It’s the Father’s Will to Save Believers!

Yesterday I received this Family Gem from

“Family Prayer Should Be Practiced with Faith and Trust: The practice of Church members is to kneel in family prayer each morning and evening, plus having daily personal prayers and blessings on our food. President Monson said, ‘As we offer unto the Lord our family and our personal prayers, let us do so with faith and trust in Him.’ And so, in praying for temporal and spiritual blessings, we should all plead, as did Jesus in the Lord’s Prayer, ‘Thy will be done.’ ” Russell M. Nelson, “Lessons from the Lord’s Prayers,” Ensign, May 2009, 48

While family prayer was the intended focus of this Gem, my interest turned to the words of Christ’s prayer “Thy will be done.” Elder Nelson tells us that when we ask Heavenly Father for spiritual blessings, we should plead that HIS will be done. I pray this prayer for you every day! That you will place your trust in God’s will. There are so many things that He desires for you, but the most important is His will to give you everlasting life. It is the Father’s will to give everlasting life to those who believe in Jesus:

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.” (John 6:40)

That is the Father’s will!! God chose to save mankind through belief—not works; and not even by adding works to your faith. Scripture testifies that it is “Not of works, lest any man should boast.” (Ephesians 2:8-9) But this message is foolishness to the world. All one has to do is look at all man-made religions. They claim that something must be done by you before you can go to heaven or live on in some kind of heaven-like afterlife. Only Christianity declares that God has done everything necessary for you to live eternally with Him. These words are foolishness to the wisdom of man:

“For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.”

To the world it is foolishness to “save them that believe”! But God has made foolish the wisdom of this world. He did so on a Cross over 2000 years ago. On the night Jesus died He “fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, it if be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as though wilt.” Despising the shame that the Cross would bring Him, Jesus chose to do the Father’s will. As much as the Father loved His Son, He knew it was not possible for man to be forgiven any other way. Because of His great love for us, the Father’s will was to punish His Son in our place!

I used to think it was foolishness to “save them that believe”. Whenever someone told me they didn’t have to do any works to be saved, I thought that meant they didn’t want to do any works for God. What I didn’t understand until I experienced it; was the depth of love and gratitude I would feel towards my Savior when I believed in Him. It was HIS blood that bought the forgiveness of my sins. The very moment I believed I gave my life and my love to Jesus! Every breath I take is for Him!

It is the Father’s will to spend eternity with those who simply place their “faith and trust in Him”. It takes faith to trust that what Jesus did for you was sufficient. Do you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the very Son of God? It was He who revealed these words, just a few passages after He proclaimed to us what the will of the Father is:

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.” (John 6:47)


  1. geoff456 said,

    August 18, 2009 at 7:44 am


    you say someone must HAVE faith.

    I understand the Bible and the other scriptures to teach that we must BE FAITHFUL.

    slight difference that makes an ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE.

    Being FAITHFUL includes DOING all that we are asked to do. It includes “works” and baptism and keeping covenants.


  2. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    August 18, 2009 at 3:22 pm


    Are you finally beginning to understand? If so, praise the Lord!!!

    You wrote: “you say someone must HAVE faith. I understand the Bible and the other scriptures to teach that we must BE FAITHFUL. slight difference that makes an ENORMOUS DIFFERENCE. Being FAITHFUL includes DOING all that we are asked to do. It includes “works” and baptism and keeping covenants.

    God does command us to be faithful and without faith, no one can be faithful!!! Hebrews 11:6 claims that without faith, it is impossible to please God:

    But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

    And, those who have faith, are faithful. They spend their entire lives pleasing God. He is the very center of their lives. They can’t help it. James tells us this truth in chapter two. If someone has a living faith, they will do works.

    But, for someone who doesn’t have faith it doesn’t matter how many works they do. They can’t please God, even if they think they are doing works that will ensure that God is pleased with them:

    Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Mt 7:22-23)

    It “pleased” God to save believers. All true believers live to please their God who has already saved them!! They are alive spiritually and their “living” faith produces fruit. They will live their lives “doing all that we are asked to do” If they don’t do this, then they don’t truly have a living active faith. “For as the body without the spirite is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

    As you said, “slight difference that makes an enormous difference.”

  3. geoff456 said,

    August 18, 2009 at 7:11 pm

    Don’t get your hopes up. 🙂
    I still maintain that living a faithful life is a REQUIREMENT for grace. Grace is needed for Salvation.
    Alas the gap between us is still as wide as ever!


  4. rblandjr said,

    August 19, 2009 at 8:51 pm


    The word “grace” is a beautifully descriptive word. In fact our english word doesn’t even do justice to the actual greek word that the Apostle Paul used in Eph 2 and many other places.

    Dr. Kenneth Wuest states in his Word Studies in the greek NT, Pgs.22-24 concerning the greek word “charis” and its meaning.

    “…what took place at Calvary. All the human race could expect in view of its sin, was the righteous wrath of a holy God, that and eternal banishment from His glorious presence.But instead, that holy God stepped down from His judgment seat and took upon Himself at Calvary’s Cross, the guilt and penalty of human sin, thus satisfying His justice and making possible the bestowal of His mercy. And this he did, not for those who were His friends, but His bitter enemies, unlovely creatures saturated with sin.

    Charis in the classical greek referred to a favor conferred freely, with no expectation of return, and finding its only motive in the bounty and free-heartedness of the giver.This favor was always done to a FRIEND, never to an ENEMY.

    Right here charis leaps forward an infinite distance, for the Lord Jesus died for His enemies(Rom 5:8-10), a thing unheard of in the human race. The word charis comes to its highest and most exalted content of meaning in the NT. It refers to God’s offer of salvation with all that that implies, which salvation was procured at Calvary’s Cross with all the personal sacrifice which that included, offered to one who is His bitter enemy, and who is not only undeserving of that salvation but deserves fitting punishment for his sins, offered without any expectation of return, but given out of the bounty and free heartedness of the giver.


    (ROM. 4:4,5; 11:6).

    BUT PAUL IS VERY CAREFUL TO MAKE PLAIN THAT GOOD WORKS NATURALLY ISSUE FROM AND ARE REQUIRED BY GRACE.(Not as the means of salvation but as the result of this grace.)


    What a beautiful word, “GRACE”, which God has given to all.
    But when man corrupts this word by saying you must work to obtain, and keep this salvation. God never intended it to be so.

    Paul says that where sin abounded GRACE did much more abound.

    Here is Wuest translation of that verse from the greek.


    Thus , salvation is a gift, to be received by the open hand of faith, not something to be earned. Dear reader, if you have been depending in the least upon any personal merit, will you not now cast aside all this, and accept the free grace of god by faith in Jesus Christ as your personal Saviour, the One who died on the Cross for you.”
    His point is that Gods grace has superabounded to overcome sin

  5. shematwater said,

    August 21, 2009 at 10:38 am

    I don’t think that many people really understand the LDS doctrine concerning grace, faith, and works. It is wrongly assumed that we believe a man can be saved through works alone, or through works and grace without faith. This is rediculous.
    It is also wrongly assumed that we believe that grace has no part in our lives until we earn it through out works. Again, this is a rediculous idea, one that I refuted at length in a previous thread.

    First, all good things come from the grace of God. Thus, as salvation is obviously a good thing, it comes only through the grace of God.
    Second, there is no possible way that man can do enough to earn salvation through his own works. It is impossible as the mortal body is far to powerful for our spirits to overcome.
    Third, Eternal Life also comes through grace, but this gift we must earn.

    To clarify things more fully for those who don’t have an understanding of LDS doctrine.
    To gain eternal life we must first-Know what is right and what is wrong, and second-choose that which is right.
    The Grace of God has given us the knowledge we require, and now we must make the choice. Since we do not have the power in ourselves to do what is right the Grace of God is agian in our lives giving us the capability of fulfilliong all righteousness. This grace is given only to those of faith, as only those who believe Christ capable of saving them (and that they are in need of salvation) will choose to act as he has directed. Thus, without faith our works do us no good for without faith we do not have the grace of God giving us the strength to do all good.
    Once we have the knowledge, have made the choice through faith, and have received his grace, then we must acted on this gift of Grace, do all we can to stand then his grace will grant us eternal life.

    Grace is a free gift to all in that it gives us the knowledge we need to gain salvation. It is also free in that it garuantees us all a place in the Kingdom of the Father. It is free to all who have faith to the extent of enabling us to do that which is necessary to gain eternal life. However, Eternal Life is not free.

    Having said this, I do believe the only real differnce between the LDS doctrine and the rest of Christianity is that we believe that through the grace of God we can abandon all sin and cast from us all ungodliness. We do not believe that God will save us in our sins, but that he will save us from our sins. This means that he has prepared the way, and has given us the power that we may overcome all things. We can truly become sinless through his grace. Those who enter exaltation will not be sinners who Christ favored. they will be men and women who are perfect, even as God is perfect, never sinning, never having the desire to sin anymore. To enter exaltation in any other way would be a worse torment than to be cast into outer darkness with the devils.

  6. catzgalore said,

    August 21, 2009 at 1:47 pm

    When we say that Christ saves us in our sins, it means that He saved us totally and it isn’t anything that we have done to earn that gift.

    If He has indeed given you the power to overcome all things and become sinless, then why aren’t you sinless?

    Christianity says that we can only be with God if we are sinless. And the only way we can be sinless is to have our sins covered by the sacrifice (blood) of Jesus.

    You said **my comments inserted**
    To gain eternal life we must first-Know what is right and what is wrong, and second-choose that which is right. **my comment: to gain eternal life we must first accept the free gift of grace that has been offered. Our choosing what is right is also a gift that is given**
    The Grace of God has given us the knowledge we require, and now we must make the choice. **instead of last sentence: Now that we see our sin and our need for a Savior, we must repent of our sins, and depend on the Holy Spirit to guide us. Even that repentance is NOT what saves us; it is a result of that salvation. **
    Since we do not have the power in ourselves to do what is right the Grace of God is again in our lives giving us the capability of fulfilling all righteousness. **Even as believers, we still sin even though we wish it were otherwise…And yet, in God’s eyes, we ARE perfect- because He is looking through the filter of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, who has shed His blood for us. **
    This grace is given only to those of faith, as only those who believe Christ capable of saving them (and that they are in need of salvation) will choose **cross out “choose”, add “be able”** to act as he has directed.
    Thus, without faith our works do us no good for without faith we do not have the grace of God giving us the strength to do all **cross out “all” and add “any” ** good.
    Once we have **been given** the knowledge, have made the choice through faith, and have received his grace *salvation is at this point**, then we must act on this gift of Grace, do all we can to stand **end here** then his grace will grant us eternal life.

    **Keep in mind, Geoff, that not all Christians believe exactly the same things. I may believe a bit differently than latterdaysaintwoman or kristen, or onlyjesus… but we do agree that it is Jesus’ sacrifice that frees us, that saves us, and ONLY His sacrifice, not anything we do ourselves.**

    Grace is a free gift to **those that believe, cross out rest of sentence**all in that it gives us the knowledge we need to gain salvation. It is also free in that it guarantees us all a place in the Kingdom of the Father. It is free to all who have faith**end sentence here** to the extent of enabling us to do that which is necessary to gain eternal life. **cross out next sentence**However, Eternal Life is not free.

    Having said this, I do believe the only real differnce between the LDS doctrine and the rest of Christianity is that we believe that through the grace of God we can abandon all sin and cast from us all ungodliness.**I do not believe that we will be able to abandon all sin in this life. ** We **cross out “do not” do not believe that God will save us in our sins,**while we were yet sinners, Christ died!!** but that he will save us from our sins. This means that he has prepared the way, and has given us the power that we may overcome all things. We can truly become sinless through his grace **if that is possible, then tell me about those truly sinless ones in your church? I don’t personally know anyone totally sinless… and if someone is boasting about being sinless, well no further comment**.
    Those who enter exaltation will **cross out “not” not be sinners who Christ favored. they will be men and women who are perfect, even as God is perfect, never sinning, never having the desire to sin anymore.**we will then be perfect, but not because we attained perfection, but because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ**
    To enter exaltation in any other way would be a worse torment than to be cast into outer darkness with the devils.**to enter Heaven totally on the merits of our Savior will be a pleasure to me, an unbeliveable gift!!!**

    Hope that helps clarify the differences. I am not really good at this, Shem, but hope it helps.

  7. osbornekristen said,

    August 21, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Just some thoughts on what you said:
    You said, “Third, Eternal Life also comes through grace, but this gift we must earn.

    This is a VERY unbiblical statement……seriously.

    Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

    Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

    Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

    Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

    Ephesians 3:8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ

    Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

    WE DO NOT EARN GRACE! If so, Shem, how do we do it? What is “Good Enough” for God? How do you know that you yourself are righteous enough to have earned grace? I would appreciate an answer to this one. Also, where does the Bible speak of “earning grace?

    You also said, “This grace is given only to those of faith, as only those who believe Christ capable of saving them.

    Yes, I agree that the Bible teaches that one MUST believe and accept that Christ is capable of saving them! However, I do not believe that you, yourself, believe this! You have said over and over that it there is more……..we must “earn grace.” Basically, that Christ is “capableto save “after all we can do.” The Bible says that grace is a completed work….acceptance of Christ’s blood alone is capable!

    Adding requirements to Christ’s finished work on the cross is not believing that Christ is capable! You have said over and over that WE are capable of perfection. This is taking the sole victory away from Jesus and making Him just one of the members of the team. Basically, I do my part and Jesus will do his and we will come out on top. NOT TRUE!! Jesus DID IT ALL!!!!!!!!!!! GAME OVER!! The game was won 2000 years ago! It is because of this victory that we serve Him, praise Him, live for Him, adore Him! Not because if we don’t do our part we will lose………the game has already been WON!!

    Shem, you said “It is also free in that it guarantees us all a place in the Kingdom of the Father.

    I am confused here. Correct me if I’m wrong, but don’t you have to make it to the Celestial Kingdom to live with the Father? LDS don’t believe that grace gets you into the Celestial Kingdom free……right? That takes works, priesthood, ceremonies, etc. So, really LDS don’t believe that grace does much of anything to guarantee living with the Father? In fact, you aren’t sure yourself if you’ll live with the Father are you…..doesn’t that depend on if you are able to live a “perfect life?

    Again, Shem said, “Those who enter exaltation will not be sinners who Christ favored. they will be men and women who are perfect, even as God is perfect, never sinning, never having the desire to sin anymore.

    Are you meaning that once they get to Heaven and are given new bodies? Or are you meaning that they have been perfect here on earth and because of this are given exaltation?” If this is so, NAME me some folks who you believe have been perfect and have made it to exaltation? I could quote lots of scripture that rejects this idea…….but you have heard it all before……

  8. shematwater said,

    August 22, 2009 at 10:21 am

    All that I intended was to show the actual doctrines of the LDS church concerning these things. Instead of actually trying to understand what i have said you have launched into a debate to try to show what we believe is false.


    The changes you made to what I said only illustrate my point. The doctrine you teach does not encourge righteous living, and in fact gives free lisense to do wickedly. By your own words works has no part in salvation, and so the vilest of sinners can still receive of thesame reward as the humblest and most righteous. As long as one believes one is free to do anything they desire and grace will still save them. This is the logic of what you teach, and though you may not believe it, you cannot deny it.


    I am not going to comment on the references you gave as it would only start a pointless and endless debate that can do neither of us any good. However, I will comment on what you said about my last post.

    First, Grace is not earned. It is freely given to all men that they may know good from evil. It is freely given to all who believe that they may have the strength to endure. By acting on this grace that has been given to us we may earn Eternal Life, which is very different from grace.

    You said : I agree that the Bible teaches that one MUST believe and accept that Christ is capable of saving them! However, I do not believe that you, yourself, believe this!
    Did you not read what I said, or are you just not believing that I mean what I say. Christ is capable of Saving us, and is the only one who can. What I believe is that he will not save us until after all we can do, not that he can’t. The reason I believe he will not is not because he is vengeful, but because he is merciful. As I said, for a sinner to be in the presence on the Father would be a greater torment than for him to be cast into outer darkness. The grace of Christ and the Mercy of God are such that they will place us where we will receive the least torment. For God is light, and nothing of darkness can be will him.

    As to garunteeing a place in the Kingdom, when did I ever say this was in the Celestial Kingdom. All the degrees of Glory are part of the Father’s Kingdom and all will serve him. Without the atonement none of us would even be admitted into the lowest level of teh lowest degree, but would be cast into outer darkness. Now, to be completely truthful, sons of perdition will still be cast out, but this is a small percentage.

    As to perfection, I have little time to answer, but simple I mean both of what you say, and will give details a little later.

  9. osbornekristen said,

    August 22, 2009 at 8:38 pm

    Do or do you not believe that one must be in the Celestial Kingdom to live with the Father? To any Christian, not spending eternity with God the Father himself is…. hell. So, the belief that all degrees of glory are “part of the Father’s Kingdom” just doesn’t fly in the Christian world. Without the Father….Heaven is not Heaven.

    You said “It is also free in that it guarantees us all a place in the Kingdom of the Father.” How can it be a Kingdom of the Father…..if the Father does not reside there? This makes no sense………. Another false teaching.

    You said yourself that grace must be EARNED… read your post! Grace by definition is “unmerited divine assistance given humans for their regeneration or sanctification.”

    Those who have accepted this unmerited gift will not “be sinners in the presence of the Father” because Jesus stands in their place. Can’t you see? We were once sinners………now we are sanctified! This sactification did not come by obeying the law……it happened when we first believed!! All of the obedience, working for Him and dying to our old sin nature comes after we are already redeemed!

    As to being perfect…….I still want a LIST of names of who you believe have accomplished perfection. Wait……..I know one…..Jesus!

  10. catzgalore said,

    August 22, 2009 at 11:09 pm

    I thought you were asking for someone to show you the differences. That must have been someone else in a different thread, I’m sorry!

    Faith is not equal to Logic. But you are welcome to say I am not logical, because, no I am not. And though it seems I would have the license to do wickedly, I do not, my love for the Lord will not allow it. I could not shame Him that way. If someone truly is a believer, they feel the same way. If they want to be vile and wicked, they do not truly believe.
    And the grace of God is AMAZING!!!
    You can’t get it until the Lord shows you the truth.

    At least it helped you to see the difference?

  11. shematwater said,

    August 24, 2009 at 11:35 am


    Tell me how the all England can be the Kingdom of the King when he only lives in London. Or how all the Roman Empire was under the dominion of the Emporer when he lived in Rome. Name a kingdom that has ever existed where all members of that Kingdom lived in the precence of the King.
    It is the Kingdom of the Father because he has dominion of it, and all who live in it are subject to him. This does not require that all be in his presense.

    I think you need to read my post again, for I never said grace is earned. I said that the gift of Eternal Life is earned, and that it comes through grace. It is not grace, but through grace. We must first have the grace of God before we can have Eternal Life, which grace is a free gift, and by acting on that gift we earn eternal life. This is what I said.

    A list of perfected beings, started at the beginning of the World:
    Adam, Eve, Seth, Enoch, Noah, Shem, Melchizedek, Abraham, Sarah, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Samuel, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Peter, James, John, possible Paul, Joseph Smith, Heber C. Kimbal, Brigham Young, and all the Presidents of the Church.

    Now, I cannot give more than this because I do not know more than this. However, I believe that all the great prophets (those of the Patriarchal line from Adam to Ephriam) were all perfected while in this life as well as all the great prophets who wrote in the Old and New Testiment. I would also include Rebbekah, Rachel, Leah, Zipporah, Esther, Ruth, Deborah, and other great woman of the time.
    Of these many may not have been perfected in this life, but they have been made perfect in the next and even now are gods sitting on thrones in heaven.


    I don’t recalled asking for the differences in this thread, or any other, except the differences within the LDS church from early days to now.
    As to Logic and Faith, I agree that Faith is not logic, but it must be based on something that is logical.
    I have faith in Christ because his atonement is logical. I have faith in God because his existance is logical. I have faith in the LDS church because the doctrine is logical.
    God is not a God of confusion, and any doctrine that fosters confusion is not of him. Thus what you teach concerning works cannot be of God because it fosters confusion. By your words works cannot have anything to do with salvation, thus they cannot condemn nor can they save. But, by you own words if you do not have the works you do not have faith, thus your works do condemn or save you. The confusion is so evident that the doctrine cannot come from God.
    In simple terms, as I have said before, you teach:
    Faith without works = Salvation and that Faith = Good Works. By simple logic this means that Good works without works = Salvation.

    Now, you still have your old standby, “How Great are the Misteries of God, for his ways are not our ways.” But this does nothing to clarify what you have said, thus leaving you in confusion. Thus you cannot have eternal life for you cannot know God, which Christ himself says is eternal life (John 17: 3).

  12. catzgalore said,

    August 24, 2009 at 12:54 pm

    I am not confused, dear Shem. I have said before, you cannot understand unless God Himself opens your ears, your eyes, your heart. Before that, you will not understand. You CANNOT understand! You don’t wish to understand, only refute what is said. When we all stand before the Lord all will be clear.

  13. shematwater said,

    August 24, 2009 at 1:18 pm


    The real problem is that I do understand. What I have said is exactly what you have said, and it is a contradiction in itself. God cannot contradict himself, and therefore this doctrine is false.

    I understand very well, and that is why I believe with all my heart the doctrine of the LDS church and reject all others, and God has blessed me for this and has increased my understanding.

  14. rblandjr said,

    August 29, 2009 at 12:31 pm


    I appreciate each of the comments. Some encourage and others concern my heart greatly.

    I am speaking as a sinner who trusted in Gods grace alone. You cannot redefine grace. I will take simply what God says about His grace.God made this covenant. He did all the work to fulfill this covenant.

    How can a dead person do anything. He or she is dead. We are spiritually dead in our trespasses and sin. Dead men or women don’t start breathing again on their own. God has to breathe life into them.

    Our sin has caused us to be dead spiritually, we are enemies of God.

    He came seeking us. He drew us. He alone lived a sinless life dying on the cross and becoming our sustitutionary atonement.

    Picture this, we are in a hole(sinful men and women), we are hopeless, condemned because of our sin. Christ comes down to earth to enter our world, to live a sinless life which shows that he alone is worthy to die for mankind in our place. He climbs down into the hole, crying out to us, “do you want help”. We can cry out for help and then he alone lifts us out, cleanses us and forgives us. He sets our feet upon THE ROCK (Himself), which is his finished work on the cross.

    You say that you have to climb up that ladder to earn grace.

    Do I let Him lift me up and carry me out which is all of him. That is grace.

    Or do I work for that to earn his grace. Which is a wage earned not grace.

    Grace cannot be earned only freely given by God and accepted by us.

    You see, I am so utterly consumed by this great God who sought me, died for me, rose for me that he would forgive me and adopt me into his family.
    I praise him for this, it doesn’t make me want to go out and live any old way. But to live to please him because of what he has done.

    Grace is so amazing.
    He alone is Worthy of our praise.


  15. catzgalore said,

    September 25, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    These verses just blessed me today. I thank the Lord for giving me the gift of faith!! I know that without Him my eyes would still be blind. I would still not know Him. Praise Jesus for His unspeakable Grace, Mercy, and LOVE!!!

    Romans 10
    1Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.

    2For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

    3For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

    4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

    5For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.

    6But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)

    7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

    8But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

    9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

    10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    11For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    12For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

  16. shematwater said,

    September 29, 2009 at 11:24 am


    I like the hole analogy. Just from what I have read in the Bible it seems more like Christ has lowered a ladder so that we can get out, and if we don’t climb we will remain down there.

    Much like that old joke of the man cought in the flood. A row boat comes by and tells him to get in. “No, no.” says the man. “I have prayed and God will save me.” Later motor boat came by asking him to get in, to which he gave the same response. He gave the same response to the Helecopter that lowered a ladder to him. In the end he drowned, and when he found himself facing God he asked “Why did I die? I had prayered and you said you waould save me.” To which God repliad, “I sent you two boats and a Helicopter, why didn’t you get in?”

    Speaking of the hole, God, in his grace and mercy, has lowered a ladder that we may escape the darkness of the pit, but if we do not climb we will never escape.

  17. catzgalore said,

    October 2, 2009 at 12:01 pm

    Any God-fearing man or woman would see the boat or helicopter as God’s means of saving him. I think that is a silly story… a person such as that is foolish, couldn’t really know God… Just my opinion. 🙂

    Jesus alone provides the bridge between God and man. He does not put a ladder down the hole and hope for the best. If it was your child, you would climb down the ladder, pick up your child, and climb the ladder with your child in your arms. That’s what God does for us. He does it all.

  18. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    October 2, 2009 at 8:12 pm


    Amen and Praise the Lord!

  19. osbornekristen said,

    October 2, 2009 at 8:49 pm

    Oh my goodness Catz! What a wonderful analogy! Awesome!!!

  20. shematwater said,

    October 8, 2009 at 10:32 am


    Question: What if your child was sickly? Let us say that your child was week, and the air at the top of the hole would kill them in their present condition. With a little exercise they can build their strength, making it possible for them to survive the air. Climbing the ladder would provide such excercise. In this case would you go down and carry them up, risking their death because you didn’t want to make them do the work?

    Another note: The ladder that Christ has lowered is firm, and he knows that anyone who exerts energy to climb it will make it out. Thus, for him to lower it and require us to climb is not hoping for the best.

    Now, just so you all know, if my son or daughter was string enough and well enoguh to climb the ladder, yes, I would make them climb. I might go down to be with them, and encourage them, but I would make them do the work. It is only for children unable to climb that I would carry them. Thus, all children who die under the age of accountability are carried out by Christ, but all those who live beyond this point must do the work required of them.

    The problem I have always had with this idea that Christ will do everything and all we have to do is wait for it is this: It does me no good. I do not wnat a God who is out for his own glory, but who is out for my wellfare. That is a God worthy of worship. And there is nothing better for my welfare than do do all the work I am capable of doing, and then gaining assistance with the rest.

  21. catzgalore said,

    October 8, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    We ARE sickly, Shem. We are unable to climb. We are not capable of climbing on our own. Only by God’s grace do we get to the top of the ladder. Yes, we work. We must work hard. But it is not to get to some heaven or something. We are already saved. We work to please our Master. We owe our Master everything.

    You are thinking, well if it is not REQUIRED, then why do it at all? Why “do works” if it not required of us? It IS required. I don’t know how to say it so you will understand. I am praying that God will give me the words…

    One analogy that God gives. He is the Potter, we are clay. The clay is malleable; what the clay does is simply put itself in the hands of the Potter. The clay doesn’t do ANYTHING to make itself into a pot; only the Potter can do that. We are God’s creation! HE is the one that is molding us, making us into what He desires. Does that involve work on our part? You bet. Our work is continually putting ourselves in His hands, doing as He asks. There’s a lot of work. But it isn’t for our salvation, it is for our perfecting. He has saved us, forgiven us, and now we work; not for our salvation, but because we want others to know His forgiveness; we want to be molded into what He wants; we want to serve Him; we Love Him and wish to do His bidding.

    We do far more than just waiting, Shem. We want to spend our time glorifying the Lord; serving in all kinds of ways. If I didn’t get any reward, I would still want to serve Him. Any reward I get I will lay at His feet!!

    It isn’t about ME; it’s about HIM…

  22. shematwater said,

    October 9, 2009 at 9:28 am


    I do understand what you are saying, and it scares me. You state right out that no matter what we do we are saved. If our works are not required for salvation then there is no true incentive to do them.

    All you can say is that because you love God you will do the work. What of those who do not love him, but still believe? What of those who love him, but love themselves more, and yet still believe? What you are teaching them is that it doesn’t matter, they are still saved. Now, they may not be able to give as good of worship in heaven, but they will still be there, and that is all they care about.

    When you outline what you believe it seems obvious that you only consider how it effects you, and how you react to it, seeming to assume that all people will have the same reaction. This is the problem with the doctrine. Many people do simply sit back and wait, because they do believe the same as you do.

    What is also obvious is that you really do not understand the doctrine of works. You assume that this implies an emphasis on men and our ability to earn salvation. This idea is shown in such statements as “it isn’t about me; its about him.” The thing is, even with this doctrine it is all about Christ. Christ is the one who gives us the knowledge of what to do, and the power to do it, and then blesses us for so doing. All the glory goes to him, for without him we could do nothing.

    We read in Mosiah 2: 23-24 “And now, in the first place, he hath created you, and granted unto you your lives, for which ye are indebted unto him. And secondly, he doth require that ye should do as he hath commanded you; for which if ye do, he doth immediately bless you; and therefore he hath paid you. And ye are still indebted unto him, and are, and will be, forever and ever; therefore, of what have ye to boast?
    It is all about Christ.

    Now, the idea of the potter’s clay is not used in the way you describe. When God talks of people being potter’s clay there are two way she uses it. First, when speaking of nations to illustrate his power to set them up and destroy them (Jeremiah 18: 4-10; Isaiah 41: 25; Daniel 2: 41; Romans 9: 21). In this way all nations are shaped and formed as he desires, for he works them as potter’s clay. the other use is in reference to the creation of our bodies (Isaiah 29: 16; 64: 8). He does not use this allusion in refernce to our spiritual lives.

    Let me ask you a question: Why did God create man? What was his purpose in doing so?

  23. catzgalore said,

    October 9, 2009 at 2:58 pm

    Your statement…”If our works are not required for salvation then there is no true incentive to do them.

    You really don’t think there is incentive for works if the reward isn’t what you think it is?? What I get out of it is inconsequential to my desire to serve Jesus…. if you love the Lord, then you will want to obey Him, no matter what’s in it for you. Your children love you without strings, do they not? Do they only love you for the reward they get? If they don’t get a reward for loving you, then they wouldn’t bother?

    I wasn’t thinking of the scriptures exactly when I thought that, I was thinking of an old hymn…

    Have Thine Own Way Lord

    Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
    Thou art the potter, I am the clay.
    Mold me and make me after thy will,
    While I am waiting, yielded and still.

    Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
    Search me and try me, Master today!
    Whiter than snow, Lord, wash me just now,
    As in thy presence humbly I bow.

    Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
    Wounded and weary, help me I pray!
    Power, all power, surely is thine!
    Touch me and heal me, Savior divine!

    Have thine own way, Lord! Have thine own way!
    Thou art the potter, I am the clay.
    Mold me and make me after thy will,
    While I am waiting, yielded and still.

    However, here’s a couple scriptures about potters and clay…

    Isaiah 64:8
    Yet, O LORD, you are our Father. We are the clay, you are the potter; we are all the work of your hand.

    2 Cor. 4:7
    But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.”

    Romans 9:20,21
    But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, `Why did you make me like this?'” Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?”

    God created man for His own purpose– I don’t understand all the reasons, but primarily for us to glorify Him! I will understand better when I see Him face to face. Right now, I desire to serve Him because He loves me!! His love is my reward, not getting to be with my family or to be one of however many wives of some god or start my own planet…

    It seems that the difference from my point of view is that the Mormon faith glorifies the human— saying you will be a god, you will be powerful, you will be worshipped by the beings on the planet that you will rule. You will be able to have many wives and spiritual children if you do enough works here on earth. The Christian faith glorifies the Creator— acknowledging that All comes from Him, that we are His creation…that the work of salvation was done by JESUS HIMSELF and not ourselves…that’s a pretty big difference.

  24. shematwater said,

    October 12, 2009 at 12:28 pm


    Your understand is false, and truly limited.

    Yes, we believe all men have the potention to be glorified, but that is not our purpose. I do not follow God so that I can rule over my own planet. I follow him because I want to live with him. It just so happens that in order to live with him I have to be a god. Those who join the Church from a desire to be a god are the ones who will fall. Did you not read my post. We cannot glory in ourselves, for we ahve not the power to glorify ourselves. Even as gods we will give glory to the Father and his Son, for it is through them that we are made gods.
    As to people worshiping me, I really do not like discussing what eternity will be, as no man living on this Earth really knows what it will be. However, for your sake I will tell you what I truly believe, and you can tell me if it is designed to glorigy me or Christ.
    When I am Exalted as a god (speaking hopefully here, not stating a fact) I will be with my wife, and we will have an undless number of spirit children. I do believe we will create our own planet (or planets) on which they will experience mortallity. However, we will be part of the great counsel, of which Christ will be the Head. Thus, as the name (or Title) of God our Father is Eloheim, meaning Head of the Gods, so the name or Title of Christ in this counsel will also be Eloheim, or Head of the gods of his generation. And as such all my children will worship him as the Father or great Eloheim. They will be instructed of my existance, but I will not be the one they worship. Nor will my eldest son be their savior, for a savior must be the Eldest son of a savior, and thus it will be the Eldest son of Christ who will perform the atonement for my children.
    Having said this can you really think that what I am after is to glorify myself? I am perfectly willing to have all my children worship Christ as their Father, and his son as their savior. Would I be willing to do this if it was my glory I sought?

    As to why God created us, you gave the onyl answer anyone outside the LDS church can give. God created us so that we could worship him. Think what you want, but a god who creates sentiant, freewilled beings just to build up his own ego is not a god I want to worship. God created us out of love, not for himself, but for us. He wants us to become all that we can, and everything he does is for our progression. Because of this I can give him all my love, all my respect, all my worship, and I am willing to follow him anywhere.
    For me it is all about him. For him it is all about me. This is how a true parent will raise their children, and why I said I would not carry my children out of the pit if they could climb themselves. Because he is not seeking for us to glorify him. He is seeking to glorify us, and when they accept that help, and do what I instruct they are glorified, and because they are glorified I am glorified.

  25. catzgalore said,

    October 12, 2009 at 10:46 pm

    If your purpose from your point of view is not to be glorified, then what is your “reward”? This post confused me very much.

    You HAVE to be a god, but you do not DESIRE to be a god? If you DESIRE to be a god, then you are discarded. But if the goal is to be a god, then why are you punished for desiring what God has in store for you??

    If your god wants you to be a god, then should you not desire to be a god for his sake?

    You said….
    When I am Exalted as a god (speaking hopefully here, not stating a fact) I will be with my wife, and we will have an undless number of spirit children. I do believe we will create our own planet (or planets) on which they will experience mortallity

    How is that exalting our Heavenly Father? It’s making you just like him!! You will be a “heavenly father” on some other world!

    before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. (Isaiah 43:10)

    But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8)

  26. shematwater said,

    October 13, 2009 at 9:22 am


    I don’t understand how what I said could be confusing. My desire is not to be a god, but to live with God. This is what I strive for. If this goal was possible without becoming a god I would have no problem. But God has stated that for us to be with him in his full glory we must also be gods. Thus, my desire is not to be a god, but to be with my Father in Heaven. However, to gain this I must be a god, and I so I will strive to be a god. In this sense I do want to be a god, but not for the worship, but because it is the only way to live with my Father again.
    When I spoke of those wanting to be gods I spoke of those whose goal is godhood, and not living with their Father. The people I speak of don’t care about living with god, only in becoming a god. Their motivation is godhood, not returning to their Father. They seek to glorify themselves, while I seek to glorify him.
    You said it right when you said I want to be a god for his sake. It is those who want to be a god for their own sake that will fall.

    Now, how is this not exalting our Heavenly Father? Just like with our Earthly parents. I I want to honor my Earthly father I am not simply going to praise him, but I am going to study, work hard, and make myself a son he can be proud of. Then his honor will be increased, because he has the honor of an honorable son. God our Father’s glory is increased with every spirit child that is exalted. It is again increased with the children of his children who are glorifies.
    As it says in Proverbs 17:6 “Children’s children are the crown of old men; and the glory of children are their fathers.”
    My glory on Earth is my father on Earth, and my glory in Heaven is my Father in Heaven. However, the crown of my Earthly father are the children that I bare, and likewise, the crown of my Heavenly Father will be the children I bare him. The more of his children that are able to have an eternal increase, the greater will our Father in Heaven’s crown (or honor and glory).

    Now, as to your use of scripture, the Galatians quote doesn’t really help you, as everything taught as doctrine in the LDS church can be found in the words of the Apostles. As to the Isaiah one, I do believe I have already explained this, but let me do so again.
    You use only verse 10, but to get the full meaning let us look as this entire paragraph (8-13):
    “Bring forth the blind people that have eyes, and the deaf that have ears. Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, It is truth. Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have shewed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, that I am God. Yea, before the day was I am he; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand: I will work, and who shall let it? ”

    Now that we got the whole message let us first examime the purpose of it. God is giving the argument as to why Israel should follow him. Yes, in verse 10 he says there is no other God formed, but what is his wording in verse 11. He speaks to himself as the only savior. He is not ruling out the existance of other gods, only that he is the only one with power to save, or redeem, which is why we worship him as the only God.
    Hosea 13: 4 says it better: “Yet I am the Lord thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.”
    He is the only God we worship, for he is the only savior.
    More modern, you can also read in D&C 76: 1 “Hear, O ye heavens, and give ear, O earth, and rejoice ye inhabitants thereof, for the Lord is God, and beside him there is no Savior.”
    Thus, there is only one savior, and thus only one God we are to worship and be concerned with. As Paul says “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

    So, for God to make me a god is not contrary to the Bible, or the Gospel as taught by the ancient prophets or the Early apostles.

  27. catzgalore said,

    October 15, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Shem, do you know who God is? I do not claim to know God completely, not at all, we cannot. He is beyond our comprehension… one reason we worship Him is just that, He is ABOVE ALL!!! The ONLY God. Just start reading the references and asking God to show you HIMSELF… Just concentrate on HIM…. only HIM.

    This from a website that lists the names of God in scripture. It is not inclusive. You could find more. This is just a start….
    Read the scriptures and get a picture of GOD. Never mind what we will be doing in heaven, or what we have to do or don’t have to do. Concentrate on the FATHER…… only. I don’t mean you should do that forever, but start to just study that. Don’t listen to me, or anyone but the Word of God. Read anything you can about HIM…. not about church history, church teachings, Baptists, Methodists, Mormons… it doesn’t matter. All that matters is our Heavenly Father… and that God came in human form–Jesus to live and suffer and die to pay for our sins. Everything else pales in comparison to His glory and grace. Seek out the names of God and you will find yourself bowing at His feet in awe, appreciation, and wonder that the One who Creates is the One who Saves and the One who LOVES….

    ELOHIM……Genesis 1:1, Psalm 19:1
    meaning “God”, a reference to God’s power and might.
    ADONAI……Malachi 1:6
    meaning “Lord”, a reference to the Lordship of God.
    JEHOVAH–YAHWEH…..Genesis 2:4
    a reference to God’s divine salvation.
    meaning “The Lord thy sanctifier”
    JEHOVAH-ROHI……Psalm 23:1
    meaning “The Lord my shepherd”
    JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH…….Ezekiel 48:35
    meaning “The Lord who is present”
    JEHOVAH-RAPHA………Exodus 15:26
    meaning “The Lord our healer”
    JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU……Jeremiah 23:6
    meaning “The Lord our righteousness”
    JEHOVAH-JIREH………Genesis 22:13-14
    meaning “The Lord will provide”
    JEHOVAH-NISSI………Exodus 17:15
    meaning “The Lord our banner”
    JEHOVAH-SHALOM……..Judges 6:24
    meaning “The Lord is peace”
    JEHOVAH-SABBAOTH……Isaiah 6:1-3
    meaning “The Lord of Hosts”
    EL-ELYON…………..Genesis 14:17-20,Isaiah 14:13-14
    meaning “The most high God”
    EL-ROI…………….Genesis 16:13
    meaning “The strong one who sees”
    EL-SHADDAI…………Genesis 17:1,Psalm 91:1
    meaning “The God of the mountains or God Almighty”
    EL-OLAM……………Isaiah 40:28-31
    meaning “The everlasting God”

    If you begin to see the true nature of the Lord of Hosts, you will see that we could never be what God is. Only GOD can be GOD. We are puny in comparison. We are just a breath of the wind, a flower that quickly fades. God is ALL IN ALL…. That is Who I wish to honor. What my reward is doesn’t matter, it is all HIS.

  28. shematwater said,

    October 21, 2009 at 11:44 am


    You assume I have not read these verses, that I have not studied the nature of God the Father. It is a false assumption, for I have already done just this. I have done it for several years, and I continue to do it.
    I have considered what you believe concerning God, and it is lacking in logic. When I read the Bible I see exactly what I have described, and nothing else. I have read the entire Bible. I have done individualized studies seeking out particular doctrines and ideas. I have done all this, and still I remained convinced that the LDS church is the only church that holds the fulness of the Gospel and that I can be like my Father in Heaven if I am willing to do the work.

    Why don’t you contemplate the meaning of being Joint-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17) and what it means to be like God (1 John 3: 2), or being changed into his image of glory (2 Corinthians 3: 18), or to sit in his throne (Revelation 3: 21), or becoming a perfect man, unto the meassure of Christ (Ephesians 4: 13)?

  29. catzgalore said,

    October 21, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    Logical is not everything, Shem. It is not logical that Jesus fed the crowds, or healed the sick. It is not logical that the payment for our sins is DEATH; why does it matter? It isn’t logical that God loves us so much that He provided the Sacrifice for our sins. Why does God look at the ones He created who, when their are left to their own devices, choose the evil? Why does He love us? Illogical.
    Your god is one who was once a man as you. He progressed from man to god just as you will. Can a man such as you progress to the point as to be The Lord of All, the Creator of the Universe, omnipresent, omnipotent, without beginning, without end? That’s pretty illogical too.

  30. shematwater said,

    October 22, 2009 at 10:14 am


    Logic is everything. It was very logical for Christ to feed the crowds, for he loved them. It is very logical that the payment for sin is death, and true justice requires restitution, and for those things that cannot be restored your life is the best you can offer. It is very logical that God provided the redemtion for our sins, for he loves us.
    The only illogical thing you have in your list is the idea of God loving us when we are evil, but than I don’t agree with what you said. In truth, I think the great majority of people, when left to their own devices, would choose the good, trying as best they could to follow it. Since most do do their best it is very logical that God would help us out when we need it. Those who truly choose evil are the ones that God does not help. As for loving, he is our Father, and thus for him to love us is very logical.

    The rest of what you say shows that you have yet to even attempt to understand all that I have said. You keep trying to make my words and beliefs fit what think LDS doctrine and in so doing you never really understand.
    No, I cannot be Lord of All, for that is the right of the first born son, and thus goes to Christ. However, I can be a god, I can have all knowledge and power, and I can have spirit children born to me.
    Now, I think the biggest problem you have is that you take my belief that I can be a god and imprint this on what your concept of God is. I do not believe in God in the same way as you, and so to say I can become a god means something very different than it would for you. You really need to try and figure this one out.

    (I noticed you didn’t address the references I gave.)

  31. catzgalore said,

    October 22, 2009 at 3:10 pm

    Did you address the references I gave?

    I know you do not believe in the same GOD I believe in, which is the GOD of the Bible, the great I AM. The One who has always existed, who created all that is seen and is unseen.
    I see, Shem. I see that the god you see is not the God I serve. You are looking in a mirror facing a mirror, reflecting to eternity. The focus is YOU. YOU will be a god. YOU will have spirit children, and have all knowledge and all power. I do see that. You will not be the God of the universe. There is only ONE GOD.

    As for the references you gave, I am praying that the Lord would give me the words to say to you. And yet, it doesn’t matter what I say. If God doesn’t put His truth in your heart, and open your ears and your eyes, you will never hear, you will never see. So I am praying that the Lord of All, the Great I AM, will shake you to the core and show you His REAL power and glory. I say again, it isn’t about US…. it is about HIM.

  32. shematwater said,

    October 23, 2009 at 12:11 pm


    I did not address your references individually, but I will if you want me too. I did however address the concept of the references you were trying to put forth, and this you did not do.

    Now, you still do not understand anything, even though I explained it in the plainest of terms. You refuse to see, and there is little I can do about that. However, I will try to explain it one more time, and we will see if you catch on.

    My intent is to glorify my Father. This is what I want. I want to give them all the glory and honor I can give them. It is not about me, it is about my Father. I will do everything he tells me to give him this glory.
    Do I want to be a god? Yes. Why? Because in becoming a god I will be gving my Father the greatest glory I can give him.
    You see nothing, for the focus is not on me, and never will be. In this life it is on my Father, and in the next it will be on my eldest brother, Jesus.
    You cannot accept the idea that thinking anything good about men is just fine, that praising and raising men is what God wants to do. To you everything that involves man is descusting and evil, and so when anybody says that men are and can be good, and thus be like their Heavenly Father you assume that their desire is to suplant God, that all things are focused on them. This is not true, and until you can clear your mind of the false prejudice you will never understand the glories that await the truly faithful saints in the the eternal worlds.

  33. catzgalore said,

    October 23, 2009 at 11:02 pm

    You said:
    “Now, you still do not understand anything, even though I explained it in the plainest of terms. You refuse to see, and there is little I can do about that. However, I will try to explain it one more time, and we will see if you catch on.”

    I have never claimed to be a great biblical scholar. I struggle with a lot of things. But what I do not struggle with is the nature of God my Heavenly Father. Dear Shem, I catch on. Not the way that you hope I would catch on. I am getting a very clear picture that the God that you see is not the same God as the One I worship. Your god is one of many gods, while the God of the Bible is the Great I AM; ONE God. We cannot begin to think that the other one knows the truth when the very heart of the matter, the nature of God, is different. The 75% the same makes no difference at all when the 25% is the most important part.

    Mankind is by no means totally disgusting and evil. We are, however, not able to perfectly keep all of God’s commandments, and that is what is required. Jesus kept them all perfectly, and died as the Perfect Sacrifice, a Lamb without blemish. He is the only Sacrifice that would do. THOSE THAT BELIEVE are His children.

    Romans 8:17
    17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

    Notice it says “if” we are children. Go back a bit to verse 14:
    “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” We are adopted into God’s family ONLY through faith in Christ. Other passages that support this: John 1:12/Romans 9:6-9/Galatians 3:26/1 John 3:2/Ephesians 1:3-5.

    1 John 3:2
    2Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears,[a]we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

    Just because we are like God, doesn’t mean we will become gods. What we will be has not yet been made known!

    I love something I read… “Heirs to a kingdom become the King ONLY when the first King dies! God will never die and so we are always and always His children, enjoying all the benefits of being a child of the King. And, our dear Savior will share His glory with us, just as a victorious King shares the glory of His victory with His children. But never, in any way, will we receive glory because of ourselves. Everything is either done by Jesus, or done by God flowing through us. He alone deserves the glory, honor and praise.”

  34. shematwater said,

    October 26, 2009 at 12:30 pm

    I never said we did worship the same God. Since I worship the true Father in Heaven and you worship his creation (what I would call the Light of Christ) there is no way we worship the same thing.

    What you do not understand is that the belief that I can become a god in no way takes the glory from God, nor does it automatically mean my focus is on me and not him. This is what you fail to understand about what I believe, and since you do fail in this simple understand you will never come to realize the great blessings promised by God to the faithful.

    As to the idea of being Kings and all that you say, I have to agree that God will never die, and thus no one will ever take his place. However, as a son I can be made a duke in his kingdom (or a king in his empire) and thus rule is a very similar capacity. As I will still be part of the Royal Family, and be granted my own dominion, I can be a god, or a member of the ruling class in the royal family.

    As to what you say about John’s reference, if it is not speaking about becoming a god, what does it mean to belike him. You have not said what this means, only what it doesn’t mean. Can you give a positive instead a negative? For me, when I read this, it seems very clear that we will be gods, for we will be like him. No, we do not really know what this means, what we will be like, but we know that whatever he is like, that is what we will be like, or in other words we will be gods, whatever that really means.

    As to your references to God you gave earlier, I would say to notice that whem Jehovah is part of the name it identifies Lord, and not God, but Eloheim, or other words with El refer to God. To me this indicates two separate beings, one who is God Almighty and one who is Lord over the Earth. Thus we do not have the trinity, but two separate Gods each filling a different role, one leading (as a Father) and the other obeying (as a Son).
    Once this distinction is understood I have no argument with the meaning of any of these verses as they pertain to one or the other.

  35. catzgalore said,

    October 26, 2009 at 4:52 pm

    I worship the Creator…. I do not worship the created.
    Isaiah 45:18:
    “For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; …I am the Lord; and there is none else.”

  36. catzgalore said,

    October 27, 2009 at 3:57 pm

    Someone gave me this basic explanation of the Mormon faith…
    “Christ has promised that whatever we pay he will match in payment plus 50%. Thus, we need only pay $8 million, and he will match that with another $8 million plus another $4 million, thus our debt would be paid. However, if we slack off and pay only $5 million, he will also pay only $7.5 million, thus our debt will not be paid and we will be thrown into the laybor prisons (hell) to finish paying our debt. On the other side, if a person worked hard enough and managed to pay $10 million, Christ would also pay $15 million, thus the man has a little extra.
    Following this, a person who just pays enough so that Christ can finish paying the debt does not have the funds to get himself a mansion in the Father’s kingdom, and thus enters as a servant to a mansion (angel). However, a person who does all he can and pays the full $10 million on his own (maximum for $100K for 100 years), he has the extra $5 million for acquiring a mansion in which he will live, and be above the servants (thus be a god). Those who do not pay enough to allow Christ to cover the rest will spend time in the labor prisons (hell) until the debt is fully paid (working at minimum wage-$7.5/hr-that would take 500 years) at which time they will be released and enter the kingdom as city workers.

    While this does seem to trivialize the whole concept, it does a very decent job of explaining the basics of the LDS belief.”

    What do you think?

  37. shematwater said,

    October 28, 2009 at 12:24 pm


    First, I love the quote you give, as it does a great job of explaining the whole concept. It is by no means perfect, but still excellent. Of course, the fact that it was me who originally told this parable, and you have quoted me directly (not completely but directly) I would be rather stupid not to agree with it.
    I would point out though, in the first post I made with this parable I did not give a full explanation, and few post later in the thread I expanded on it, which finishes the whole explanation fleshing out the doctrine of the LDS church.

    As to you worshiping the created, I really only said this because I am very tired of people claiming the “Biblical Christ” when the LDS doctrine is just as obvious, if not more so, in the Bible as any other churches doctrine. As such, in a discussion of this nature such a claim is geared to shutting the oposition down, not allowing for good discussion.
    I will still say that I hold to the idea. Not of you personally, but Christians in general. They speak of God as a formless mass of energy that permeates all areas of existance. To me God is a very definite being, being a glorified man with a physical body, who can be in only one place at a time (which is why he has his angels do most of the work of ministring on earth. However, there is a created energy that eminates from God, which expands to fill allexistance, through which God communicates with and influences all things. Thus, when the LDS doctrine is compared to the rest of Christianity they seem to worshiping this energy (which we call the Light of Christ) and not the glorified man who created it.

  38. catzgalore said,

    October 28, 2009 at 3:49 pm

    So is this what you are saying: mormons worship a glorified man. A limited god. That man-god is limited, because he has a body, and cannot be everywhere at once. But he created an energy that is everywhere; but that energy is not him. He communicates by the means of that energy. You claim that Christians worship the energy, and not the Creator.

    So why do Mormons wish to be called Christians?? There is no comparison outside of claiming to know Jesus. Your concept of God is not the same, your concept of Jesus is not the same, your concept of Jesus’ sacrifice is not the same; your concept of God’s forgiveness is not the same, your concept of the Holy Spirit is not the same!! You are the same IN NAME ONLY! If you go by your beliefs, then Martin Luther, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, Billy Graham, and every other non-Mormon preacher, teacher, and believer is condemned to eternity without God. If you would ask ANY of them, NOTHING would be HEAVEN without our Lord and Savior!

    But if you follow what you say and god has a body, and is limited to communicating (telepathically?) with the “energy” not too many of you will really be in his presence! Just being on the same world is not being in his presence. Do you have to wait your turn? Do you get your turn based on how many works you have? If you are gods on other worlds, it isn’t like the reward is spending eternity of our precious Saviour; you only get his presence for a minute, and then go on to rule your world? Will your wife have you exclusively in heaven? At one time, it was taught that you have to have more than one wife or you won’t be exalted. You will be busy impregnating your wives to continuously produce spirit babies. So she, in reality, will be part of your harem! You will be part of that eternal progression from manhood to godhood!
    Where did that glorified man that you worship come from? If he was once a man that went through the mormon progression, where was he before that? Does he have a heavenly father too? Is this a progression that goes on to infinity before? Where does this progression begin? Will YOU have to go to that earth and sacrifice your life and suffer and die to save them or will some other “god” be assigned that task? If you will be the “Jesus” of that world, will you have yet another human wife (or wives, as you claim)?

    And your Jesus died to do away with death. He did not die to pay for our sins– he will only pay for PART of our sins, and only if we do enough to do our part. Otherwise, we will be working in hell for as long as it takes for us to pay off our part. If you are not mormon, you are condemned. Not exactly– we will be in “heaven” but not with God. Or in hell– trying to earn our way out.

    Is there anything I say that you believe is not true? I agree, it kind of makes it sound odd. Just like your description of “Christian” beliefs. But what have I said that is not what you believe?

    What part of this is LOGICAL? Most importantly, where do we learn this in Scripture? Where did Jesus say, I died for your sins, if you do enough to pay your share? Where did He say, my Father before me, and His Father before Him, etc….? Remember, I will not listen to the Book of Mormon as scripture. Only the Bible.

  39. osbornekristen said,

    October 28, 2009 at 10:44 pm

    John 4:24
    “God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”

    And yes, God is everywhere at once. David wrote, “Where can I go from your Spirit?” (Psalm 139:7). Obviously, this was written way before the Holy Spirit was given to us. So, David is referring to the God of the OT…..the same one we worship today!

    And, yes, you are correct…….we Christians do NOT worship a glorified man!!!
    We worship….the LORD who proclaims ” I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.” Isaiah 44:6…… “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

  40. shematwater said,

    October 29, 2009 at 11:01 am


    I am tired of this. Everything you put into your last post I have already answered, and most of it on this thread. Please use the intelligence that your heavenly Father gave you and go back and read it. Once you have read it, think about it, turn it over in your mind, consider all the possible implications and meanings, and then come back and actually give a well thought out response to it. When you show that you are actually trying to understand my words and the beliefs of the LDS church I will be happy to continue this discussion, but as long as your only intent is destroy and attack those words and beliefs I have no more patience.

    John 4: 23-26
    “Jesus said unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what; we know what we worship; and salvation is of the Jews. And the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship him. For unto such hath God promised his Spirit. And they who worship him, must worship in spirit and in truth.”
    While I could give references from the Bible that talk of God having a body, I figured I would just use the real wording as restored by Joseph Smith to show that this solitary reference is not sufficient to prove anything to the LDS.

    Psalms 139: 7
    This is a wonderful reference to the “Light of Christ” which is also known on occassion as “the Spirit of the Lord.” Through this energy God’s influence is everywhere, and no one can hide from it.

    The rest of it I have explained before, but it really seems that you don’t care about the LDS perspective, only complaining and attacking it.

  41. catzgalore said,

    October 29, 2009 at 6:23 pm

    This is a blog that was started by someone who God brought OUT of mormonism. God revealed the truth to Becki and gave her His Light. I am so thankful for that!

    The more I read on the lds site the more incredulous I am, and when I read what you write, the more I see that you may be unsure. The last few posts seem like they have been written by another, or at least you have consulted with another. There’s a different style, a different tone to the writing. It makes me think that maybe you (Shem) are beginning to hear what is being said. You aren’t sure any more, are you? You are beginning to doubt. You don’t know what to say any more.

    I pray for you often, that God would continue revealing truth to you. You too are here for a reason. Maybe God has a message here for you. Re read what you wrote– quoted in post 36– and see how awful that really is, to never really KNOW that God loves you, to never really KNOW if you have done the proper percentage of “good works” and not know until you are facing the Lord whether you “made it” into the celestial heaven or not.
    There is nothing you can do to make God love you more. Jesus gave everything to pay for ALL our sins (believers). His sacrifice did far more than just make it POSSIBLE for those that believe to be saved as long as they do their part. His salvation is FREE. He has PARDONED us!! I want you to know that assurance that your sins are REALLY forgiven. I don’t want you to spend your life trying hard to do all that you are “supposed to do” and think you are doing things “right”… I don’t want you to be one that sees the Lord and He says He never knew you.

    I have learned so much from you, Shem. I have gotten a better picture of what your church teaches. Thank you for that. But if you wish to spend time with people who want to listen to you, and accept what you say, you shouldn’t be posting on a blog that was started for the purpose of refuting what you believe. Just sayin. 😉

  42. osbornekristen said,

    October 29, 2009 at 7:59 pm


    Your last post truly proves that you believe what Smith says over what Christ himself says. Christ clearly tells her that God is a spirit. In love, I ask that you truly pray for guidance. You are so caught up in the teachings of men that you are unable to see the TRUTH. The bible warns us about this in numerous places. Smith changed verses of scripture that did not “fit” his teachings. Again, your church attemps to make sense of things that we, in our human state, cannot yet understand….but will when we see Christ face to face.

    The only way for you to see clearly is to study the WORD of God…….the Bible and compare it with the works of men of your church. I have done this. Trust me, I wanted to believe that the LDS teachings were okay and did not challenge and change biblical scripture. It would be a lot easier for me to know that my LDS friends and family are walking in truth. But, they are not. Your leaders have taken some truth and mixed it with false teachings and words created in their own minds… suit their own purposes. It will take the Holy Spirit for you to see this. I pray one day your eyes will be opened. Christ is knocking…….seek him in spirit and in truth!

    Psalm 139 is my favorite verse. It was read at our wedding and is monogrammed on my Bible cover. It is not speaking of just “the Light of Christ.” Christ had not even come yet. The psalmist is speaking of the one true God….his God…..the God of Abraham, Jacob, etc. The scripture goes onto praise God for making us in our mother’s womb….for always watching over us……for knowing all of our thoughts. This is not just “the light of Christ”, whatever that is supposed to mean anyway. He is speaking of our Holy God.

    Since you believe that the Father is completely seperate from the son……show me one verse in which the Father appears in human form except for in the form of Christ (who was God made flesh) or in the OT as the “Angel of the Lord” which was Christ.

    I just wish you could see the truth and stop trusting a man who was full of deception and is now facing the TRUTH.

  43. shematwater said,

    October 30, 2009 at 1:36 pm


    There is no one else writing but me, and the only one I am consulting is God. The previous post were of a different tone because in them I actually thought you wanted to understand, but now I know that you do not. I have no doubts concerning the LDS church, or God, or his prophets. I have speculations concerning eternity, but if I did not have some doubts concerning them I would be a fool for no man can know these things until he has entered them. But I know God, and I know this is his church, and I know that with his help I can be exalted as a god in heaven. Do I understand all that this means? No, and I do not expect too.

    I am here for a reason, and that is that I enjoy doing this. I am not here to convince anyone of the Truthfulness of the Gospel that was restored by Christ through Joseph Smith. My only desire is that you listen and understand, for the confusion that exists concerning this gospel is great. I do not want a comparrison between our faiths. I use it on occassion to illustrate a point, but not with the intent to attack your faith, but only to show the differences.
    I have no problem with people saying that we are wrong, but when they claim this based on false information, then I do feel the need to correct them, for with false information they can do themselves no good, and could seriously hurt others.
    My purpose is to answer questions regarding my faith, and explain them to those who want to understand them. However, when I do this and the person comes back with “how can you believe such base doctrine” I do tend to get annoyed. This is what you have done. I explained the doctrine of the church, and in your lost post all you did was to do your best attack and debase it. You did not speak as one trying to understand, but as one trying to injure, and I have to say it worked, which is why I responded in the way I did.
    As to what else you say, I do believe you can know. I know that if I died right now I would enter the Celestial Kingdom, for those things that are required for that I have done. I have not done what is required for exaltation, but I am working on it. We can know, and most of us do know. The honest believer can easily look at his life and say “this is where I stand and this is the kingdom I will inherit.”


    I believe the word of God over any man who ever lived. However, I do not believe the man-made translations of his word more than any man who ever lived. This is the key difference. The accusaitions mean nothing. I can just as easily claim that your simple belief that the Bible cannot have any mistakes in it is trusting men more than God. In truth, I do believe it is. But what good does that belief do either of us.
    As to comparing the Bible with the doctrines of the LDS church and the leaders, I have done this for the past 15 years, and have found no other church to come closer to that found in the Bible as these men have. I have yet to hear or read any doctrine put forth by the general authorities that I cannot find supported either directly or indirectly in the Bible. This is one reason I believe in this church and follow these leaders, because they have a better understanding of the Bible than anyone else.
    Now, I will admit that on occassions I have read a quote from the leaders that did not seem to fit. On these occassions I studied it out, pondered their words and the words of the Bible in my mind, comparing them. And every time, after careful study, my understand has been opened and expanded, and I have seen where their words apply and how they agree with the Bible. Or, I see where what they are saying is personal opinion and thus does not need to fit with the Bible, or be accepted by me.

    As to seeing God in human form, I cannot show it in the Bible, but my faith does not require this. Even if I thought there was a verse that said this, the wording would likely make it possible for you to interpret it in a different way. Like the Isaiah quote of there being one God, which you see as meaning one thing, and I see meaning another.
    However, as to them being separate, this can be shown in the Bible. This is shown in the many times that Christ spoek to the Father, in the fact that the Father spoke from heaven when Christ was baptized. It is also shown in the Vision of Stephen when he was killed, for he saw “Jesus standing on the right hand of God.” (act 7: 55) Adding to this Hebrews 1: 3 we read that God sent Christ who was in the “express image of his person,” we can assume that since Christ was human, and in the express image of God, that God is also human. Thus, the two are separate and both are human.

    As I said, either directly or indirectly I can see all the doctrine of the LDS church in the Bible.

  44. shematwater said,

    October 30, 2009 at 1:41 pm


    Another thing you should realize about me and my posts is that I rarely post to the original article, but in response to other people who are posting. I do not post on all threads, for some have no errors in them, and some are truly beautiful, and I do not wish to lesson that beauty. It is only when I feel that a great error has been made by others who respond to the blogs that I enter the conversation in an attempt to correct that error.

  45. catzgalore said,

    October 31, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    2 Corinthians 4 (my comments in parenthesis)

    1Therefore, since through God’s mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; (when we worship the Lord, we do so in public– and we talk about the Lord and what He did for us to anyone who will listen. It is not forbidden to talk about ANY of our experiences; it is encouraged!) we do not use deception (such as pretending to be someone you are not– not speaking of YOU here, Shem, because you say you are one person writing, but of another who wrote as more than one person), nor do we distort the word of God. (We use no Joseph Smith “restored” version) On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves (we do not try to convert anyone to our church!!), but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ. (can a man, however glorified, make his light shine in us? No, only the Spirit of God! ONE GOD!!)
    7But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. (jars of clay can be broken– and so would we except for the mercy of our Lord!) 8We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus (and some of us wear a cross to remind ourselves that we carry around in our body the death of Jesus! That is why it is on most of our churches!!), so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may be revealed in our mortal body. 12So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.

    13It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.” With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak, 14because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence. 15All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving to overflow to the glory of God.

    16Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
    I praise the LORD for His faithfulness! I praise Him for the words He gives me to speak.

    So I repeat; no, I do not wish to learn more about the doctrines of your church in order to seek to become a member. People who wish to do so usually go to PRO-MORMON sites, mainly And I know that you can find a way to twist these verses to “fit” your theology. But I pray for you, that Our Heavenly Father would open your eyes, your heart, your mind, your spirit, your soul to HIS truth; that He would shower you with His love and grace.

  46. rblandjr said,

    October 31, 2009 at 10:02 pm

    Hello All,

    My question is who or what determines error?

    The original article is, “It is the Father’s will to save believers”.

    What concerns me is who or what a person is trusting in for salvation, which I define as complete salvation where we spend eternity in the presence of God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

    Who are you trusting?
    Do you have absolute peace and assurance of this?
    That is a scary thought to not know the Prince of Peace and be assured of a place in his presence for all eternity.

  47. osbornekristen said,

    November 1, 2009 at 2:43 pm

    I am speaking in love, but……..
    I ask……do you actually believe that the JST was directly given to Smith by the Holy Spirit and is therefore perfect or more perfect than any other version?? And, what about the B of M with its many errors, direct plagiarism of the KJV, and 1000s of changes? How can you believe that Smith’s works are more correct when I could give a list a mile long of all of his errors and the corrections that have been made over the years??

    On July 2, 1833 he proclaimed** that his translation was complete. Thousands of changes were introduced into the Bible, including a new verse in Genesis 50 that predicted Joseph Smith’s own coming. But there was a problem…some of Joseph Smith’s changes to the Bible directly contradicted the same Bible passages quoted in the Book of Mormon. In addition, some of the changes directly contradicted Mormon doctrine. As a result accepting this “new translation” would be very VERY embarrassing and impossible to defend for the LDS church.

    If the LDS church was not at all worried about the ramifications of using the JST and saw no problems with it, they would use it regardless of who “owns the rights to it.” It is MORE than obvious that Smith simply added and subtracted from the KJV to write his own version. Why would the Holy Spirit have spoken to him in Elizabethton English anyway? It was not spoken in Smith’s part of the world. If he truly used “divine revelation” to translate words spoken directly from the Lord……why did the Lord not speak to him in Smith’s native American English tongue…..or better yet it Greek or Hebrew? It is so clear that Smith simply tweaked verses of the KJV to support his own made-up teachings.

    I wonder if you even understand that other translations such as NIV, NL, and NASB are not translated from the KJV. Scholars used the oldest Greek and Hebrew manuscripts to translate these newer, equally authentic translations. Because many ancient biblical documents have been uncovered since the KJV was written…..these newer versions contain less likelihood for error and a better understanding of ancient languages. Smith did not consult the Greek or Hebrew…….he claimed his translation was simply a “revelation.” But, again, I remind you that his version plagiarizes the KJV and simply changes wording to fit his teachings. It does not take very much wisdom to discern that his version is a bunch of malarkey. I think LDS scholars believe this too……or they would proclaim it to be the version to be used by the church and fight to use it no matter the cost! Again, if the HS had truly helped Smith write his version then why did Smith stick with a language that was dead in the western part of the world? The reason………because he simply copied/changed the KJV (even including errors in the KJV that modern translators have now found) and used it to promote his false teachings.

    I’m not trying to argue with you…….I just think you need to take a hard look at the facts.

    Also, I do believe what Christ said about God being a Spirit……if you chose to believe that it was a mistake in translation (as your church seems to in any case where their teachings and the bible don’t agree) ……fine…..even though the NIV, NL and NASB, etc (translated by different scholars) claim the same thing. What really bothered me was that in your post, you stated your belief that the Father could only be in one place at one time and is a glorified man. It is just hard for me to hear someone say this about our ALL POWERFUL, OMINIPETENT, OMINPRESENT, ALMIGHTY God. To be a glorified man would mean that he once used to be JUST a man. My God was NEVER “just” anything. He has always been and always will be ALMIGHTY GOD. His power has not been won by good effort or attained by living a perfect life in some other realm or world…… are belittling the unmatched power and authority of the God I serve.

    I don’t know your religious background or life story…….but I do know that you don’t really know the same God of the Bible…..the God who brought the Israelites out of bondage…..who David praised in Psalms…who is made up of three persons with distinct and purposes who are each equally God. I know you think you are right and have no doubts in the LDS church (actually I think you do). I just pray that you will one day see the true nature and awesomeness of our mighty God! I pray that you will seek wisdom only from Him and not through men who teach/taught mistruths on their own misguided journeys to becoming glorified men/gods.

    “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves” 2 Peter 2

    “ I am against these false prophets. Their imaginary dreams are flagrant lies that lead my people into sin. I did not send or appoint them, and they have no message at all for my people. I, the LORD have spoken!” Jeremiah 23:32

    “Your prophets have said
    so many foolish things, false to the core.
    They did not save you from exile
    by pointing out your sins.
    Instead, they painted false pictures,
    filling you with false hope.” Lamentations 2:14

    “ False prophets and those who seek their guidance will all be punished for their sins.” Ezekiel 14:10

  48. shematwater said,

    November 2, 2009 at 11:06 am


    I could give a very good interpretation of the verses you quote, however, most of what you say I would agree with. It is also true, as you say, that you really couldn’t care less what I believe, or what the LDS church teaches. You are not out to learn about the church, but to learn how to attack it.


    You show a complete lack of understanding regarding divine translations, as well as simple faith, that it is astounding.
    Now I could go into a great detail on all the rather rediculous points you make, but it would take way to long. Just as an example: Joseph Smith used Elizabethian English because that was the style familiar to the people when it came to scripture, and a style he loved. He was told the meaning that was intended, and than put it into the words he felt was most appropriate. Thus it causes no problem for anyone who has faith.
    You make no point that I could not just as easily explain. The difference is that I believe, and that I want to believe, while you do not believe, and you want to disbelieve. You will take anything you can that will give you another reason not believe, no matter how small or petty it. Me, it must be a great thing to even put doubts into my mind.

    Just one other thing, while Almighty, All Powerful, and Omnipotent are used to describe God in the Bible, Omnipresent is not. This is an idea that people see in their interpretation of the Bible, but is not spoken of directly. Thus, for me to say the Bible does not say this is simply to say I interpret the Bible differently (as I showed in the psalms passage you quoted earlier). Thus, as far as I read in the Bible he is not Omnipresent, and to be all powerful does not mean he can do anything, but that he has all power that any living being can have. As I believe that being in two places at once is beyond all possible power, I do not believe God can do this.


    What error do you speak of: that concerning the church, or that concerning the translation of the Bible?

    However, I think you are refering to my statement that my main purpose is correcting errors made concerning the church. Now, the original article was titled “It is the Father’s will to save Believers,” but the content was a direct attack on the concept of works in the LDS faith, which Geoff attempted to address. I joined in after this inition exchanged occured in an attempt to help him explain what is difficult for many to understand. Even in the original article it seems obvious that the writer does not

  49. shematwater said,

    November 2, 2009 at 11:11 am

    (sorry, my computer had trouble)

    To finish: Even in the original aricle it seems obvious that the writter does not understand the LDS doctrine, and is assuming that faith and grace have little to no part in it. Thus there is an error.

  50. catzgalore said,

    November 2, 2009 at 11:31 am

    This really needs no comments. You are free to believe that there are places you can be that your god isn’t. The God of the Heavens and the Earth, our Creator IS….. omnipresent.
    Psalm 139
    1 O LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
    2 You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
    3 You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
    4 Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.
    5 You hem me in—behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me.
    6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain.
    7 Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
    8 If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
    9 If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
    10 even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast.
    11 If I say, “Surely the darkness will hide me and the light become night around me,”

    12 even the darkness will not be dark to you;
    the night will shine like the day,
    for darkness is as light to you.

    13 For you created my inmost being;
    you knit me together in my mother’s womb.

    14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
    your works are wonderful,
    I know that full well.

    15 My frame was not hidden from you
    when I was made in the secret place.
    When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

    16 your eyes saw my unformed body.
    All the days ordained for me
    were written in your book
    before one of them came to be.

    17 How precious to [b] me are your thoughts, O God!
    How vast is the sum of them!

    18 Were I to count them,
    they would outnumber the grains of sand.
    When I awake,
    I am still with you.

    19 If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
    Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!

    20 They speak of you with evil intent;
    your adversaries misuse your name.

    21 Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
    and abhor those who rise up against you?

    22 I have nothing but hatred for them;
    I count them my enemies.

    23 Search me, O God, and know my heart;
    test me and know my anxious thoughts.

    24 See if there is any offensive way in me,
    and lead me in the way everlasting.

  51. catzgalore said,

    November 2, 2009 at 11:40 am

    I do not mean an attack. I just want the Lord or Creator and Father to be glorified and not men. I want you to know the Great I AM; the maker and ruler of ALL THINGS… not a god out of the imagination of Joseph Smith and whatever “angel of light” (demon) he consulted. I know Smith could not have invented this system on his own, he had the help of evil spirits. God allowed it for a reason, we don’t understand why. But I want GOD to be glorified; I want people to know that we are not gods and never will be; and that He is a Loving, Forgiving, Merciful Savior. We are not perfect, but Christ is. We are sinners, and not fit to be in the presence of God, but we are through Jesus Christ and His Sacrifice.

  52. osbornekristen said,

    November 2, 2009 at 5:59 pm


    I think it is ironic that you criticize my faith, yet you don’t have enough faith to believe that the Word of God……the Bible is a true, complete, love letter from the Lord that has been able to withstand the ages. And, no….I don’t have faith in the words of a man who merely plagiarized a “version” of scripture to fit his own desires……including errors and all. My comments are not ridiculous or lacking in faith. I have faith that when the Lord said in Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away” he meant that he would guide and protect his Word so that all men would know the TRUTH……not send a man to add to it and rewrite it for his own purposes. You, my friend, are the one who lacks the faith to believe that Almighty God surely can protect ancient God-breathed writings that he inspired men pass on through the ages.

    Smith chose to keep his version in Elizabethton English because that is the version he had to use on hand. Smith used the same language in the B of Mormon as well……because he again used words from the KJV version to fill in his story……drawing from the biblical source and wording that he had on hand….not from the words of the HS. I find it interesting that every time your facts point at Smith’s errors or lack of proof for LDS doctrine you accuse Christians of not having faith. You may claim to have “faith” in something……but it may not be truth. The only way to know what to have faith in is to be so bathed in the truth of scripture of the Bible that no one and nothing and cause you to sway from it. Peter said, “I am warning you ahead of time, dear friends. Be on guard so that you will not be carried away by the errors of these wicked people and lose your own secure footing” 2 Peter 3:17

    You admitted that you could find no Biblical reference to the Father having a body of flesh but you simply believe it by faith. Yet, you are sure he is not omnipresent because that term is not used in scripture. However, although the word omnipresent does not occur in Scripture, the idea is one that is presented throughout the pages of the Bible. One important theme is the idea that God cannot be contained in one place, even the heavens or the entire earth. When Solomon prayed at the dedication of the temple in Jerusalem, he said, “But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the highest heaven cannot contain you; how much less this house that I have built!” (1 Kings 8:27). Jeremiah 23:24 says, “Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD.” And, of course we have clearly shown how David spoke of God’s ability to be everywhere at once in Psalm 139.

    Why do you lack the faith to believe this yet cling solidly to the biblically non-referenced claims of your church’s leaders ?? Think about it 🙂

  53. shematwater said,

    November 3, 2009 at 12:09 pm


    You are out to attack, but it seems you do not realize it. You are out to disprove the LDS church, not to prove your own faith. You very words state this when you say you want people to know how wrong the LDS are.
    I do think you are wrong in many of your beliefs, but I try not to present it as such. As I said, I am here simply to teach what the LDS believe, not what I believe are errors in other faiths. See the difference in the approach?


    The idea of being omnipresent is a subjective interpretation of the verses you quote, which can just as easily be interpreted to speaking of God’s power and influence, and not his actual person.
    I believe as I do because it is the only doctrine that actually makes sense, the only one that I find worthy of honor and worship. I believe in Joseph Smith as a prophet, that he was visited by numerous angels who taught and restored the Gospel to him. I believe that the Bible was preserved in part to open the way for Joseph Smith, but I also believe in the agency of man, which God cannot take from him. With this agency it is possible that errors crept into the text through lazy or corrupt translations and transcriptions, which is why I do not rely on any written word for the truth, but seek the testimony of the Holy Spirit who is the bringer and teacher of all truth. I will not accept any written word until this great being, the third member of the Godhead, has told me to accept it as truth. This is why I have faith in the writtings of Joseph Smith, because a God has personally told me that they are true.

    Now, you say I lack faith in the Bible and the word of God, but I would say you lack faith in his power, for you deny that he can make us gods, and if he was all powerful this would not be difficult for him. So, tell me why we cannot be made gods.

  54. catzgalore said,

    November 4, 2009 at 12:01 am

    I started looking at my posts to see what could be an attack, and I realized there I was with my attention on MY words, looking to defend myself, and figure out what would be interpreted as “attack”. I am not telling you that you have no sense, or that I do not use my intelligence as you have implied of me. I am not saying that all churches are in apostasy as Joseph Smith did. Humanly speaking, I also react as if attacked. But it isn’t ME that matters here. Often, I myself don’t think I have a lot of sense or intelligence either, LOL, but that doesn’t matter; Jesus died for me! I only want to point you to Jesus, my Savior, my friend, my precious Redeemer.

  55. shematwater said,

    November 4, 2009 at 12:45 pm


    I understand your intention, but if you do not watch your words your purpose will be lost. I have made the mistake myself several times, and have gone back and corrected myself, and apologized for those things I should not have said.
    You want to point me to Christ, but you are not teaching the truth of Christ, but the falsehood of the LDS, and this is why it comes out as an attack.
    Personally, I know Christ, and I know the Father, and the being you worship is not either one. However, on these threads I am perfectly willing to accept that, because it is truly impossible to convince anyone on these threads concerning anything of faith. That is why I only wish to teach what the LDS believe, and leave all debates and persuasions out as much as possible.

    Neither one of us are going to convince the other to alter their beliefs, but we can bring the other to a better understanding of our beliefs.

  56. catzgalore said,

    November 4, 2009 at 11:40 pm

    Why is saying God is omnipresent pointing out the falsehood of the lds?
    I am pointing out what I believe.

    “God, to be God, must be infinite in all that He is. He must have no bound and no limit, no stopping place, no point beyond which He can’t go. When you think of God or anything about God, you’ll have to think infinitely about God.”
    – A.W. Tozer

  57. shematwater said,

    November 5, 2009 at 11:40 am

    “not a god out of the imagination of Joseph Smith”
    “I want people to know that we are not gods and never will be”

    These are just two quotes from you to illustrate what I am saying. Listen to them. In the first you want people to know Joseph Smith was wrong. In the second you want them to know that the doctrine of the LDS church is wrong.

    However, the largest attack you made was in post 42. In it you accuse me of having another write for me, a personal attack. In it you list all the reasons why you will not believe as I do, and in a way as to suggest I am a fool for believing it.

    Now, I will say, I have made similar remarks, and I do apologyse for them. However, my intent is analyse and explain, while yours seemed very much to shut down discussion and degrade my faith. Simply how it seems to me.

    I am happy to explain anything to you regarding the doctrine of the church, or what I personally believe (or at least most of it), and have no intention to convert you or alter your beliefs. All I ask is that you don’t reply with personal attacks or degrading comments. If you don’t understand I am happy to anser questions. If you don’t want to understand, that is fine as well. I want you to understand, so most likely, when I see a large error in the posts I will reply to correct it, but if you don’t want to listen that is your choice. Just simply don’t post a reply I will most likely leave it alone.

  58. shematwater said,

    November 5, 2009 at 11:44 am

    Oh, and just one more thing I thought I would mention. I say this only to get you thinking, not in an attempt to degrade your belief.

    As you quoted “He must have no bound and no limit, no stopping place, no point beyond which He can’t go.”

    I ask “Can God prevent himself from doing something?” In other words “Can God make a rock so big that he could not move it?” according to what you quote he can, as he has no bounds, no stopping point. However, if he did he would have created a stopping point in the rock which he can not move.

    Just food for thought.

  59. osbornekristen said,

    November 5, 2009 at 3:00 pm

    I just wanted to make a quick point Shem. Our God CAN do ANYTHING. However, there are certain things that he simply chooses not to do because of his infinite wisdom. There is NOTHING he cannot do……..however, there are things that He does not do because they are not beneficial to his children or in his plans for us. Jesus could have called a host of 10,000 angels to his side on the Cross and lept off to freedom…….but he chose not to. God could have made us all puppets on a string or robots doing exactly what he commands at all times…….be he chose not to. God could drop a new car in my drive-way or turn my dog into a flying super hero…….but those things are not part of His plan.

    In order to explain the deal about us not ever “becoming gods,” one must first understand that God (Father, Son, HS), angels/demons (including Satan), and us humans are DIFFERENT races and of a different nature. While angels/demons, Satan and humans are all created beings………God (Father, Son, HS) are NOT created beings. They have ALWAYS been and ALWAYS will be…….now that takes some faith believe…….but it is all supported by scripture. I know that your “prophets” and leaders teach that all these beings are of the same race…….but this is not Biblical. I am working on a post about this but my mommy responsibilties have been taking up most of my time.

    I simply ask that you search the Bible and see if you can find any verses that teach that men become angels or are even of the same race and that Satan was Jesus’s biological spirit brother. See what you can come up with…and don’t use LDS teachings.

    It isn’t that God cannot make us anything that He chooses…… just simply not part of the plan. You have said yourself that you haven’t found any LDS teachings that aren’t supported by the Bible……….I’m 100% sure that the Jesus/Lucifer relationship, men becoming angels and God once being a man are not Bible based. I am also 100% sure that our God is God ALONE…….of our world and any world that has or will ever exist. God adopts all of us humans who accept Christ into his family……making us joint heirs of our Father’s Kingdom. But, we are adopted children……..not gods like He is. We are his princes and princesses…….but we will NEVER be KING. For, there is only one King of Kings and Lord of Lords…….our Almighty God. We were created to serve, love, glorify and follow Him……..not to one day actually BE Him……Be like Him yes………Be Him……No.

    John 3:31″The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth.

    More later 🙂

  60. shematwater said,

    November 9, 2009 at 1:55 pm


    So, you admit that it is possible for us to be made gods, but do not believe that God will ever do so. The question that this brings with it is simply “Why won’t he?” In other words “what is his motivation?”

    As to the Bible supporting the doctrine, let us look at it.
    1 John 3: 2 “but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”
    We shall be like God when he comes. While we do not have a full understanding of this, it seems clear that we will be gods, as he is a god and we will be like him.
    2 Corinthians 3: 18 “But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.”
    We will have the same glory he has, changed into the same image, as if looking into a mirror. Again, how could this be without us being made gods?
    Ephesians 4: 13 “unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ.”
    If we become perfect, and reach the same stature that Christ has reached, would we not be like Christ, thus gods.

    Now that I have given these basic references, let me explain a few things, since you don’t seem to actually understand the LDS doctrine.
    We will never take the Father’s place. He will always be our Father, and our God. He is King of Kings, for we will be kings, and he will be our King. Inlike manner he is called the God of gods, for he is over all the gods of his generation, and all those who will be gods from ours. We do not take his place, or become him. However, we take it very litteral that we will become like him. Thus we can become gods, and we will be gods over our children, and eventually become gods of gods, but we will always be under our Father, as he is our God.

    Now, as to being of the same race: I don’t think I have list all the verses in the Bible that speak to us being the children of God, or his offspring. These verses we take litterally, thus we are his children. As it says in Genesis that all creatures bring forth after their kind. Thus if we are his children we must be of the same race, for one race cannot have children of another (yeah their is the mule, but it is sterile, unable to reproduce, and so is not a true race).

    Speaking of Satan, he is known as a “Son of the Morning.” (Isaiah 14: 12) What does this mean. First, the phrase “the morning” cannot be a reference to actual parentage, and thus we get the idea it refers to his order of birth. He is a “son of the morning” meaning he is among the firstborn, or oldest. Then we must ask what he is the son of. We are not told directly, but as he was in heaven it is not unlikely that his parents were as well. As the only parents we hear of in heaven is God, he thus is a son of God, thus our brother (and Christs) and of the same race.
    This is not a direct reference, and does take some thought and reasoning, but it does work.

    Now, please do not come back telling me my interpretation is wrong, as it is just an explanation of how I see the text, and how the LDS church sees the text. One cannot prove an interpretation righ. All I am doing is showing that these ideas are possible from the text.

  61. catzgalore said,

    November 9, 2009 at 10:33 pm

    Shem… you wonder why I thought someone else has been writing. Many of your “older” posts had numerous misspellings and awkward grammar. Suddenly, it improves. Your language becomes more “professional” sounding and less awkward.
    Your post in August 2009
    “First, there is no reference in the Bible that says sin can be atoned for without the sacrifce of teh Life-Blood. However, it also never says that the blood must be spint by men. Did you not read that in the Garden of Gethsemane Christ’s sweat was “as it were great drops of blood.” He bleed from every poor. I think this shedding of blood would qualify as the Life-Blood being sacrificed. ”
    Compare that with the later writing. Can you see why to ME, it seems obvious that someone either older, more experienced, or more educated has been writing lately? Or maybe you are copying from someone, or using a better spell checker? Just an observation, not an attack. If it IS really still just Shem, then you should be flattered, not offended. 😉

  62. catzgalore said,

    November 10, 2009 at 10:15 am

    Shem, what does it mean to you to become a god? What will it be like?

  63. shematwater said,

    November 11, 2009 at 1:03 pm


    I have no clue. I can speculate, but I really can’t tell you. This is what John meant when he said “it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.”

    There are a few things I do know. I know that me and my wife will live in our marriage covenant, having the same relations we have now. I can’t really tell you exactly how things will work, but we will have children (spirit children). I do know that there will be lots of work to do, and that it will take a little time to learn all that there is to know, but that we will eventually learn it.

    These are all vague ideas. We live in a mortal existence. This is a life of beginnings and ends. As such we cannot know what eternity is like, for we have not experienced it.

    As tot he thoughts of being another person: Read your post again (#41 I believe). The wording sounds as if you are accusing me of having another write because I lack the faith the answer you. This is what was offensive.
    Back in August I was under a lot more stress. I was a few month behind in rent, my Gas was shut off, and my electric and water were sending notices. I was just starting a new semester in college, and my Daughter’s Birthday was coming up.
    Now, I am several months ahead in my rent, I have caught up with my utilities, the semester is coming to an end, and things have just quieted down. I have more time to put into these posts, and thus I take more care to grammer and spelling.

    With your explanation it does sound more like a compliment, but I really haven’t changed in my ability, only my circumstances.

  64. catzgalore said,

    November 11, 2009 at 6:01 pm

    Well I am glad that things have quieted down. It is never easy when things are wacky… we just have to remember we are in the process of being refined and perfected and let the Lord do his work. I’m not saying this from the easy times, just so you know.

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