly the summary of the Gospel you were speaking of. I think you got the wrong reference.

    I will agree with you on the taking the words for what they say part. My favorite example is that when God is called our Father it is just a handy comparrison for or puny, limited mental capacity, instead of just simply being our Father.

    Oh, and I was wondering if you would agree with me on this particular reference from Christ himself.
    In Matthew 7: 21-23 it says
    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    To me it seems fairly plain that these men whom Christ is speaking of are relying on their faith to get them to heaven. They call on his name (Lord Lord), and it is because of their faith in him (In his name) that they did all these things. Faith really seam to be their support for expecting heaven, and yet Christ says that he never knew them, and they work iniquity.

    I ask this because I have had a few people site this reference saying they were relying on their works, I want to know if I am the only one seeing it differently.

    (It does cause a little worry, the thought of giving these woman your e-mail. So, why don’t I give you mine.)

  115. osbornekristen said,

    July 17, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    I think Geoff got the numbers crossed and was actually talking about Heb. 5:9. —-which I will post about later ( I am trying to clean the house while the kiddos are at the grandparents 😉

    And, guys……we aren’t interested in emailing you. So no worries. I barely have time to shower…much less waste time harassing you via e-mail! I promise not to send you a bunch of forwards or junk mail…….unless you get REALLY outta line 🙂

  116. catzgalore said,

    July 17, 2009 at 10:57 pm

    I’ll send you a quilt shop newsletter or a church newsletter if you want, LOL That’s pretty scary. 🙂

  117. catzgalore said,

    July 18, 2009 at 8:36 am

    “To me it seems fairly plain that these men whom Christ is speaking of are relying on their faith to get them to heaven. They call on his name (Lord Lord), and it is because of their faith in him (In his name) that they did all these things. Faith really seam to be their support for expecting heaven, and yet Christ says that he never knew them, and they work iniquity.”

    This is how I see it. They are saying, “look what I’ve done, I’ve done all these things in your name!” The unspoken here is, look how good I am!

    But our attitude has to be, Lord, look how good YOU are! The emphasis is not on ME it is on GOD and HIS mercy! We do our best to please the Lord, and we are rewarded, however, that doesn’t really matter! In the end, why do we want to be with Him? To glorify ourselves, or to glorify HIM? The focus of our lives is not to dream about what the reward is (to produce spirit children, to get to the highest heaven, climb the ladder all the way to the top, be with our family forever– whenever the focus is on US!!!) but the fact that we will have the opportunity to glorify THE LORD without the baggage of sin and this mortal body. To me that’s a pretty good reward, to not sin any more. Can you imagine that? To be able to serve the Lord and to worship the Lord “correctly” because we will fully understand! We get so weary in this life because we lose sight of the goal. We start focusing on ourselves and what we can do.
    But it’s like that song

    Turn your eyes upon Jesus
    Look full in His wonderful face
    And the things of earth will grow strangely dim
    in the light of His glory and grace.

    We don’t want the glory, we want HIM to have the glory. When we go to see the Lord we will say, Lord whatever good I did in life is because of YOU!! I am only able to do right because of Jesus! It is only God’s redeeming Grace that will allow me into His presence. It is only the shed blood of Jesus that “gets me to Heaven”… I know you can’t understand. It seems kind of like a cop-out to you. It doesn’t make sense. But it isn’t about US… it is about HIM!!!
    Are we working for our own exaltation, or for God’s exaltation? Is the purpose of my life to “get to heaven”? NO!!! It is to glorify the Lord in all I do. It is to love Him and others the best I can. What He does with me is totally up to Him. He can pay me or not. I would still want to love in His name even if I got no reward at all.

  118. osbornekristen said,

    July 18, 2009 at 1:29 pm

    Of course, I agree with Catz on Matt 7:21-31.

    It is more than obvious that Jesus is referencing the Pharisees and teachers of the law in these verses…who were totally caught up in doing works and following the law because they were positive that doing so was the only way to gain eternal life. They spent their whole lives believing that their righteousness would be enough. The Pharisees REALLY, TRULY thought that they were doing all of the right things to be holy enough for salvation. By having Jesus crucified, they thought they were serving God by getting rid of this great imposter who claimed godhood! They thought they were right on target with their good works! Later, Paul did not seek out, jail and murder Christians because he was just evil……..he REALLY thought that he was serving God by getting rid of these folks who were teaching the Jews about this so-called Messiah and His grace.

    Paul too thought GRACE wasn’t enough and that the early Christians were lawless and going against the commandments by teaching about FAITH!

    However, after his conversion…..Paul spent the rest of his life spreading the TRUTH of the Gospel……..that NOTHING but the saving grace of Jesus can give one eternal life. He was one of the people Jesus was teaching about when he said some would say, “Lord, Lord” but not be let in….because they did not BELIEVE that He was the only way!

    This brings me to anwer Geoff’s question about Heb. 5:9 “And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him”.

    What did Jesus ask his followers to do in the Gospels?…..He said over and over……BELIEVE! Believe in ME! Believe that I am in the Father and HE is in Me! Believe, Believe, Believe! Notice that it does not say in Heb. 5:9–obey the law or obey the commandments. It says “obey him”……..and His message was one of Faith! Let’s look at what he taught:

    John 6:35 “And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.
    36But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
    37All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
    38For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
    40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 5:24
    “Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”

    Notice when Jesus is on the cross that the “righteous” teachers of the law do NOT believe. They do NOT obey the words of Jesus. They mock him and say that they will believe only if he comes down from the cross!

    Matthew 27:41In the same way the chief priests, the teachers of the law and the elders mocked him. 42″He saved others,” they said, “but he can’t save himself! He’s the King of Israel! Let him come down now from the cross, and we will BELIEVE in him. 43He trusts in God. Let God rescue him now if he wants him, for he said, ‘I am the Son of God.’ ”

    These are the people being spoken of in Matt. 7:21-23. These are the folks who think that they are shoe-ins for Heaven because they are so good! They see killing Jesus, a blasphemer, to be a good work! But, they have missed it all together. They have tried to obey the Law to a T but haven’t listened and obeyed the words of Jesus.

    Eternal Salvation IS for those who obey Jesus. Those who BELIEVE that what he claimed was true.

    “16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16

    Does that answer your question?

    PS–Geoff asked how come things just can’t mean what they say? Well, I think in these verses…….Jesus means what He says and says what he means!

  119. geoff456 said,

    July 18, 2009 at 2:29 pm

    Shem,

    You are right….i goofed on the reference. I was talking about Hebrews 5:9.

    and ladies, the comment was totally tongue in cheek. I am NOT afraid of you in the least :).

    ~Geoff

  120. catzgalore said,

    July 18, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    Geoff, we know that. 🙂
    maybe you should be….. LOL

  121. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    July 18, 2009 at 7:20 pm

    KO,

    You wrote: “Paul too thought GRACE wasn’t enough and that the early Christians were lawless and going against the commandments by teaching about FAITH! However, after his conversion…..Paul spent the rest of his life spreading the TRUTH of the Gospel……..that NOTHING but the saving grace of Jesus can give one eternal life.

    Please understand that Mormonism has a different definition for the word “grace” than the Bible and Christianity has.

    From the LDS “Bible” Dictionary for the word Grace, it says: “The main idea of the word is divine means of help or strength, given through the bounteous mercy and love of Jesus Christ.

    According to Christianity, Grace means “Gods undeserved love“. According to Mormonism it means the help that God gives you to do all the works that He requires of you; and, you have to qualify for this “grace” through your obedience. In Mormonism, grace is not God’s undeserved love that grants you eternal life through faith; instead, grace is conditional help–dependent upon your obedience.

    Same vocabulary, but a different dictionary.

  122. shematwater said,

    July 20, 2009 at 12:59 pm

    First, in asking about Matthew, I directing this to Geoff because I already know what the rest of you believe, and I wondered which interpretation Geoff agreed with.

    As to your interpretation, while I understand it, I still say the emphasis is on faith, as I said. First, they called on his name, indicating that it was their faith holding them up. Second, all the works they do they specificly mention were done because of their faith.
    When I read this passage, in order for your interpretation to truly work with all that is said, I must ignore the beginning when Christ says “not everyone who cries Lord, Lord.”

    As to this referencing the Pharisees, I again disagree, for the simple reason that it is preceeded by a warning of false prophets who enter the Fold. It seems clear that this entire chapter is speaking about the members of the church (which ever one you believe in) and that is it. After all, the pharisees will never claim to have done any works in the name of Christ.

    As to his continue reference to faith, why not take a look at his continual reference to works. Let us start with Matthew seven. The chapter ends with the parable of the wiseman and the foolish man. The wise man is he that both heareth and DOETH, while the foolish man is he who hears but DOES NOT DO. Seems like a fairly clear reference to works.

    While we are on the subject of Parables, let us examine Matthew 25, the parable of the ten virgins, of the talents, and of the sheep and goats. I will assume we are all familiar with these, so I will go right into an interpretation.

    First, the ten virgins: All of them believed, as is indicated by the fact that they were waiting for the groom (or Christ) and expected to be part of the supper. However, only five were prepared. If all believed then what is the oil that makes us prepared but our works. They got the oil they needed, they did the work.
    Second, the Talents: It is again obvious that all three believed, as all waited for the Lord’s return and expected a reward. However, two went into the market (the world) and did that which would increase what they had (they worked). The third did not. The two who had the evidence of their works were rewarded, while the one who did no work was cast out.
    Third, the Sheep and Goats: Why are the sheep accepted and the Goats rejected. There is given a nice list of works that the sheep did but the goats did not do. It is again abvious that the goats had faith as they were there, and when they were casted out they didn’t understand why.

    So, here are three more examples of Christ teaching the need for works.

    Now, looking at the rest of the New Testiment:

    Philipians 2: 12 “Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.”

    Then there is the ever popular James 2 in which Faith without works is dead.

    Of course there are others, but this is good.

    GEOFF

    my e-mail is simple my username from this site at yahoo.


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