Do You Find it Difficult to Forgive Others?

For many years I struggled with God’s command to forgive others. I sincerely desired to forgive certain people in my life, but I just couldn’t do it. I would have days when I thought I had conquered my unforgiving feelings, but then something would happen and I was right back where I started.

My hearts desire was to gain forgiveness of my own sins. I knew that securing my forgiveness depended upon me freely forgiving others. After all, it was only fair that Heavenly Father withhold my forgiveness when I had not given it to others. There were many times that this knowledge drove me to despair. The burning question I lived with year after year was “how? How do I forgive them?”

Looking back, I realize that the reason it was so hard for me to forgive others was because I followed the example of my father. He was very unforgiving, especially towards his children. Whenever we did anything against his will, he gave us many requirements to follow before he would grant his forgiveness. He believed that working hard in all areas of our lives proved we were truly repentant of the wrong we had committed. He even kept a record of our mistakes; and whenever we repeated the same thing twice, he flung the previous sin back in our faces. Then, we had to start all over until we could prove we had really overcome that sin. Only then would our repentance be sincere.

I’m not actually talking about my earthly father—but about my Heavenly Father! At least the one I grew up with in the LDS church. This god truly is an unforgiving God! You can read about him on my blog page “The LDS Process of Repentance”. Here you will find pages of quotes by LDS prophets and apostles—defining the unforgiving LDS god and its savior. LDS scripture testifies that the Christ of Mormonism requires us to freely forgive everyone, even though he doesn’t hold himself to the same standard:

“Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” (D & C 64:9-10). In my late twenties I lost my faith in the unforgiving god of Mormonism, but my life became no better. I was so miserable that I would have committed suicide if I hadn’t had my children who needed me.

Amazingly, at the age of 36 a miracle happened! The Holy Ghost brought me to faith in the true Christ, and God adopted me into His eternal family. Through faith, I became God’s dear child and immediately received forgiveness of all my sins. I was so thankful to be God’s true child that I began pouring over all the love letters He had written for me, found in the Bible. Here, I learned much about my loving, merciful and forgiving Father in Heaven. This God’s love was so great that He sent His Son Jesus to take the punishment that I deserved for my sins. It was at Christ’s Atonement where all my sins had been forgiven—through the shedding of His life’s blood.

From the Apostle Peter I learned that LDS prophets are wrong—-forgiveness is not gained through obedience, but through faith: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

I was especially thrilled when I learned from God’s Word the key to forgiving others. It was the knowledge that all my sins had already been forgiven that unlocked my unforgiving heart. I realized I could afford to forgive others because I had been so richly blessed with forgiveness—first. All I had to do was follow the example of my Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ. After all, the unmerciful servant was expected to forgive those indebted to him only after his entire debt had first been canceled (Matthew 18).

It became easy to forgive others when I remembered that every one of my sins had already been forgiven. Now, whenever I have an unforgiving heart and want to cling to my bitterness; I turn to scripture to be reminded of my Heavenly Father’s example: “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Ephesians 4:32)

And also, the example of my Savior: “Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.” (Colossians 3:13)

Is there someone you can’t seem to forgive, especially since they really don’t deserve it? The key is to see that all your sins have already been forgiven—even though you don’t deserve it! After all, forgiveness is an inherently “unfair” concept. Thank goodness the true Heavenly Father isn’t fair! Instead of punishing those who deserved it, He punished His Son Jesus instead.

The true Christ’s blood has covered your every sin: Trust in Him and you will immediately receive forgiveness! Once you do, you truly will be blessed: “Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (The Apostle Paul in Romans 4:7-8; quoting Psalm 32:1-2)

Click here to read about the unforgiving natures of the god and savior of Mormonism:

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73 Comments

  1. echoechoecho said,

    January 29, 2010 at 8:48 pm

    Thanks for the “click here” link after your post. You gave a wealth of information and LDS resources at that link.

  2. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    January 30, 2010 at 9:30 pm

    You’re welcome. And, thanks for reading it.

  3. shematwater said,

    February 1, 2010 at 2:26 pm

    I find it funny that you would call the God of “Mormonism” and “unforgiving God” when yours is truly no better.

    After all, who is forgiven that does not have faith. Is it not true that those who do not believe will receive no forgiveness, but be thrust down into eternal damnation with Satan. If you are going to label your god the “forgiving god” and ours the “unforgiving” than shouldn’t you teach that all men, regardless of any act or belief, will be forgiven?

    However, I can truly say that both your doctrine and the doctrine of the LDS church teach a very forgiving God. In truth I think we ahve a more forgiving God than you do. After all, all men (with the exception of the Sons of Perdition) will attain to some level of forgiveness and enter into heaven in some degree. However, with you it is either believe or be cast out. It seems a lot harsher, and a lot less forgiving.

  4. echoechoecho said,

    February 2, 2010 at 12:17 am

    Shematwater said: “If you are going to label your god the “forgiving god” and ours the “unforgiving” than shouldn’t you teach that all men, regardless of any act or belief, will be forgiven?

    The whole world has been freely forgiven already because Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for their sins. (2 Cor 5:19) Problem is, they don’t believe it.

    Some even attempt to atone for their own sin by thinking they can overcome their sin in order to be forgiven. This would be where the LDS fits in.

    There are two eternal destinies when we die. Jesus spoke about those two destinies when he talked about those on his right and those on his left. Heaven and Hell. No unclean thing can enter the kingdom of Heaven. We must be sinless and spotless before we die, 100% forgiven. Do it on your own as you are doing… or… believe on Jesus who did it all for you.

  5. shematwater said,

    February 2, 2010 at 8:16 am

    ECHO

    The problem is that if they are forgiven they are clean and thus they should justly be saved in heaven. What you are teaching is that for those who do not believe their unbelief will not be forgiven, and thus they are unclean. As such the god of Christianity is a very unforgiving god.

  6. echoechoecho said,

    February 2, 2010 at 11:06 am

    Luther said it once like this:

    Even he who does not believe that he is free and his sins forgiven shall also learn, in due time, how assuredly his sins were forgiven, even though he did not believe it … He who does not accept what the keys give receives, of course, nothing. But that is not the key’s fault. Many do not believe the gospel, but this does not mean that the gospel is not true or effective. A king gives you a castle. If you do not accept it, then it is not the king’s fault, nor is he guilty of a lie. But you have deceived yourself and the fault is yours. The king certainly gave it. (LW 40, 366f)

  7. shematwater said,

    February 3, 2010 at 8:43 am

    ECHO

    This changes nothing. All men are forgiven (accept those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost -Matt.12:31; Mark 3:29; Luke 12:10). If all it takes to gain entrance into heaven is to confess Christ as the savior, than all will eventually enter Heaven, “For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every aknee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall bconfess to God.” (Romans 14: 11)
    This is what the LDS church teaches. The only ones who do not receive a forgiveness are those that we are told will not (see above). But everyone else will, at some time, enter some level of heaven, for everyone will eventually confess Christ and know his power. Thus the forgiveness and Grace of God in LDS doctrine is a farther reaching concept than that of most other Christians.

  8. echoechoecho said,

    February 4, 2010 at 3:03 pm

    Who are those who blaspheme?

    Refusing to believe that our sins are forgiven is the same as accusing God of being a liar (Apol. XII, 62).

    Melanchthon writes, “If anybody, therefore, is not sure that he is forgiven, he denies that God has sworn to the truth; a more horrible blasphemy than this can not be imagined” (Apol. XII, 94).

  9. shematwater said,

    February 5, 2010 at 9:09 am

    ECHO

    Again, you are not quoting the prophets, so I am not bound by it.

    However, even with this you have only served to prove my point, that the LDS concept has a much more forgiving God than the rest of Christianity.

    By this quote the blasphamy against the Holy Ghost would simply be to deny the saving power of Christ. Thus all those who do not believe are not forgiven and are cast out.
    Now, consider the LDS teaching. In order to be guilty of Blaspheming the Holy Ghost one must first be baptized into the LDS church, then partake of the Melchizedek Priesthood (being ordained, or being married to one so ordained), enter into the eternal covenant of marriage, and then commit murder and concent to the death of Christ (D&C 132: 27)
    Which criteria will result in the created number of people who shall not be forgiven? I would say that the general Christian perspective is the less forgiving of the two, for simple disbelief is unforgivable to them, while it takes a great deal more to fall this far by LDS doctrine. As such the LDS perspective is a much more forgiving God than the general Christians.

  10. echoechoecho said,

    February 10, 2010 at 5:56 pm

    The LDS God only forgives when you overcome your sin. Even then it could be weeks, years or centuries before you are assured of forgivness. Our God has already forgiven us apart from anything we do.

    LDS forgiveness:
    Lets say you owe someone $100,000.00 and can’t afford to pay it back. Your told your debt is forgiven after you pay that money back.

    Biblical forgiveness:
    Lets say you owe someone $100,000.00 and can’t affort to pay it back. Your debt. is forgiven. You don’t have to pay it back.

    Who’s debt is truly forgiven?
    If I pay back that debt. I don’t need to be forgiven for the debt. I paid it off!

  11. catzgalore said,

    February 12, 2010 at 1:24 pm

    I think as far as Shem has said, LDS forgiveness is if someone owes $100,000.00 and can’t afford to pay it back… you do the best you can to repay and God will make up the difference. But the paying back isn’t about our salvation, it’s about our level in heaven. In LDS terms, Christ’s atonement made it POSSIBLE for us to be with Jesus, but it doesn’t guarantee anything.

    I have tried to research that on the lds site. Under “forgiveness” it teaches that God forgives us if we repent and remembers our sin no more. Even the Nephi quote (lds) says that if we come we will be accepted. So either Shem has it wrong or the church position is changing, or what it says on the site is not the full story.

    As far as I understand it, it isn’t the full story. You will be accepted, but if you do nothing then you will not get to be in the highest heaven. You are accepted, but you have to earn your level in heaven.

    BUT…On the lds site, it says:

    In the scriptures, the word “heaven” is used in two basic ways. First, it refers to the place where God lives, which is the ultimate home of the faithful (see Mosiah 2:41). Second, it refers to the expanse around the earth (see Genesis 1:1).

    It says nothing about levels of heaven. It says Heaven, where God lives, is the ultimate home of the faithful. So how can somewhere God isn’t be called Heaven at all?

    So, Shem, can you understand the confusion when the lds site doesn’t say what the lds church really believes? On casual reading, it seems to agree with scripture. But on further study, we find out that what we as Christians believe (word definitions) are not the same as lds definitions. We can seem to be discussing the same thing, but we’re not.

    Your version of “Christian” says that my version of “Christian” won’t be with Jesus. We’ll just be with each other! That isn’t “Heaven” by your church’s definition.

    Your Jesus says, come to me. but you have to work hard or you won’t get to be with me…if you don’t do enough, you won’t be with your family, you will be on some lower level with the rest of the “Christians“. But Jesus won’t be there. God won’t be there. Doesn’t sound like “I will give you rest” to me…

    The Biblical Jesus says… “Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” (Matthew 11:28) Jesus said He would give us REST… we can trust that HE ALONE paid the price for our sins. We do good works to honor Him and because we love Him not because we are trying to get ourselves up the ladder. We take up the work of the Lord not because of ourselves, but because of HIM… for HIS glory, not for our own glory.

  12. shematwater said,

    February 17, 2010 at 11:46 am

    CATZ and ECHO

    You guys fail to understand that the LDS church is not going to actively teach people how to enter the lowest levels of heaven. We want all people to be exalted as gods with our Father. As such all the doctrinal discourses you speak of, and all those given or approved by the First Presidency are aiming for that goal. To attain the level of forgiveness required for entrance into the Celestial Kingdom and Exaltation requires us to do our part. However, the level of forgiveness required for entrace into the lowest Kingdom of glory requires that we do nothing.

    As to being with Jesus, you really have no understanding if you claim we teach you won’t be. As long as you are not murderers or audulterers, or guilty of these most grevious sins, the odds are you will be in the Terrestial Kingdom, where you will ” receive of the apresence of the Son” who is Jesus. you just won’t receive the “fulness of the Father.”

    As to the term Heaven, You give that which is in the basic definition, but you fail to look at the links below it. In additional information it directs you to “Kingdoms of Glory.” In the Bible Dictionary it does the same.
    As I said before, you must understand the reasons. We, as the LDS, would not consider anything less than exaltation a true heaven, and thus, technically, you could say they are not. However, as all three Kingdoms are a place of glory, where at one of the Godhead will be. As such they can be considered a type of heaven. Also, in the most basic definition of the terms (going from general Christian perspective) the only possibilities are Heaven (where God is) and Hell (where Satan is). As we teach that few will actually be cast out into the Hell where Satan dwells the only other option is admition into heaven on some level.

    However, if you want me to be more specific I can simply use the term Salvation instead of heaven, as all the degrees of glory are a messure of salvation. As such, the LDS doctrine still portrays a more forgiving God, for the same reasons I stated above (just read in salvation instead of Heaven).

  13. echoechoecho said,

    February 19, 2010 at 6:39 pm

    So some will go to the 1) celestial kingdom, some to the 2) tellestial kingdom and some to the 3)terrestial kingdom and very few to outer darkness. Being with the Father only in the first kingdom, with visits from Jesus in the second kingdom and the Holy Spirit in the third?
    What about repentance with regard to the second and the third kingdom?
    No repentance = license to sin.
    You won’t know how much you have been forgiven for until you die. Right.

    We already know we are totally and completely forgiven. Those who believe this, every single one of them, ***ALL*** go to the celestial kingdom to be with the Father. In our beliefs, God’s children aren’t divided up into 3 seperate levels depending or based on their performance in this life. They are loved because God IS love and he loves his children equally regardless of their performance. That’s a much more forgiving God.

  14. shematwater said,

    February 20, 2010 at 11:53 am

    ECHO

    Again you are wrong. I person who does not know how much they ahve been forgiven most likely hasn’t been (accept on the basic general forgiveness given to all through the atonement). We all know that we have received the forgiveness that comes through the atonement, and so we will make it to heaven in some degree. Through repentance we can come to know that we will be admitted into the higher glories. We can know, and we should all be seeking to know, if our sins have been fully forgiven.

    As to a more forgiving God, you still don’t see it. Your God may be more forgiving to those who believe in him, although technically that is not true.

    First, (from an LDS perspective) I would say that you do not have true faith in the one true and Living God. You believe the God as described by general Christianity, which is not the true God. Therefore, you do not have the faith that will get you into the Celestial Kingdom.
    Now, if the LDS God was going to be just as forgiving as yours you would be cast out into Hell with Satan, for you do not believe in him. Yet, you are not cast out into Hell. You are brought into Heaven with a lesser glory, and will enjoy the presence of Jesus Christ, as will most of Christianity.
    All those who truly believe in One true and Living God, and show this faith through obediance, will be admitted into the Celestial Kingdom.

    Now, let us look at your God. All those who believe will be brought into heaven. All those who do not believe will be cast out into Hell. So, we both have the same doctrine that all those who believe in the True God will enter the Celestial Kingdom, but it is only the LDS God that allows for lesser rewards, who will still save and forgive all sins (regardless of faith) except the blasphamy of the Holy Spirit. Your God forgives all Believers, and only believers. Our God forgives everyone, even non-believers.

    As such, who is more forgiving? The one who reserves forgiveness to the believers, or the one who gives it to all men?

  15. osbornekristen said,

    February 21, 2010 at 1:28 am

    Shem, you said
    “However, the level of forgiveness required for entrace into the lowest Kingdom of glory requires that we do nothing.”

    I’m sorry but this is completely unbiblical. Throughout the Gospels, Jesus explains the way to have eternal life over and over and over. He says, “Believe, Believe Believe!!!” One MUST believe in Jesus in order to have eternal life!!! Those who do not believe will perish!! There is NO “glory” (even the lowest level) for those who reject Christ in this life. Unlike believers, they will face judgement and will not have Christ to stand in their place (as a sacrificial lamb covering their sins). Because they will be judged as sinners, as there is NO way they have led completely perfect lives (because NONE of us have), they will perish=eternal seperation from any part of God.

    It doesn’t matter a BIT what YOU think is more forgiving. God has told us the way to forgiveness plainly in His word. He has given us a LOVE letter called the Bible and spelled out clearly the way to forgiveness……BELIEVING in JESUS!! Again, it doesn’t matter a hill of beans what YOU think “seems” fair or more forgiving. It matters what GOD says! He says, “Those who BELIEVE in me will not perish but have eternal life”………He does NOT say because of the “atonement” ALL men will have eternal life to some degree. It just isn’t there Shem. To believe that all men……regardless of their unbelief will gain gain access to any part of God simply goes against the TRUTH given in the Bible.

    Where do you find all of your church’s requirements for the degree’s of glory in the Bible? Are they just found in the words of mere men who have claimed to be prophets or can you pin point all of the specifics in biblical scripture (cause your church teaches specifics about these kingdoms).

    Either you believe the words of Jesus in the Bible or you don’t.

    John 3:18 –“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”

    John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

    I don’t think Jesus could make it any clearer. I am pretty darn sure that “the wrath of God abiding on someone” does not equal any level of Heaven/eternal life/hanging out in paradise/ or whatever you wanna call it.

    Wrath and comdemnation aren’t pretty and don’t equal forgiveness.

    Jesus makes forgiveness simple. One man (who was/is God in the Flesh), one cross, a miraculous resurrection ………..Believe, Believe, Believe!! Trust Him, Believe Him, Accept Him, and live a NEW life in Him. It is that simple.

    It is not a tricky test or a unmarked path……..it is Grace……it is simple. But those who deny Him and reject Him……WILL be comdemned, will persish and will face God’s wrath in judgement……believe, believe, believe! To deny this is to deny the words of Jesus himself.

    You can make up your own story and attempt to intellectualize any way you want……..or put your faith in the story of a sinful man, just like you and me who clamied to be a prophet ……or you can believe the words of Christ Jesus. But you can’t have it more than one way.

  16. echoechoecho said,

    February 21, 2010 at 8:44 pm

    Shem,

    Contrary to what you said, I do believe that everyone has been forgiven, believer and unbeliever. However, unbelievers reject that forgiveness and in so doing, forfeit that forgiveness and the Savior who’s forgiveness it is.

    I share the same sentiment as osbornekristen in posting John 3:36 “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

    “Wrath” and “shall not see life” inevitably means outer darkness.

    When you believe that one of three levels of heaven will be rewarded to people based on their works, you forfeit the forgiveness and the Savior who’s forgiveness it is. You reject that you have been so fully and freely forgiven that the celestial kingdom has been given to you as a gift. That is the atonement. That is how God has made us at one with him. Instead, because you must do certain works to gain a certain level, you yourself are the atoning sacrifice for your sins. Honestly, that is a rejection of all that Jesus has done for you sadly to say.

    Even in your 3 kingdoms of heaven, does not scripture teach: “no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God” ? All 3 of your kingdoms are the kingdom of God. If they are not, then they are the kingdom of the devil. If they are the kingdom of God, then again: “no unclean thing can enter the kingdom of God”

    You teach that the unrepentant will obtain and be rewarded with the lowest glory. That is unscriptural for without repentance there is no salvation. What that teaching promotes is licence to sin and promise of reward for doing just that. Just because God has forgiven sin, does that mean in your teaching, that he no longer cares whether or not we sin? In your teaching, does God reward sin? Does God reward unrepentant sin? Did Jesus die so that men can now freely sin?

    I believe that Jesus died to save us “FROM” sin, not “FOR” sin. That would be the difference between what you believe and what I believe.

  17. shematwater said,

    February 22, 2010 at 10:41 am

    OSBORNE

    Why the lecture. I couldn’t care what you think is biblical or not. That is not the discussion of this thread. The question of this thread is who believes in a more forgiving God? If you can’t even comment on the focus point why are you commenting at all? It seems that you have no real argument against what I say, so instead of trying, or just accepting it, you get violent in word on a diffent topic all together in an effort to shut me out. It won’t work.

    Now that we have that out of the way, let me say a few things.
    In 1 Corinthians 15 Pauls tells us that we will be resurrected to glories, jsut as the sun, moon, and stars have different glories. He even makes more than three, for in verse 41 he says “for one star cdiffereth from another star in glory.” Thus there will be many glories, or degrees in Heaven.
    In Matt. 12: 31 (Mark 3: 29; Luke 12: 10) Christ states “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.” Notice that he makes no distinction between believers and unbelievers. All manner of sin shall be forgiven unot men, all men. The only exception is Blaspheming the Holy Ghost. Now, I will admit that it depends on your definition of Blaspheming the Holy Ghost, but you see my point. However, verse 43-45 seem to show that one must have first accepted Christ before they can be guilty of this, which is why the LDS church teaches that one must first be a member of the Church before they can be guilty of this, which is why we believe that many outside the church are still going to reach some level of heaven.
    As to your comment aboutn gaining eternal life, I couldn’t agree more. We must believe t gain eternal life. However, faith is not enough. We read in 1 John3: 15 that “no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.” It does not excuse him because he has faith. It simply says he does not have eternal life.

    While I could give more evidence from the Bible to support these doctrines, this will suffice.

  18. echoechoecho said,

    February 22, 2010 at 5:09 pm

    1 Corinthians 15 isn’t talking about the 3 tiers of heaven that you believe in.
    What it is talking about is what our earthly body is like and what our heavenly body will be like.

    The terms: terrestial and celestial are used in the archaic KJV

    Our earthly bodies are terrestial :

    “terrestial: of or relating to or characteristic of the planet Earth or its inhabitants” or “A term used to describe anything originating on the planet Earth.”
    (http://www.google.ca/search?dq=what+is+terrestrial&hl=en&defl=en&q=define:terrestrial&ei=5AuDS9CvKdX-nQeJqqSXBw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAkQkAE)

    Celestial- ” “a heavenly body” and “celestially – In a celestial manner; concerning the heavens”
    (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:celestial&ei=qQyDS8XeBs-JnQemjuSZBw&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE)

    In reading the context of the archaic KJV of the bible it still is clear that our bodies are what is being talked about. If we use a less archaic bible that contains english that our generation can understand, your view of these passages as being interpreted in error is even more clear: Here is the NIV

    1 Corinthians 15:35-57 “35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. 37When you sow, you do not plant the body that will be, but just a seed, perhaps of wheat or of something else. 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body. 39All flesh is not the same: Men have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another. 40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. 41The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor.
    42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
    If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47The first man was of the dust of the earth, the second man from heaven. 48As was the earthly man, so are those who are of the earth; and as is the man from heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. 49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.

    50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 53For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. 54When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”[g]
    55″Where, O death, is your victory?
    Where, O death, is your sting?”[h] 56The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

  19. catzgalore said,

    February 23, 2010 at 8:38 am

    Shem, the reason to believe doctrines is not whether the god you believe in is more forgiving, but that Who we believe in is the God of the Bible. God forgives completely when we acknowledge His GIFT. You will not be SURE if you have done enough to get you into the celestial heaven until you die. Then you might be really disappointed to find out that you haven’t done enough and your wife has been taken and given to another and you won’t be with your family. Don’t you worry about that?
    I know NOW that Christ did enough to save me … because it is HIS doing. I depend on GOD to pay for my sins, not my own puny efforts. I could never do enough on my own. NEVER.

  20. shematwater said,

    February 23, 2010 at 12:56 pm

    ECHO

    First, I never liked the NIV, nor any other more modern Translation. The KJV is just fine and has less error in it than any of these others, having been, in part, preserved by God, while these others have no claim to devine saction or inspiration. While in this particular case the general meaning is the same, I have seen cases in which they are very different.
    As such, I will always stick with the KJV when quoting the Bible in these threads.
    So, to give verses 37 and 38 again: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.”

    Now, let us examine this. What is Paul saying? He is comparring the planting of seeds to the Resurrection. In other words, we are the seeds that have been planted, and we await God to determine what body we will be resurrected with. Like he says, some will be of wheat and others another type of grain. Thus he is saying that in the resurrection we will not all have the same body, but God will determine what body we have.
    However, notice the “as it hath pleased him” meaning that God ahs already determined with what body we will be raised, and that is dependant on whatseed we are, as “to every seed his body.”
    Thus we see the idea in these two verses that what we are in this life determines what we will be resurrected into in the next life. Those who live to a higher glory here will receive of a higher glory there.

    Now, 39-41: “All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.”

    Again, this is an analogy to the resurrection. Just as there are different kinds of bodies in this life, such as men and animals and birds, so there will be in the next life, in the Celestial and Terrestrial. And just as the animal is a lesser body, or of lesser glory, so is the Terrestial of a lesser glory than the Celestial. Just and the sun, moon, and stars differ in glory, so too do the resurrected bodies of men.
    It is all a comparrison, done very beautifully. Just as there are varying degrees of glory in mortal life, so are there varying degrees of glory in Eternal Life.

  21. shematwater said,

    February 23, 2010 at 1:54 pm

    CATZ

    You obviously do not know LDS doctrine if you can say “You will not be SURE if you have done enough to get you into the celestial heaven until you die.” This is very much against LDS doctrine, as we can be sure that we will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. It is called “Having your Calling and Election Made Sure,” (2 Peter 1: 10) or “The More Sure Word of Prophecy” (2 Peter 1: 19).

    As to believing doctrine, when did I ever say my arguments were a reason to believe the doctrine of the LDS church. I never once made this claim. You have simply fallen in line with Osborne here. The topic of this thread was not whether the doctrine was correct, but what doctrine taught a more fogiving God.
    So, staying in line with the topic answer this, regardless of which doctrine is right, which doctrine teaches the more forgiving God? And please be direct and to the point with your answer.

  22. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    February 23, 2010 at 5:02 pm

    Shem, you wrote: “You obviously do not know LDS doctrine if you can say “You will not be SURE if you have done enough to get you into the celestial heaven until you die.” This is very much against LDS doctrine, as we can be sure that we will make it to the Celestial Kingdom. It is called “Having your Calling and Election Made Sure,” (2 Peter 1: 10) or “The More Sure Word of Prophecy” (2 Peter 1: 19).”

    It’s no wonder that Catz is not aware of this LDS belief. Doing a search on lds.org shows that this LDS doctrine does not receive the same focus today as it once did. In fact, it has not been spoken of in the Ensign for over twenty years. Of the six Ensign articles that reference this LDS teaching, five were written in the 1970’s and one in 1989. The LDS book True to the Faith, which was written in 2004 claims: “If we use the word salvation to mean eternal life, none of us can say that we have been saved in mortality. That glorious gift can come only after the Final Judgment.” (page 153).

    However, it is true that “Having your calling and election made sure” is a foundational LDS teaching. In fact, this teaching is what divides Mormonism from Christianity—it shows that Mormonism believes in a false Christ. This false teaching declares that it is through your own works–your own righteousness that you can be assured of eternal life. The very Son of God, the Christ; has testified that no one is righteous, in fact, no one is even good! He taught that our standard for righteousness is Heavenly Father Himself. He bore witness that it is through faith in Him that we can have the assurance of eternal life.

    The Ensign article: “Accepted of the Lord: The Doctrine of Making Your Calling and Election Sure,” Jul 1976, is a great article to read if you want to understand this false teaching. It explains that the only way to have the assurance that you are guaranteed eternal life is through your works—your obedience to God’s commands. It teaches the false LDS belief that those who are obedient to God’s commands will become gods themselves. The article claims:

    “To have one’s calling and election made sure is to be sealed up unto eternal life; it is to have the unconditional guarantee of exaltation in the highest heaven of the celestial world; it is to receive the assurance of godhood; it is, in effect, to have the day of judgment advanced, so that an inheritance of all the glory and honor of the Father’s kingdom is assured prior to the day when the faithful actually enter into the divine presence to sit with Christ in his throne, even as he is ‘set down’ with his ‘Father in his throne.’ (Rev. 3:21.) (Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, Bookcraft, 1973, 3:330–31.) As Elder McConkie goes on to indicate, the “unconditional guarantee” means that a person’s actions have been fully approved, that “there are no more conditions to be met by the obedient person.”

    A true believer in Jesus knows that they do not even come close to meeting all of God’s conditions to be obedient. They know they are totally sinful and could never be righteous with their own works. They know that it is only through faith in Christ they have been credited with Christ’s righteousness. A true believer is assured of eternal life because of Christ’s perfect works—not their own.

    Anyone who believes that they can be assured of eternal life because they have achieved some level of righteousness with their own works, does not believe the words of Christ!! They believe in a false Christ. Anyone who believes that they have obeyed enough of God’s commands and have met all that God requires, is arrogant and full of pride—that person is an unbeliever!

    If you are interested in reading the full article, here is a link:

  23. catzgalore said,

    February 23, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    Shem, The God of the Bible is in reality the ONLY GOD. It is strange to compare “your god” and GOD… I too believe that you believe in a false god. I believe that you have been deceived. I pray that God opens your eyes and your heart to see the truth.
    The God of the Bible forgave me completely when He gave His life. He forgives my shortcomings totally (because of JESUS’ works), knowing it is not my good works that earn me a place in His presence. He forgave me COMPLETELY!!! The god you believe in forgives conditionally.

  24. echoechoecho said,

    February 23, 2010 at 7:31 pm

    Shem, Okay, lets examine the KJV
    I will put my comments in caps so you can find them between the verses more easily. I am not yelling, just making it stand out.

    1 Corinthians 15:35-54

    “35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

    36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

    37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

    IN THE ABOVE VERSES, IT IS TALKING ABOUT PLANTING REAL SEED. (BARE GRAIN)

    38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

    CARROT SEEDS COME UP AS CARROTS, TOMATO SEEDS SOME UP AS TOMATOES, RADISH SEEDS COME UP AS RADISHES ETC.

    39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

    BEAST, FISH, BIRDS AND ANIMALS ALL HAVE DIFFERENT FLESH. HOWEVER, THIS VERSE SAYS THAT MAN HAS ONE KIND OF FLESH.

    40There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    THE CELESTIAL BODY IS THE BODY WE WILL HAVE IN HEAVEN. THE MEANING OF “CELESTIAL” IN THE STRONGS CONCORDANCE IS: “SPOKEN OF THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND WHATEVER PERTAINS TO IT”
    THE TERRESTRIAL BODY IS THE BODY WE HAVE NOW HERE ON EARTH. THE MEANING OF “TERRESTIRIAL” IN STRONGS CONCORDANCE IS: “RELATING TO THINGS IN THIS LIFE-BELONGING TO THE EARTH”
    THE VERSE IS THEREFORE SPEAKING ABOUT THE EARTHLY BODY BEING DIFFERENT FROM THE BODY WE WILL HAVE IN HEAVEN.

    41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

    42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
    HERE AGAIN, THE EARTHLY BODY THAT WE HAVE NOW IS SOWN IN CORRUPTION(OUR TERRESTRIAL BODY) AND RAISED IN INCORRUPTION(OUR CELESTIAL BODY) ALL BODIES WILL BE RAISED INCORRUPTABLE.

    43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: AGAIN, SPEAKING ABOUT OUR EARTHLY BODY(TERRESTRIAL) SOWN IN DISHONOR AND WEAKNESS THAT WE HAVE NOW AND THE BODY WE WILL HAVE IN HEAVEN(CELESTIAL) IS RAISED IN GLORY AND POWER. THE SAME GLORY, THE SAME POWER FOR ALL.

    44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. AGAIN, THE TERRESTRIAL BODY IS OUR NATURAL BODY WILL BE A CELESTIAL BODY A SPIRITUAL BODY. HERE THE VERSE MAKES THE DISTINCTION CLEARLY BETWEEN OUR NATURAL BODY AND OUR SPIRITUAL BODY. THERE IS NOTHING IN ANY OF THESE VERSES THAT STATES THAT EACH BODY WILL VARY IN DEGREE OF GLORY.

    45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
    AGAIN, A COMPARISON BETWEEN TTHE BODY WE HAVE NOW AND THE BODY WE WILL HAVE THEN. THE BODY WE WILL HAVE THEN IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE.

    47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

    48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

    49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

    AGAIN, EVERYONE WILL BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY. THERE IS NOTHING WRITTEN HERE TO SAY THAT WE WILL BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY IN DIFFERENT DEGREES. THE FACT IS WE “ALL” WILL BEAR THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY.

    50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

    51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

    52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. AGAIN, WHAT WE WILL BE IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE.

    54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

    AGAIN, WHAT WE WILL BE IS THE SAME FOR EVERYONE. THERE IS NO DEGREES OF GLORY THAT YOU DESCRIBE. THE TERMS CELESTIAL AND TERRESTRIAL USED HERE SAY ABSOLUTELY NOTHING OF TWO SEPERATE KINGDOMS. YOUR READING INTO SCRIPTURE SOMETHING THAT ISN’T THERE. IF THESE VERSES WERE SPEAKING ABOUT DIFFERENT KINGDOMS, IT WOULD BE VERY CLEAR. NOT TO MENTION, YOUR THIRD KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, THE TELESTIAL KINGDOM ISN’T EVEN MENTIONED.

    THE REASON YOUR LEADERS CHOOSE THE KJV AND TELL YOU THAT ALL THE OTHER BIBLES HAVE ERRORS ETC IS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO KEEP PEOPLE BLINDED TO THE TRUTH. THE KJV WAS AN EXCELLENT BIBLE IN IT’S DAY WHEN ALL OF IT’S LANGUAGE WAS EASILY UNDERSTOOD BY THE SIMPLE. BUT THE ARCHAIC ENGLISH IS OUTDATED FOR OUR DAY AND ONLY KEEPS SIMPLE PEOPLE IN DARKNESS. GOD LOVES US TOO MUCH TO WANT TO KEEP US IN DARKNESS, HE WANTS EVEN THE SIMPLE TO READ HIS WORD AND UNDERSTAND IT.

  25. echoechoecho said,

    February 23, 2010 at 8:04 pm

    Catz hit the nail right on the head.

    The Mormon God forgives on condition.
    The God of the Bible forgives unconditionally.This is a much greater love and forgiveness.

  26. shematwater said,

    February 24, 2010 at 7:18 pm

    Personally, you are all being very rediculous. Of course you believe the LDS doctrine of God is false, and that is perfectly fine. At this point I could care less. Just so that we are all on even ground here, I think that what you guys believe is false, so out of tune with what the Bible says that I feel a little pity for you at times.
    However, this does not prevent me from having an intilectual conversation in comparring the two beliefs in regards to forgiveness. To say it is, or that you don’t like to do so, is to simply say you are unwilling to put your beliefs against my. This is fine, but it would be nice to know this at the beginning and not after I have already spent so much time in trying to do so.

    Now, LDSWOMAN
    Let us look at the first chapter of 2 Peter. I am not trying to convince you that we are right, as I have said before. Only that what we teach can be found in the Bible (and I don’t mean in your interpretation of the Bible, but the words themselves).
    After his salutation he writes (in verses 3-4) “According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
    Notice the two phrases “According as his diine power hath given” and “Partakers of the divine nature.” It is through the divine power of Christ (not ours) that we may partake of divine nature (or become divine, ie gods).

    Now verse 5-7″And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.”
    You will notice here that he does not say that Christ will add these things for us, but that we must be diligent, or working, to have them added to us. This is on us.

    Verses 8-11 “For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.”
    Now, here is the statement that without these you have no knowledge of being saved, or forgotten the forgiveness you received. However the good part comes with him saying to “give diligence to make your calling and election sure” with the promise that if you do you will never fall, and followed by the statement that through this “an entrance shall be ministered unto you” into the “everlasting kingdom” of Christ. Thus, once we have given the diligence required to attain to all these virtues, and have our calling and election made sure, we know that we will not fall, but will have entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.

    It is all very simple. Whether you agree or not does not matter for this discussion.

    ECHO

    I understand what you are saying, and I have never denied that the wording allows for that interpretation. All I have said is that it also allows for the interpretation I have laid out, and so the wording does support the LDS doctrine, in the way I said. It is all opinion, and only God can tell who is right, and then only to each individually. For if he speaks to you that does not tell me, and vice versa.

    As to forgiveness on condition, you are again wrong. God forgives all sins, except the balsphame of the Holy Ghost. He forgives all men, whether they believe or not. However, his rewards are on condition. His forgiveness is universal, but his rewards are not. This is what I think people get confused about. We do believe that what glory we receive in heaven depends on our actions here, but we do not beleive the forgiveness of God does.

  27. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    February 25, 2010 at 12:43 pm

    Shem, you wrote: “Notice the two phrases “According as his diine power hath given” and “Partakers of the divine nature.” It is through the divine power of Christ (not ours) that we may partake of divine nature (or become divine, ie gods).”

    So if we become gods only through Christ’s power and not our own, then why is becoming a god dependent upon our obedience to God’s commands? If becoming a god depends upon Christ’s power and not our own, why won’t all people become gods?

    You wrote: “However the good part comes with him saying to “give diligence to make your calling and election sure” with the promise that if you do you will never fall, and followed by the statement that through this “an entrance shall be ministered unto you” into the “everlasting kingdom” of Christ. Thus, once we have given the diligence required to attain to all these virtues, and have our calling and election made sure, we know that we will not fall, but will have entrance into the Celestial Kingdom.

    Do you remember, that Jesus commanded us be as perfect as Heavenly Father? (Matthew 5:48) That our standard for meeting the conditions of perfection is Heavenly Father? Using your interpretation of these verses; are you saying that there are people, who by their own works and righteousness have actually “met all of God’s conditions” for entrance into eternal life?

    According to your interpretation of Peter’s words, you claim that a person can know that they have eternal life only when they have “met all of God’s conditions” through their own works.

    Using your interpretation of Peter’s words, why would Peter teach a different way to gain eternal life than both Jesus and John the Beloved? Both of them testified that you can know you have eternal life. Both of them declared that eternal life is gained through faith! (John 3:15-18, 3:36, 5:24, 6:47; 1 John 5:13)

  28. shematwater said,

    February 26, 2010 at 9:22 am

    LDSWOMAN

    Why do you insist on taking only part of a doctrine and running away with it? Why is it that you cannot see how all things are bound together.

    Yes, without faith you cannot gain Eternal Life, but Peter is not saying that you can. It is through our faith in Christ that we gain the power to accheive what Peter is admonishing us to. Read agian verse 5: “Add to your Faith” is what Peter says. Faith is the beginning, and without it nothing else can be acheived. But it is not the end. There is more, and that is what Peter is teaching. He is teaching that if you simply have faith, but do not give due diligence to aquire virture, knowledge, temporance, and all the other attributes of diety that he lists in verse 5-7 you have no garuntee of gaining eternal life.

    As to becoming Gods, it is through his power because it was the atonement that made the resurrection possible, without which no one could partake of the Divine nature. It is also through his authority and power that we are quickened in the eternal worlds with the glory that we have lived on this world. God is perfectly just and will not give to any man that which he has not earned, and so not all will become gods, as not all will have lived that glory in this life.

    As to perfection, yes I believe many people have attained to this state in their lives. They have worked with Christ, constantly improviong themselves until they reach the point at which they will no longer sin. Genesis 6: 9 tells us Noah was perfect. Enoch was translated, as was Elijah and Moses. These were men who had attained perfection while in this life. Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Isaiah, Peter, James, John, Paul, all attained perfection in this life. Many of the Book of Mormon prophets attained perfection. It was said of Nephi that he would “not ask that which is contrary” to God’s will (Heleman 10: 5). Also, many in this day have attained this perfection. Joseph Smith Sr, Joseph Smith Jr, Hiram Smith, Brigham Young, and all the Presidents of the church, as well as many of the Apostles and early leaders. I believe this with all my heart.
    This in no way takes away the perfection of christ, for he attained perfection as a spirit before coming to earth, and while here he never once sinned, from the time of his birth until the time of his death. All the men I listed above have sinned in one way or another, but all reached a point in their lives when the truly ceased from sin, and thus were made perfect through the atonement of Christ.

  29. echoechoecho said,

    February 27, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Shem said: “However, his rewards are on condition

    Therefore your God loves you conditionally.

    Have you been good enough to spend eternity with Heavenly Father?

    I am not good enough to spend eternity with Heavenly Father but I get to spend eternity with Heavenly Father because he loves me for who I am and not for what I do. Who am I ? I am His child all by his doing alone.

    Who are you? Are you a hired hand? An employee? A slave? Who are you?

  30. osbornekristen said,

    February 28, 2010 at 9:25 pm

    Shem said,
    All the men I listed above have sinned in one way or another, but all reached a point in their lives when they truly ceased from sin

    This is insane. I am sure that your leaders/prophets DO teach you this. But, this is NOT what the Bible teaches………and you SHOULD care that the Bible differs from the LDS belief.

    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Romans 3:22-23

    (This verse not only proves that one MUST believe by faith in Jesus to be forgiven…..unlike you claimed in another post but also that EVERYONE is seen as sinful in God’s sight because they have sinned at some point. Perfection is NOT an option for humanity……no matter how close one might come. We will be perfected in Christ when we reach eternity. But, it is not by leading a sinless life on earth……but by believing in Jesus.)

    Are you REALLY gonna tell me that Joseph Smith left this earth in a state of perfection……a “point in his life when he truly ceased from sin?” Jesus is our example of perfection……..the only example. When he died, he did so completely willingly.. He was PERFECTLY in line with the Father’s will. No other man……has EVER been perfectly in line with the Father’s will but Christ. No man has ever even KNOWN the Father’s perfect will but Christ. So, it makes staying in line with it impossible!!!

    Even when Peter attempted to defend him and fight off the soldiers in the Garden, Jesus stopped him and went willingly…..knowing death was upon him. Smith, on the other hand, had a concealed weapon…..killed two men and injured another in a desperate attempt to save himself! History tells us that he also drank alcohol that night as well……..something that He taught WAS/IS WRONG! Is it okay to drink when you are fearful? Isn’t being fearful, sinful anyway (a natural human emotion…….but sinful just the same). Do you think it is okay to drink when you anxious or afraid?? My point is, it is VERY ironic that you would state that Smith had reached a point of perfection when his final night consisted of killing and drinking. And, don’t cry self-defense either. If a modern day prisoner had a smuggled hand gun and shot at mob of civilians, killing 2 people……he would not be seen as innocent. The fact that he had a smuggled weapon would be his first wrong. I also believe that if he were truly willing to die for the LDS church, he would have faced death with a Christ-like willingingness to be martyred. It would have been natural for him to be afraid of death…….which proves his imperfection. But, a man who had reached the point of sinlessness would NOT have killed others in an attempt to save himself or his followers. He should have been willing to suffer and face any type of horrible death for the sake of his cause……..that is if…..and I say if…….he TRULY believed that what he preached was truth.

    Scholars write that Peter asked to be crucified up-side-down. Paul was willing to be imprisoned (not attempting to murder his accusers and was even cheerful about it!)….he was later beheaded. John was banished to an island, Mark was dragged through the streets and burned to death, Thomas was thrust threw with a spear……and so on and so on. Yes, these men WERE probably afraid! Yes, some of these men may have attempted to fight off their attackers in some way or another. However, they WERE NOT SINLESS as Christ was and neither was Smith!

    Paul says, while in prisoned for his faith, in Phil. 1:18-21 “Yes, and I will continue to rejoice, for I know that through your prayers and the help given by the Spirit of Jesus Christ, what has happened to me will turn out for my deliverance.I eagerly expect and hope that I will in no way be ashamed, but will have sufficient courage so that now as always Christ will be exalted in my body, whether by life or by death. For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.” ——–Quite different from Smith’s view ehh?

    There is no WAY that a perfectly sinless man……as you claim Smith was when he died……would have smuggled in an illegal weapon, broken his own Word of Wisdom and killed others in an attempt to save himself (that certainly would not have been following the example of Christ).

    Men can be good men. Men can be great men. But, men cannot be perfect or sinless men………until they have new, eternal bodies in Heaven! Smith is the perfect example. I know you may disagree. But, I guess you have to……..your whole belief system depends upon it.

    I’m glad mine does not. I’m glad I have this assurance through God’s Holy Word. I don’t need my church leaders to be perfect or sinless. I don’t need to worry that the mistakes I make in this life might cost me to be separated from my Heavenly Father for all eternity and put me in a kingdom apart from him. I don’t need my spouse to be completely sinless so we can live together for all time and eternity without fear of having to “dump” him for someone more righteous. All I need is JESUS! That is ALL you need too Shem!

  31. shematwater said,

    March 1, 2010 at 11:49 am

    ECHO

    You do not understand love if you can honestly say what you have. My mother once told me that if I commited murder she would not love me any less, but would hold my hand all the way to gallows.

    It is not love if you give something when it is not earned. It is love when you withhold that which is not earned. A spoiled child is loved no more by his parents than a child who was raised under strict rules, but the spoiled child will have a harder time addapting to adult life.

    God loves all of us enough that he will not give us that which we cannot handle. He loves us enough that if we are unable to live the life of a god he will not make us a god. He loves us enough that he will do only that which is good for us. No matter how much he may want us to live with him, he will not bring us home if that would be a hinderance to us. This is perfect love, the love of God.

    OSBORNE

    Are you really saying this. Have you listened to nothing I wrote, just picking out one little phrase.

    First, as to Romans, did I ever once say that these men never sinned? No. I said that they reached a point where they would no longer sin. Even in Romans it does not say that all men sin (present tense) but that all have sinned (past tense) which is exactly what I said.

    Now, as to your ttangent about Joseph Smith, you are being rediculous. First, his weapon was not illegal, as there was no laws banning uns back then. Second, it was not smuggled it, but given to him by the Jailer. Second, I can claim self Defense all I want. In your example of modern times mob storming a prison I would grant the same thing. It was self defense, pure and simple, and anyone under the same cercumstances would be justified in similar actions. Now, as to comparing the ancient apostles, none of them were killed by a mob, except Stephan. The rest were sentenced to Death by the Government, and I have no doubt that Joseph Smith would have gone willingly to the executioner’s block if such was ruled by the legal courts of the day. He fought back a mob, not the law.

    Now, to clear up a few other remarks, my faith does not depend on this doctrine that we can become perfect in this life. The vast majority of us won’t, but will attain to it in the next life. Thus, if I am wrong, oh well. There is no statement ever made by any leader of the church declaring anyone to be perfect except Christ.

    Now, with all this, Christ is still the only person who was perfect from the day he was born until the day he died, and on through eternity. That is was makes him different, that is why he is our “Perfect Examplar,” because he never sinned. All others have sinned (past tense) but all may reach a point where they will no longer sin.

    Now, I have to ask a small question. Why are you so hostile to a simple oppinion? What is with that?

  32. osbornekristen said,

    March 1, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    Shem,
    I totally get what you are saying about YOUR belief that “All others have sinned (past tense) but all may reach a point where they will no longer sin.” I understand what you believe……I just don’t agree. My point was that it makes NO sense that Smith had reached that point in his life of no longer sinning at the time of his death.

    I will agree that he was murdered. I will agree that he was attempting to defend himself……….but I DO NOT agree that he was sinless (present tense not past) at the point of his death……which proves that even he was not able to reach a point of perfection in his own life. He was not in Carthage Jail freely willing to lay down his life for the Church or he would not have accepted and hidden a pistol in his underwear. He would not have drunk wine as Taylor accounted in volume seven of the History of the Church. He states that “Sometime after dinner we sent for some wine. It has been reported by some that this was taken as a sacrament. It was no such thing; our spirits were generally dull and heavy, and it was sent for to revive us. I think it was Captain Jones who went after it, but they would not suffer him to return. I believe we all drank of the wine, and gave some to one or two of the prison guards.

    Taylor makes it clear that it was not for sacrament purposes but to “revive” their spirits. Big Mormon No-No…..yet Smith and the others gave in.

    He was also in Jail for commissioning the destruction of private property. He wanted the Nauvoo Expositor and its printing press destroyed in order to save face. It is more than obvious that the Expositor was going to bring to light illegal practices in his plural marriages. He did not want his misdeeds aired to the public. Is this the picture of a man who had reached a sinless point in his life???

    It does matter that you believe men can reach this point. There are thousands of LDS folks who everyday look in the mirror and think “I am NOT good enough to make it to the Celestial Kingdom. I am not as righteous or as worthy as Smith, LDS Presidents or apostles and I will not spend eternity with my Heavenly Father or even with some of my family.” S

    Shem, I know this is true because I have heard it come from the mouths of my own family members. People who strive to be “good enough, ” “holy enough,” sinless enough,” and want more than anything to spend eternity with Smith and LDS leaders whom they have been taught reached “perfection.” They wonder why they can’t seem to reach this point if it IS indeed possible. The reason they can’t seem to come to a point of sinlessness is because it is IMPOSSIBLE!!!

    I am not talking about committing grave sins. I am speaking of little things like anger, jealousy, etc. If they are taught that LDS leaders and Biblical apostles reached a point where they NEVER failed in any area……..they feel hopeless and settle on the fact that spending eternity with their Heavenly Father is out of reach.

    The Bible does not teach that our salvation (aka entrance into eternity with the Heavenly Father) is based on any level of perfection or being good enough. It says that we must just believe in the one the FAther sent!

    The Bible NEVER mentions men/a man who reached a point of perfection. It says some were made righteous by their faith but it NEVER says they reached a point where they no longer sinned.

    I am not hostile to your opinion. I am just very sad for the members of the LDS church who uselessly strive for perfection and compare their own lives to men who they believe reached perfection……….but absolutely did not. It makes me feel very sorry for LDS folks who uphold men and who led sinful, unperfected lives just like the rest of humanity……..yet, millions of Mormons, everyday, doubt their own eternal destination based on their own failure to live up to these leaders’ level of perfection.

  33. echoechoecho said,

    March 2, 2010 at 11:18 pm

    Shem: “It is not love if you give something when it is not earned. It is love when you withhold that which is not earned. A spoiled child is loved no more by his parents than a child who was raised under strict rules, but the spoiled child will have a harder time addapting to adult life.

    The analogy you have given doesn’t apply to what we are talking about though. Even though I disagree with your analogy I don’t need to explain why I disagree because I am not talking about rewards within the safe, secure and certain family enviroment as you are. I am talking about the LDS reward being Heavenly Fathers love itself. It’s not a safe, secure and certain family enviroment when obedience is the requirement that will be rewarded with an eternity spent with Heavenly Father And when falling short of that goal seperates you from an eternity spent with Heavenly Father.

    A child who lives his whole life with the insecurity, fear and uncertainty of wondering if his parents will leave him by the road side never to see him again because he fell short of their expectations of him, isn’t a parent a child would want to obey in the first place. Parents like that are scoundrels and brute beasts. They only love their children on condition of obedience.

    The parent who makes a child feel safe, secure and certain they will be his parents no matter what the child does is the kind of loving parent a child would try his best to please. They love their children unconditionally and as a result of that love, the child flourishes and grows quite naturally.

  34. shematwater said,

    March 3, 2010 at 9:35 am

    ECHO

    You still have no concept of love. I will use my own parents as I did earlier. I have no doubts that my parents love me, and no doubts that they will welcome me home whenever I want to come. However, they have certain rules concerning their house, and I must follow them. They have banned movies that are rated “R” and so I will not bring them into the house. They do not allow alcohol, or other drugs, and so I will not bring them into the house. However, if I did I would fully expect my parents to ask me to leave, for it is their house.
    Now, you call this insecure, but I have not fealt this in all my life. My parent’s house is one of the most secure places I have ever been. I do not violate these rules because I know my parents love me, and this is what makes it secure.

    How selfish would I be if I refused to follow their rules simply because I didn’t want to? How selfish is a child who declares that their parents don’t truly love them because certain behavior is not tollerated at home?

    The same is true of God. He loves us, unconditionally, and will welcome us home when ever we come. However, no unclean thing can dwell with God. Thus, if we chose to live unclean lives we should expect to be cast out. If we expect to be saved, against what God has decreed, we have proven that we love ourselves more than we do God, and want him to disregard his own law so that we can have that which is not rightfully ours.

    What I have said does not deminish the love God has for us. But what you siad does deminsh our love for him.

    The true test of love is if you are willing to do what is best for someone, even when such would cause difficulty or harm to them.

    OSBORNE

    My faith is not dependant on this doctrine, and it is not taught by the LDS leaders. This is personal opinion formed from what I have read and studied.

    As to all the little things you sight (jealousy, anger, etc), these are not necessarily sins. Even Christ got angry and cast the money changers from the temple with a whip, and yet he was perfect. God has said he is Jealous God, and yet he is perfect. Perfection does not mean the cating off of all flaws of Character. Perfecetion means to be sinless, or to to never consiously and willing violate the laws of God. This Christ did, even though he was angry at the money changers.

    I believe Joseph Smith was perfect at the time he died, meaning that he did not consciously or willingly violate the laws of God, not that he did not have flaws of character. I loved the statement he once made that the only sins he committed were those common to all men. He then stated that even Christ would appear to be less than perfect if he lived among the saints today. Why? Because people have the idea that if you are not exactly like them you are not perfect, and Christ is not exactly like them. Of course, to say if you are not exactly like Christ you are not perfect is just as silly.
    (I will respond to the whole wine thing a little later).

    As to the Bible requiring works, it is so obviously there that I find it funny that people don’t see it. However, this is subject to interpretation, so what you believe the bible says means little to me, as I can see this in the Bible.

    Examples:
    Mark 16: 16 “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be cdamned.” While the lack of face denies you salvation, the presence of it does not garuntee salvation, for one must also be baptized.

    John 3: 5 “Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Another reference the requirement for baptism.

    Matt 7: 21 “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Notice that it is those who “DO” the will of the Father that make it to Heaven, and not those who simply call on Christ (or have faith).

    Dozens more can be given, but this is sufficient.

    As to calling a man perfect, did you not read my post form before, where in I cite Genesis 6: 9, which stats that Noah “was a just man and perfect in his generations.” It seems to me that the bible does say that at least one man was perfect.

    Now, in closing, any person who thinks they cannot attain the Celestial Kingdom and exaltation without being as good and perfect as Joseph Smith does not understand the LDS doctrine, and I highly doubt that most members of the church do feel this way. It is not a common thing, though it does happen. However, I will say that mosst members do hold a secret desire to be that good and perfect. I strive for it every day, and I do want to be that perfect. However, it does not matter if I make it there in this life (though it would be nice) as long as I am trying I will make it eventually.

    (Oh, and since I do not believe that God would ever give a commandment to us that he knew we could never fulfill, I will always believe perfection is attainable, as Christ said “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.”)

  35. shematwater said,

    March 3, 2010 at 12:51 pm

    After double checking the quote you gave from church history I am ready to answer the wine accusation.

    First, one thing that needs to be understood, the Word of Wisdom was not a command at this time. It was simply words of wisdom, or counsel. It was not required of anyone until the 1850’s. Brigham Young even explained at one time that it was only counsel to give the members time to both raise children who were not used to the drink, and to work on breaking it themselves. When this counsel was given the vast majority of people consumed alcohol in some form as there was little else to drink.
    Thus, in drinking wine Joseph Smith was not acting contrary to the will of God.

    Second, we do not know the motivations behind this action. From the discription given by John Taylor, and especially the idea of “reviving” them, it could logically be said that it was taken for medicimal purposes. Joseph and Hiram both knew they were going to die, and at the time there was little in the way of medication to soften not only this reality, but the pain of the death that was coming.
    Without knowing the motivation behind the act we, as mortals, cannot judge whether the act was a sin or not.

    Third, I have to point out that John Taylor only says he thinks they all drank the wine. It is obvious he is going from memory here, and by the statement of “I beleive” is allowing for a possible error in his memory. As such the claim that we know Joseph Smith drank wine is not true. The claim that he likely did is true, but by these words we cannot actually know.

    With all this I have just as much support to say that he was perfect (in the way I described) as you do to claim he wasn’t.

  36. echoechoecho said,

    March 3, 2010 at 12:54 pm

    Shem, your talking about adults, I am talking about children. We are God’s children.

    A child who lives his whole life with the insecurity, fear and uncertainty of wondering if his parents will leave him by the road side never to see him again because he fell short of their expectations of him, isn’t a parent a child would want to obey in the first place. Parents like that are scoundrels and brute beasts. They only love their children on condition of obedience.

    The parent who makes a child feel safe, secure and certain they will be his parents no matter what the child does is the kind of loving parent a child would try his best to please. They love their children unconditionally and as a result of that love, the child flourishes and grows quite naturally.

  37. shematwater said,

    March 3, 2010 at 5:43 pm

    ECHO

    You seem to think that the term child has to refer to being truly young and innocent. It doesn’t. I am an adult, and yet I am still my parents’ child.

    What I am saying is that we were young shildren, as spirits. But we have now grown, and able to grow into adulthood (speaking eternally, not mortality). In the LDS doctrine it is simple to compare or pre-existance to a kind of elementary and secondary school, being young. Our mortal life is much like our college years, being away from home to learn what we need to make ourselves capable of joining the family business. The eternal worlds is us entering life, and depending our grades here in school we will be given a position is the family business.

    I do not believe we are all little children. We are full grown, adult children of God, and we have the capacity, through the power of the atonement, to learn how to be gods like our Father in heaven, and he will do all he can to help us acchieve this potential.

    As to little children, God does not abbandon them. It is well known that the LDS church teaches that all who die before the age of accountability (8 years of age) are saved and redeemed by the Atonement of Christ. Little children are never abbandon, but adult children are allowed to fail, and face the consequences of that failure.

  38. echoechoecho said,

    March 3, 2010 at 9:38 pm

    Shem, By comparison to the maturity of God, we are by far very immature. Parents don’t discipline their adult children. God disciplines us because spiritually speaking, we are young children.

  39. shematwater said,

    March 5, 2010 at 11:14 am

    ECHO

    In knowledge, in power, in capability, yes we are far behind God. However, that does not me we cannot attain to what he has, and this is what I am saying. You want us to remain little children. You have no faith that we can one day be truly like our Father in heaven. If this were true than you would be right. But it is not true. We have the devine nature inside us, the potential to become like our Father, to truly be heirs of all he has (his knowledge, power, and glory) and to this end we should be striving. And if God truly loves us he will not allow us into this state unless we have the ability to live it.

    According to you we will never have the ability, and so we will never enter this state. Fine. But I do not agree. I think we do have the ability to do just that, but we must prove we can before we do. There is no less of the love of God.

  40. echoechoecho said,

    March 5, 2010 at 11:51 pm

    Shem.

    I didn’t mean we stay as little children, but certainly physical adults can be spiritual infants. We grow from there never reaching spiritual adulthood this side of heaven.

    You said: “And if God truly loves us he will not allow us into this state unless we have the ability to live it.”

    Do you believe you have the ability to live it?
    Are you living it?

  41. shematwater said,

    March 6, 2010 at 8:43 pm

    ECHO

    Right now I do not. Partly because I am a mortal, or the physical drives of the Mortal body are different than that of an immortal one.

    However, do I know that I could if I was put in that situation? No. But God does, and that’s what makes his judgement perfect.

    As to reaching spiritual adulthood on this side of heaven, let me put it this way.

    In regards to our spirit body we were adults before we ever came to this earth. We had lived, grown, and progressed as spirits long before our mortal existance began. We are spirit adults, and as spirit adults we need to learn to act to our full potential.
    In comparisson to mortality, it has been stated by some leaders of the LDS church, and agreed to by recent theory in psychology, that a person as young as 12 years can be said to have the maturity level of an adult, while one who is in their fifties may ahve that of a ten year old.
    Thus, adulthood, or the state of being an adult, with no subject text or criteria, begins at the legal voting age, or 18. All people are considered adults at this age, at least to me. However, this is not a standard of maturity and how well one functions within society.
    In a similar manner, we were spirit adults before we were physically born, but this is not a messure of our ability to live as gods. Just as the Higher Education in mortality is used to train those who are entering adulthood to function in society, so too is this life training the spirit adults to function in the eternities. And just as there are various degrees in university that qualify one for greater privilage in life, so too there are degrees in behavior and learning in this life that qualify one for greater glory in the eternities.
    And, just as there are those in this life who enter the institutions of Higher Learning at a young age and graduate at a young age, so too in this life (and for some even before this life) there are those who progress faster and attain to that privilage in this life. It is not the majority, but there are those that do make it.

    I don’t know if this helps, but I tried.

  42. echoechoecho said,

    March 7, 2010 at 8:06 pm

    Thanks for sharing your beliefs and helping me to understand them better. We don’t believe that man pre existed in a spirit world.

    God sarcastically asks Job if he was there when God layed the foundations of the earth. If we were Spirit children before coming to the earth, we would have been there. (God implies that If he had been there, he would know the answers to everything that follows verse 5) The fact is, Job wasn’t there. He wasn’t a Spirit child.

    Job 38:3-5 (King James Version)

    3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.

    4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.

    5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?

  43. shematwater said,

    March 8, 2010 at 10:01 am

    ECHO

    I think it is funny that you use the same reference as proof against a pre-earth existance that I use for it.

    It doesn’t really matter that you don’t believe when comparing our concepts of the love of God. When all your beliefs are taken into account your concept is the one that would show the greatest love. When all the LDS beliefs are taken into account our concept is the one that would show the greatest love. This is the point I have been trying to make, even with the whole Forgiveness topic. If you concider your beliefs our concept is not as good, but then if you concider ours yours is not as good. Thus, the only real comparrison can be made when considering how the concept relates the the doctrine it is based on and not on the doctrine the other is based on.

    Now, as to Job, in case you were wondering, I will explain.
    In the verses you cite I do not see God telling Job he was not there, or that he did not exist. I see God kind of pounding it into his head that in his current state Job lacks the understanding to and knowledge to tell where he was. Notice that God says to “declare, if thou hast understanding.” In other words “Can you tell where you were? Can you explain the process by which all this was done? ” Because our mortal bodies put a veil over our memory of this time Job could not have answered these questions, and this is God’s point.
    I say this because in verses six seven God states “Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the SONS OF GOD shouted for joy?”

    Who are the “sons of God” but us. We are his children, for he is the Father of Spirits (Hebrews 12: 9). Thus we were there when the foundations were laid, and we shouted for joy. As such the preceding verses cannot be a declaration that Job was not there, but only that he cannot remember, and thus cannot explain what happened.

  44. echoechoecho said,

    March 8, 2010 at 12:05 pm

    Who gets rewarded the lowest kingdom of glory?

    If Job was there as a spirit when God created the foundations of the earth, why would God say to him: “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundations?

    Surely God would know he was there which makes God’s question and everything that follows, entirely inappropriate since according to your beliefs Job was there.

    Check out this link below. When the three words: “Sons of God” are used together here in Job, what are they referring to? 1-F says: “sons of God [for angels]”

    http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H1121&t=KJV

    The NIV translates that verse clearly like this: “7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

  45. shematwater said,

    March 9, 2010 at 12:44 pm

    ECHO

    I have no real problem with the NIV giving the word angels. As far as I am concerned it means the same thing. An angel is simply a being who came from heaven who is not mortal. Since we were all spirits at this time we would have rightly been called angels. See how it all fits rather nicely.

    As to the question being inappropriate, it is no such thing. Of course God knows, but that is exactly the point. Job, though he never abbandon God, still questioned the reasons behind his suffering, and God was lecturing him. The whole lecture was basically, “I know what was going on, I have that understanding, and that is why I am God. Do you have that understanding? Can you explain these things? No. So stop complaining and questioning.” It is very appropriate.

    However, what did you think of what I said to conclue our last topic?

  46. echoechoecho said,

    March 9, 2010 at 1:17 pm

    Where is it written in the Bible that we are angels in premortality?

    Then God shouldn’t have said “where were you when I laid the earth’s foundations?” Obviously Job was there according to your beliefs. Job should have responded to God: “I was there” Also, Job would have nothing to repent of simply because he was there when God laid the foundations of the earth. But later on in Job, Job repents. It doesn’t fit with your interpretation.

  47. shematwater said,

    March 10, 2010 at 9:36 am

    ECHO

    You fail to understand the art of lectures. First, Job knew he existed then, but what was he actually doing? We were all there in the grand counsel when God put forth his plan, but none of us knows exactly what part we played. So, yes Job existed, but he still had no clue as to what he was doing.

    As to him repenting, he repented of his questioning. He never once abandoned God, but he questioned his motives, and in doing accused God of being unjust, as he saw no reason for the punishment. This is what he repented of. He repented of accusing God of injustice.

    It is all very logical, and it all fits with the wording of the scriptures.

    As to us being Angels, I never once said it in the Bible. I simply said that that was the doctrine I believe in. We are not refered to as angels in any writing I have ever read, but the logical conclusion of the doctrine that is taught by the LDS church is that the term Angel can be appropriately applied to all those spirits who have not yet been born (which we all were at the time of the creation).

  48. catzgalore said,

    March 10, 2010 at 10:22 am

    Shem, you said on another thread…
    “This behavior does suggests that they want what they believe to be true, and so will simply dismiss any proof to the contrary.”

    This is exactly what YOU are doing except the other direction, on this thread. Even when shown the foolishness of the LDS interpretation, you just dismiss it

    There are so many examples of that with others I have talked to. They will not consider that what they believe might be twisted, because if LDS beliefs are twisted in one area, what if they are ALL twisted? I pray that one day the LDS system will come tumbling down around you and God will let you see with new eyes and new heart HIS truth.

  49. shematwater said,

    March 10, 2010 at 11:46 am

    CATZ

    No one has yet shown any foolishness in anything that I hae said. They have shown a difference of opinion, but nothing more. Show me my foolishness and I will gladly admit it, but do not claim to show it when it has not been shown.

    I do not have to pray for the downfall of false churches, for I know without any doubt that it will happen, and when it does the LDS church will stand as a shining beacon to all who truly want the truth and to join Zion.

  50. catzgalore said,

    March 12, 2010 at 7:34 pm

    The beacon shining is Jesus, and He is shining already. Anything else is a false beacon.

    Shem, the foolishness is believing that your obedience earns you anything. Only the grace of Jesus can pay for our sins. It is foolishness to think that you can do enough to earn His love. If you depend on what YOU do to save you, to get you to the Celestial Heaven, or whatever it is you say the goal is, THAT is what is foolishness.

  51. shematwater said,

    March 13, 2010 at 10:43 am

    CATZ

    What is foolishness is that you actually think I believe what you say. Let me point out a few errors in your statement.

    First, I do not have to earn God’s love, as you say, for he loves all of his children regardless of what they do. I will go so far as to say that he loves Satan, for satan is his son, even though he fell from grace.

    Second, when did I ever say I depended on what I do to save me? I haven’t. What I have said is that my reward depends on what I do, but my salvation does not. No matter what I do I would be condemned to hell with Satan if it was not for the Atonement of Christ, for which I thank him. There is no other way, and I will never deny this.

    Now, I think it fitting that you refer to Christ as beacon. Beacons are stationary things put to guide people into the proper paths, such as light houses. They fulfill their purpose simply by existing, and it is up to us to do what we can to follow them. Take the lighthouse. It warns against the rocky sholes, but it will not steer the ship for us. We must still do our part to ensure our safe passage. So it is with Christ. He is the Beacon, or the lighthouse, guiding us to the safe port, but we must still steer our ship towards that port or we will still be dashed on the rocks.

  52. catzgalore said,

    March 17, 2010 at 5:25 pm

    I forgot that you use different language for things. You say I am foolish and yet you use different meanings for my familiar words so when I make a statement it does not mean what you think it means. One of the problems with having an intelligent discussion with someone who is LDS. You speak a different language than the rest of us.

    Salvation is, to me, the opportunity to spend eternity serving and worshipping the Lord. The thought is far from my mind what kind of reward I will get. That is not up to me. From what you say, salvation is merely the OPPORTUNITY to spend eternity with the Lord, but not a guarantee. So that means that, to you, Christ’s salvation will give Satan the opportunity to be condemned to hell forever. Without Christ’s gift, he would just cease to exist, but now that Christ has extended salvation, he will live forever– in hell?

  53. shematwater said,

    March 19, 2010 at 1:50 pm

    CATZ

    You are again not understanding what I am saying.

    First, Salvation is the opportunity, as you say, to spend eternity serving and worshiping God. The difference between us is that I am very much concerned with the copacity I will be serving and worshiping, which I call my reward. you don’t really seem to care what job you get in heaven, as long as you are there. I do care.

    Now, salvation is a garuntee to all people, except those who commit the unpardinable sin, as we are taught by Christ in the Bible. It is our position, or reward in heaven that is not garunteed.

    As to Satan, he fell long before this world was created. The Atonement has no effect on him, nor can it. He currently lives on this Earth, for he is the “Prince of the World,” and will be until Christ comes again and there is that final war of “Gog and Magog,” after which Satan will be cast into outer darkness for the rest of eternity. Without the atonement we would all be cast out with him.

    Now, I never once said anyone would ever cease to exist. The inelligence is eternal, as is the spirit. It cannot be created or destroyed. As such there must be a place reserved for the rebelous (like Satan) which is called hell, or Outer Darkness.

  54. shematwater said,

    March 19, 2010 at 1:51 pm

    Oh, and as to a different language, I have actually found that most of the terms we use actually do have the same meanings, we just give a greater detail to our doctrine. It is like you have the dictionary, while we have the encyclopedia.

  55. osbornekristen said,

    March 22, 2010 at 7:55 am

    Shem said, “Now, salvation is a garuntee to all people, except those who commit the unpardinable sin, as we are taught by Christ in the Bible.”

    This is NOT what Christ said in the Bible. He said that those WHO BELIEVE IN HIM shall not perish but have everlasting life. As Christians, we know that the unpardonable sin is to NOT believe in Him…….that is what blasphamy against the HS means. You are told about Jesus’ grace and don’t believe in it and reject him. That is not exactly what LDS believe. From what I understand, you believe that all folks will have a degree of salvation…..except those who once were LDS (having given a testimony of their belief in the church) and then leave the LDS faith and give up their testimony about it being the one true church. Isn’t that how you define the one unpardonable sin??

    Jesus has given us ALL the chance to BELIEVE in Him. He died once… for all. But, one MUST accept and believe in his work on the cross in order to have any degree of salvation. The bible makes this %100 clear. Those who reject him in this life will not be with Him in the next. They will perish and be apart from him forever. That is what hell is my friend.

  56. shematwater said,

    March 22, 2010 at 2:12 pm

    OSBORNE

    You have said exactly what I have said. The only difference is that you gave a definition to the unpardinable sin, and I did not. If you believe that the unpardonable sin is to not believe in Christ than everyone who has not committed it will still be in heaven, for they will all have had faith in him. What is the difference from what I said.

    No matter whose doctrine you look at the only people not making it to heaven and enjoying salvation are those who commit the unpardonable sin. This is why it is called the unpardonable sin, because it is the only thing that can keep you from salvation. What ever you believe that sin to be doesn’t matter for the purpose of what I was saying.

  57. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    March 22, 2010 at 4:03 pm

    Shem,

    You are not saying what Kristen is saying. Kristen is pointing out the false LDS belief that someone who never comes to faith in Jesus (never receives the gospel or a testimony in Jesus) will still go to a Kingdom in Heaven. Here is the LDS teaching about who goes where and why, after Judgment Day (Gospel Principles, Pages 271-272:

    “Inheriting a Place in a Kingdom of Glory. At the Final Judgment we will inherit a place in the kingdom for which we are prepared. The scriptures teach of three kingdoms of glory—the celestial kingdom, the terrestrial kingdom, and the telestial kingdom (see D&C 88:20–32)… The following are the kinds of lives we can choose to live and the kingdoms our choices will obtain for us…

    Telestial:
    These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)”

    Notice that those who go to the lowest Kingdom are going to a Kingdom of Glory! This teaching is despicable and so against what is taught in the Bible! Jesus declared that one must have faith in Him to go to the Kingdom of Heaven:

    “And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Mt 18:2-3

    “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” Jn 3:36

    “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Jn 3:16-18

    “But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” Re 21:8

    “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Mt 5:20

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Mt 7:21-23

    Everyone whose name is not written in the Book of Life:
    “And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Re 20:12-15

    To those who merely committed sins of omission, Jesus sends them to the very same domain as Satan:
    “Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Mt 25:41-46)

    I think that Kristen was speaking of the horrendous false teaching that most people will end up in a kingdom of glory–even those who never come to faith in Jesus.

    Kristen, is this what you meant?

  58. osbornekristen said,

    March 23, 2010 at 3:02 pm

    Absolutely! I have heard LDS members say that the atonement basically gives everyone entrance to at least some level of Heaven…..even if they reject Christ in this life. As Christians, we know that this is what blasphamy against the HS means……to reject the truth of God’s grace and to choose not to believe. It is tragic that LDS believe that folks have another chance to accept Christ in the next life. Yes, they will believe in him…..and yes, every knee will bow in the 2nd Coming……..but that will be because all will see Christ in his full GLORY and there will be no way anyone can doubt or deny his authority and power!! Those who reject him here on earth will face judgement because they will not have Christ to stand in their place. Thus, they will face an eternity apart from any/all part of God and his kingdom………..Hell.

    There is no place in the Bible that speaks of 2nd chances to accept or believe in Christ in the afterlife……..just the contrary (the story of the rich man and Lazarus).

  59. shematwater said,

    March 24, 2010 at 12:33 pm

    LDS WOMAN

    We have still said the same thing, and no matter how you try to get around it it is true.

    First: According to LDS doctrine only those who commit the unpardonable sin are cast out of all levels of heaven.
    According to the general Christian view only those who commit the unpardonable sin will be cast out of heaven.

    This is what has been stated by both of us. This is the basics of my statement. As I said, what the Unpardonable sin is does not matter to this basic concept. To you it is one thing, to us it is another, but to both it is the only thing that can keep you out of heaven.
    Your claim is that what I said was different because I believe the unpardonable sin to be something different than what you believe it to be. I agree with this statement. But it has no baring on what I said.

    Now, if you want to get into what the Bible says let us look at 1 John 3: 15. Here John tells us that “Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
    Now, Kristen quoted John 3: 16 where we are told the faithful will have everlasting life.
    Taking these two verse we can see that murderers do not gain eternal life, and are thus not among those who “believe.” Yet murder is not the unpardonable sin, but among those other sins that can be forgiven. If murder is pardonable, but murderers cannot have eternal life, where do they fit in? They are not among the saved believers, but they are not among the damned unbelievers. So what happens to them.

    In truth I really don’t care to get an answer to this last part of m post. I simply want you to consider the question. However, you can answer this question for me.
    Can you disagree with this statement: “The only people not admitted into heaven are those who commit the Unpardonable sin.”

  60. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    March 25, 2010 at 9:27 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    “First: According to LDS doctrine only those who commit the unpardonable sin are cast out of all levels of heaven. According to the general Christian view only those who commit the unpardonable sin will be cast out of heaven.”

    The Christian definition of the “unpardonable sin” is unbelief in Jesus. That is the only sin that will cause a person to dwell with Satan for eternity.

    Please define the “unpardonable sin” according to LDS doctrine.

  61. shematwater said,

    March 26, 2010 at 11:35 am

    LDSWOMAN

    You are still not getting the point. The definition does not matter. Put any definition you want, the basic concept of the Unpardonable sin is still the same. Can you honestly deny this? This is the point.

    My original statement that started this ridiculous argument was this: “Now, salvation is a garuntee to all people, except those who commit the unpardonable sin, as we are taught by Christ in the Bible.”
    I support this statement with Matthew 12: 31-32 “Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

    Now, without bothering with the definition of the unpardonable sin can you say that what I said does not agree with what Christ said in this passage?

  62. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    March 26, 2010 at 12:08 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    The definition does not matter. Put any definition you want, the basic concept of the Unpardonable sin is still the same. Can you honestly deny this? This is the point.”

    I can honestly deny what you are saying. How can you believe the definition does not matter? The difference is where billions and billions of people will spend eternity.

    According to Mormon prophets, the vast majority of people–billions and billions of people who denied Christ, will dwell in a kingdom of heaven:

    “Telestial Kingdom: These people did not receive the gospel or the testimony of Jesus either on earth or in the spirit world. They will suffer for their own sins in hell until after the Millennium, when they will be resurrected. “These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.” These people are as numerous as the stars in heaven and the sand on the seashore. They will be visited by the Holy Ghost but not by the Father or the Son. (See D&C 76:81–88, 103–6, 109.)” ( Gospel Principles, page 272)

    According to Jesus, the majority of people, will NOT be allowed into a kingdom of heaven:

    “Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. “(Mt 7:13-15)

    As far as the Matthew 12 passage: “And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.”

    Speaking a word against Jesus has nothing to do with whether or not you have faith in Him. The mission of the Holy Ghost is to bring someone to faith in Jesus. All who reject the Holy Ghost are all who refuse the gift that Jesus won for them–the forgiveness of all their sins.

    Remember what Jesus said?

    “And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them, 3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Mt 18:2-3

    If you can’t enter the kingdom of heaven unless you are converted, how do you explain LDS doctrine that claims billions and billions of people who are never converted will dwell in a kingdom of heaven–a kingdom of glory?

  63. catzgalore said,

    March 26, 2010 at 4:43 pm

    Shem you say that the definition of the “unpardonable sin” doesn’t matter.

    What about the definition of “heaven”?

    And still you think that LDS and Christians use the same meanings. Neither of those terms have the same meaning for Christians as they do for LDS. While it is true that both say that all will enter heaven except those that commit the “unpardonable sin“… we mean two VERY DIFFERENT things.

  64. shematwater said,

    March 27, 2010 at 12:03 pm

    CATS and LDSWOMAN

    You are both simply being ridiculous. You cannot handle the idea that something might actually be similar between the LDS church and what you believe so you have to do your best to twist everything I say to make things as different as possible.

    There is a reason I used the words I did. That reason is simple. I was addressing a concept that is exactly the same for all of us, one that is clearly taught in the Bible. I am not getting into details, only the basic concept. You, however, cannot discuss basic concepts, because it makes us too similar for your comfort.

    The definition of the Unpardonable sin is very important when we are discussing the eternal welfare of souls. But we are not discussing the eternal welfare of souls, at least I am not. I am discussing semantics, the meaning of words. I am comparing to statements and telling whether they carry the same meaning or not. This has nothing to do with doctrine or belief, but with literary analysis. In the contexts of literary analysis the definition of the Unpardonable sin does not matter, only the concept.

    Now, if you can honestly say that you the words I used, and only the words I used, do not carry the same basic meaning as the passage from Matthew than you are disagreeing with the concept that there is only one sin that keeps people out of heaven. It is as simple as that.
    However, this is not what you are actually saying. What you are actually say is this: You do agree that the words I used have the same basic meaning as the passage in Matthew, however you are unable to take just those words, but must add to them other words so that you are able to disagree with what I am saying, as you cannot stand the idea of agreeing with a Mormon.

  65. echoechoecho said,

    March 27, 2010 at 9:03 pm

    Nothing would make anyone that posts here happier than the LDS having this doctrine in common with Christianity. But where definitions differ, there is no harmony between this LDS and Christian teaching on the unpardonable sin. We need to be careful to paint an accurate picture. Yes, we agree with the LDS that there is only one sin that keeps people out of heaven. But because the LDS defines the unpardonable sin differently than we do, it is a matter of eternal life and death for souls. That’s no little matter.

  66. catzgalore said,

    March 28, 2010 at 9:26 am

    I said…
    While it is true that both say that all will enter heaven except those that commit the “unpardonable sin“… we mean two VERY DIFFERENT things.

    You replied…
    You do agree that the words I used have the same basic meaning as the passage in Matthew, however you are unable to take just those words, but must add to them other words so that you are able to disagree with what I am saying, as you cannot stand the idea of agreeing with a Mormon.

    Yes, I agree, ON THE SURFACE, the WORDS are the same. If words ALWAYS meant the SAME THING then we might be okay.

    We are out at sea, in a boat. There is a hole in the boat. It could be a tiny hole, letting in only a bit of water, or a gaping one, letting in a lot. They are both holes in your boat, but one is easily patched and you will reach the shore, but the other will swamp the boat, sinking it to the bottom of the sea. The words are the same, “there’s a hole in the boat!” but they certainly don’t mean the same thing. Wouldn’t you want to define what “hole” means in this case?

    One evening my then 4 year old came rushing into the living room saying, “the popcorn is popping!”. My mother said, “yes, it’s popping!” and turned back to the movie we were watching. My daughter was persistent in telling us it was popping until we realized she might mean something different than we thought she did. We went into the kitchen to find that my 2 year old had somehow gotten the bowl out from under the air popper and was contentedly munching out of the bowl– and the popcorn was popping EVERYWHERE! We certainly didn’t mean the same thing by “the popcorn is popping”!

    So it becomes important what your words specifically MEAN. Yout church teaches that David the Psalmist committed the unpardonable sin and therefore will not be able to spend eternity with the Lord, yet he will be in “heaven”. I must conclude that your definition of “heaven” is different, because to me “heaven” without the presence of the Lord would not be “heaven”. Also that your definition of “unpardonable sin” must be different, because it is so clear that David loves the Lord, and knows he would be nothing without the Lord…and that he repented of his sins… and God thought of David as a man after His own heart…

    So I can no longer take your statements at face value, knowing that you as a Mormon could mean something different than I as a Christian do. It makes it difficult to discuss “basic concepts” because they don’t mean the same thing even though the words are the same. I know you see what I am saying.

    This is no small thing, Shem. The statement, “what keeps us out of heaven is the unpardonable sin” we can agree on. However, we don’t mean the same thing when we say it!

  67. catzgalore said,

    March 28, 2010 at 11:57 am

    Shem… you said
    I am comparing to statements and telling whether they carry the same meaning or not. This has nothing to do with doctrine or belief, but with literary analysis. In the contexts of literary analysis the definition of the Unpardonable sin does not matter, only the concept.

    This paragraph makes NO SENSE at all to me.

  68. osbornekristen said,

    March 28, 2010 at 12:31 pm

    Agreed….Echoe! It would make all of us here 100% thrilled if LDS shared doctrine in common with us! None of us take any joy at all in pointing out the differences……..on the contrary. It breaks our hearts that much of the LDS doctrine is so outside of what God’s word teaches.

    The definition of “unpardonable sin” is extremely important……and IS what we were discussing in this thread. Our definitions are NOT similar in the least. Again, LDS teach that ALL folks gain some sort of eternal life in God’s kingdom because of the atonement…..regardless of their lack of faith/rejection of Christ here on earth. Do you deny this fact Shem???

    Rejection of Christ……..and never accepting him on earth……IS the only Unpardonable Sin. LDS doctrine and Christian doctrine DO NOT agree on the subject!! I know this to be fact because I have dicussed this face to face with LDS members who are 100% sure that their loved ones who died as non-believers are in God’s kingdom and will have another chance to accept Christ after death. This is not what the Bible teaches. Your church is filling folks with false hope for their unsaved loved ones. It is denying the words of Christ. It is causing LDS mothers, fathers, grandparents and siblings to believe that their unbelieving family members will have a second chance…..possibly causing them not to share with them the TRUTH of Christ’s message repeatedly because they think that their rejection of it on earth with not send them to an eternity apart from God…….hell.

    Again, the bible is VERY clear on the subject of forgiveness for ALL sins…..reguardless of their intensity……….except for the rejection of Christ which cause one’s sins not to be covered or pardoned=judgement=damnation.

    Once again, in common LDS fashion, you are taking once verse completely out of context (1 John 3: 15) and basing your doctrine on it. It seems that much of your church’s faith rests on single verses that are plucked out of their frame of reference. Instead of reading an entire chapter or group of verses, you pinpoint one phrase and create a concrete definition for it…….often resting a huge piece of your church’s teaching upon it. As Christians, we look at God’s word in its entirety…….as a solid complete piece of work……one that must be read as a whole piece of literature. I believe that every statement in the Bible is true and necessary……but each “piece” must be looked at in context and in light of the writers’ purpose and frame of reference.

    You wish to ignore passages that speak of God’s forgiveness and divine protection of murderers. You also choose to ignore that some heroes of the faith, those you claim were “perfect” in their earthly existence, were murders as well (ie. Paul, Moses). You make excuses for Smith’s hidden pistol killing 2 men. Yet, you stake all your bets on murders not having salvation with God the Father on one single verse……….that makes a lot of sense.

    If you read about folks who took someone’s life in the bible…….you will see that God never left them. Instead, he forgave them……cleansed them…….and in many cases blessed their newly forgiven lives and gave them major roles in His work here on earth.

    Paul admits that it was he that ordered and helped carry out the murder of Stephen. He was a wicked dude. Yes, he was following Roman law and thought he was doing the right thing by killing Christians……but does that make it right in the eyes of God? No! Abortionists kill babies and claim that they are just following the law…..but I’ll be you consider them to be murders! Are killings justified if folks believe that they are simply following government or religious orders?? Moses killed a man out of anger when he saw him beating an Israelite. It was not self-defense, it was human rage that led him to murder. We can’t go around killing everyone we see who is unjust or wicked. He knew he had done wrong…..ran away and hid in the desert. But, God forgave him and used him to set his people. God completely forgave David for his murder as well……….at least that is what David thought as written in Psalms. And God’s word does tell us that David was a man after God’s own heart…….so he must of known God pretty well. Jesus was sent through the line of David. If David wasn’t even “good enough” to make it to the Father’s Kingdom, why was he “good enough” to serve as the lineage of Messiah?? Now, that is ridiculous! What about the protection God gave Cain??

    Read in contect of the chapter verse in 1 John is talking about truly loving others. It is refering to the difference in being able to love as a believer in Christ (having a Christlike love for others) vs. being of the world, not having Christ in your heart and attempting to love. Satan is referred to as “a murderer” in the NT.

    John 8:44 “Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.”

    The passage 1 john 8-10 speaks of those who are God’s children vs. the Devil’s children. Those who are not God’s children can’t love like those who have Christ living within them………thus they have hatred in their hearts……making them like the “murderer,” Satan, who we know “has no eternal life within him.” The word “murderer” is reminding us of the heart of the evil one and that those without Christ in their hearts are like him…….lacking eternal life and the capacity to love like Christ.

    If you wanna pluck 1 John 3:15 out of context… as you have done….. then you need to believe that all of us who have every hated someone are murderers and will be kept out of the Father’s Kingdom as well. Do you believe that too?

    The big question you need to ask yourself is what gives one eternal life (aka entrance to any part of God’s kingdom). Does one’s belief in this life have anything to do with eternal security or is belief just an added bonus that gains us some kind of extra reward or step-up in God’s Kingdom??

    Jesus said Believe, Believe Believe!! He said that is the way to eternal life with him. Think about it………is that what your church teaches???

  69. shematwater said,

    March 29, 2010 at 8:53 am

    You people are all rather funny to read, but i don’t have time to read everything today. However, I am glad to say that you have finally agreed with what I was saying, even though you really don’t seem to want to admit it.

    Echo: “Yes, we agree with the LDS that there is only one sin that keeps people out of heaven.”
    Catz: “While it is true that both say that all will enter heaven except those that commit the “unpardonable sin”

    This is all I was saying.

    However, I think I have discovered the real problem here. Your basic thought here is that I am LDS and so no matter what I say it has to carry with it all the LDS doctrine that you can put with it. You cannot conceive the idea that I might actually say something without the intention of teaching LDS doctrine. So, when I say that the concept of the “unpardonable sin” is the same for both of us you cannot understand that I am literally meaning only the “concept” but must assume that I am meaning all the details of LDS doctrine. It makes things very frustrating when people assume what you mean by a given phrase, even after you have explained your true meaning.

    Let me explain again: I made the statement in the way I did because I wanted the wording to be agreable to both parties of the conversation. I did not want to bring with it all the details of LDS doctrine. I prefer to agree with people as much as possible, and I was able to with the wording I gave. That is all. I gave only the basics because it is something we can both agree on and I thought, obviously in error, that you might see this as well and not side track the conversation.

    Now, I was a little impolite in my last post, however, I think that what I said is still true. Because I am “Mormon” you will always assume I am bringing LDS doctrine to every phrase I type and thus you will always feel it necessary to find some way to disagree.
    I think that if I made the statement that “The Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are one God” you would disagree with me, declaring that the Bible does not teach this. It doesn’t matter that you have said the exact same phrase in the past, or that the Bible states this. All that matters is that I am a Mormon and thus you cannot agree with what I say.

    Oh, and CATZ

    While I agree that there is a difference between a small whole that can be patched and a large one that will end in sinking the boat. However, if we can’t agree that the whole exists does it really matter how big it is?

  70. catzgalore said,

    March 29, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    You quoted Echo and I…
    Echo: “Yes, we agree with the LDS that there is only one sin that keeps people out of heaven.”
    Catz: “While it is true that both say that all will enter heaven except those that commit the “unpardonable sin”

    In order for me to agree, you had to leave out half of what I said… WE MEAN TWO VERY DIFFERENT THINGS.

    Here’s what I mean by that statement: If one does not accept the fact that Jesus’ sacrifice paid the full price for their sins, if they believe that they must do something to earn their way, they will not dwell in God’s presence forever.

    Can I assume that is what YOU mean when you make that statement? Your Heaven is different, your unpardonable sin is different. So how can the statement mean the same thing????

    and as for the hole in the boat… I started my little story with “We are out at sea, in a boat. THERE IS A HOLE IN THE BOAT.”

    You can try to play word games forever, Shem, but what is the point? My faith is not built on “literary analysis” or semantics. It is built on Jesus Christ.

  71. echoechoecho said,

    March 29, 2010 at 8:52 pm

    Shem,

    It’s not the concept that matters. It is what that concept means that truly matters. What matters is where souls spend eternity.

  72. osbornekristen said,

    March 30, 2010 at 7:10 am

    The problem is…….we TOTALLY disagree on what committing the “Unpardonable Sin” means……and that means everything!

  73. shematwater said,

    March 30, 2010 at 4:32 pm

    CATZ

    Did I ever say my faith was built on literary analysis? No. I said I was using literary analysis as a tool for discussion. Very different.

    As to the hole in the boat, my point is that your side was arguing a different argument than what I was saying. You were arguing over whether the whole was able to be patched or not, while I was simply stating that it existed.

    Basically you were saying one of us was calling the whole small and the other was saying it was large and claiming the two opinions were the same. However what was really being said is more along these lines (I am a play write, so I am giving a brief script.)

    Passenger 1 (P1): Look at that hole. It’s huge. We’re all going to sink.

    Passenger 2 (P2): Looks fairly small to me. I think we can patch it fairly easily.

    (the next day, after an argument)

    P1: We will never agree on anything.

    P2: We agree there is a hole in the boat.

    P1: No we don’t. You said it is a small hole, I think it is huge. That is not the same thing.

    P2: But we both agree there is a hole.

    P1: But we disagree on size, and that is all that matters.

    P2: But there is still a hole. That is all I am saying. Can you really disagree that there is a hole there.

    P1: Yes, because I think it is big and you don’t.

    Anyway, you get the point of what I am saying.

    ECHO

    What the concept truly means matters for every soul’s eternal welfare. I will agree with this. However, I was not discussing our eternal welfare. I was discussing a concept. What the concept means is irrelevant if we do not understand what the concept is. This is my point.
    We can differ on the details of the concept, and I am all for it as I really don’t like your version. However, I never once claimed we could. All I said is that the concept is in the Bible, because it is.


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