About a month ago the 12 and 13 year old’s were taught that “Repentance is a Blessing.” The Lesson Manual tells the teacher to explain the reason why repentance is such a blessing:
“Explain that repentance is the process Heavenly Father has given us for ‘erasing’ our sins. Heavenly Father wants us to return to live with him after this life, but no unclean, or sinful, person can live with him (see Moses 6:57). Heavenly Father knows that everyone will make mistakes and commit sins while on the earth, so he has given us a way to become clean again after we have sinned. This is repentance.” (Preparing for Exaltation, Lesson 12: Repentance Is a Blessing)
The Lesson teaches these children the many requirements to be met before they can gain forgiveness of a sin. This “process” has several aspects to it, but today I wish to discuss Joseph Smith’s revelation that a person gains forgiveness by keeping the commandments. D&C 1:32: “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
Testing the words of this LDS prophet with those of our Savior reveals the truth. Jesus revealed that doing all things which are commanded of you is simply what God requires of you, and is your duty! (Luke 17:9-10) When you sin (fail to keep God’s commands) you incur a debt, and need Heavenly Father’s forgiveness. Doing what is expected of you (keeping the commandments) cannot gain forgiveness for a debt. This merely prevents you from piling on more debt.
Here’s an illustration to explain what I mean:
It’s expected that you will pay your monthly bills. Last month you used part of your bill money to go on vacation and so you couldn’t pay all your bills. You used your credit card to pay for these bills and so incurred a debt on your credit card. This month you paid all your bills. You call up your credit card company and say “I paid all my bills this month so please forgive my debt from last month”. Do you think your credit card company will accept this offer as payment for your debt? Heavenly Father also, will not accept as payment for your sin debt, the works He already requires of you.
So how does a sin debt get paid? The writer of Hebrews testifies that without the shedding of blood there can be no forgiveness of sins (Hebrews 9:22). In the Old Testament we read that God’s people were required to offer animal sacrifices as payment for their sin. These animal sacrifices had to be perfect, without blemish.
But even if you gave your life’s blood as an offering to pay for your sins, your offering would be rejected by Heavenly Father. Why? Because you are not a perfect sacrifice! You are not without blemish. You are not without sin. Instead, you are in debt to God for all your sins. On Judgment Day, every single sin you’ve ever committed will be judged by Jesus, for all to see (Ecclesiastes 12:14). Anyone found unclean (without blemish) will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
But take heart, you are not without hope! Jesus shed His blood and paid the price for the sins of the entire world. “But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God” (Hebrews 10:12). Jesus was a perfect sacrifice—without any sin debt. Heavenly Father accepted Jesus’ payment for the sins of the world and forgave every person’s sin debt. In your place, Jesus offered His life as a perfect sacrifice and paid your debt.
There is only one way to “receive” the complete forgiveness that has already been won for you, and guess what? It isn’t through your efforts at trying to keep God’s commands. You can only receive forgiveness by believing that Jesus’ blood covers your sin debt. The moment you have faith in this, you will receive complete forgiveness of all your sins (past, present and future)! Jesus loves us and washed us from our sins in his own blood. (Revelation 1:5) Believe it and receive it! The Apostle Peter testified: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins” (Acts 10:43).
Once you know just how much you have been forgiven, you can freely live a life of thanksgiving! You can keep Heavenly Fathers commandments out of gratitude and love, not out of obligation or trying to gain forgiveness and eternal life!
Click here to go to my Page titled “The LDS Process of Repentance”:
Link to LDS Lesson: https://www.lds.org/manual/preparing-for-exaltation-teachers-manual/lesson-12-repentance-is-a-blessing?lang=eng
Additional Testimony of the Bold Truth:
Debt to God
Jesus:
– Matthew 6:12
Sacrifice for Sin
Heavenly Father:
– Leviticus 4:1-5
Works Judged
Jesus:
– Matthew 12:36
Forgiveness Through Blood
The Apostle Paul:
– Colossians 1:14
– Ephesians 1:7
– Romans 3:24-25
– Romans 5:18-19
John the Beloved:
– Revelation 7:14
– Hebrews 9:12-15
The Apostle Peter:
– 1 Peter 1:18-19
Substitute Payment
The Prophet Isaiah:
– Isaiah 53:4-12
The Apostle Paul:
– Galatians 3:10-13
The Apostle Peter:
– 1 Peter 3:18
World’s Sin Paid
John the Baptist:
– John 1:29
John the Beloved:
– 1 John 2:2
Thankful Obedience
The Apostle Paul:
– 1 Corinthians 15:56-58
Latter-day Saint Woman 
shematwater said,
May 17, 2010 at 9:02 am
On this I have to comment, as you have not understood the words of the prophets.
You quote D&C 1: 32, but you give a false interpretation. The verse states “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
You talk about how keeping the commandments will not pay the debt, but this verse does not say it will. It says you must repent and keep the commandments. In other words, you must pay your debt, and you must not gain anymore debt.
It is made possible for us to pay our debt through the atonement of Christ. Because of what he did we can repent, and thus pay our debt. But if we pay our debt, and then simple incure more debt, what good does it do us. We must pay the debt, and then we must remain out of debt.
This is what is meant in D&C 1: 32. Thus you analogy is not accurate.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
May 17, 2010 at 2:29 pm
Shem, you wrote:
“On this I have to comment, as you have not understood the words of the prophets. You quote D&C 1: 32, but you give a false interpretation. The verse states “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” You talk about how keeping the commandments will not pay the debt, but this verse does not say it will. It says you must repent and keep the commandments. In other words, you must pay your debt, and you must not gain anymore debt. It is made possible for us to pay our debt through the atonement of Christ. Because of what he did we can repent, and thus pay our debt.”
Shem, just how many quotes do I need to provide in order to prove that I accurately portray LDS doctrine?
LDS prophets and apostles claim that keeping the commandments IS how a person pays their debt to sin AND how they gain forgiveness. Because Jesus paid your debt of sin to Heavenly Father, your sin debt has merely been re-financed. Now you owe your sin debt to Jesus and not to Heavenly Father. The “terms” that Jesus has set as payment “are to repent and keep His commandments”.
By far the best illustration of this foundational LDS teaching is this “parable” given by Boyd K. Packer:
“The mediator turned then to the debtor. ‘If I pay your debt, will you accept me as your creditor?’
“‘Oh yes, yes,’ cried the debtor. ‘You save me from prison and show mercy to me.’ “‘Then,’ said the benefactor, ‘you will pay the debt to me and I will set the terms. It will not be easy, but it will be possible. I will provide a way. You need not go to prison.’
“And so it was that the creditor was paid in full. He had been justly dealt with. No contract had been broken. “The debtor, in turn, had been extended mercy. Both laws stood fulfilled. Because there was a mediator, justice had claimed its full share, and mercy was fully satisfied” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1977, 79–80; or Ensign, May 1977, 54–55).
Our sins are our spiritual debts. Without Jesus Christ, who is our Savior and Mediator, we would all pay for our sins by suffering spiritual death. But because of Him, if we will keep His terms, which are to repent and keep His commandments, we may return to live with our Heavenly Father. “It is wonderful that Christ has provided us a way to be healed from our sins.” “Chapter 12: The Atonement,” Gospel Principles, (2009),59–66
This foundational LDS parable establishes that you pay your sin debt by keeping the commandments and through repentance. As far as gaining forgiveness for any new debt you incur, that also is paid by your repentance and, one aspect of repentance is keeping the commandments. Do you really think I need to re-post comments showing that I thoroughly understand that “keeping the commandments” is one of the steps in the LDS Process of Repentance?
Shem, you also wrote:
“But if we pay our debt, and then simple incure more debt, what good does it do us. We must pay the debt, and then we must remain out of debt. This is what is meant in D&C 1: 32. Thus you analogy is not accurate.”
If you “must remain out of debt” how’s that going for you? How many days go by in which you never incur more debt by sinning?
shematwater said,
May 18, 2010 at 9:45 am
LDSWOMAN
I really don’t care how many quotes you give. If you continually give the wrong interpretation to their meaning you will continue to show your lack of understanding.
True and complete repentance only occurs when we fully cast off sin. This is true. However, keeping the commandments is not repentance in and of itself. It is the result of true repentance. If I repent of a sin the result will be that I no longer commit that sin.
This is what I am talking about, and what you fail to understand about the LDS doctrine. As I said, repentance is the paying of the debt. True and complete repentance will result in us not incuring more debt.
And your personal attacks are not appreciated. Trying to discourage me is not a tactic of God. I know my sins, and I know the process I must complete to have them erased. I also know what progress I have made in that process. But I have never claimed to have acheived this perfect and total repentance that is the desire of my heart. I have simply explained what the doctrine is regarding it.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
May 18, 2010 at 12:22 pm
Shem, you wrote:
“True and complete repentance only occurs when we fully cast off sin. This is true. However, keeping the commandments is not repentance in and of itself. It is the result of true repentance. If I repent of a sin the result will be that I no longer commit that sin. This is what I am talking about, and what you fail to understand about the LDS doctrine. As I said, repentance is the paying of the debt. True and complete repentance will result in us not incuring more debt. “
Your words disagree with those of President Kimball’s. Am I to believe that your interpretation of LDS repentance should be given more authority than those of Mormon Prophets?
Here is President Kimball’s definition of repentance:
“Repentance means not only to convict yourselves of the horror of the sin, but to confess it, abandon it, and restore to all who have been damaged to the total extent possible; then spend the balance of your lives trying to live the commandments of the Lord so he can eventually pardon you and cleanse you” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200).”
Shem, you also wrote:
“And your personal attacks are not appreciated. Trying to discourage me is not a tactic of God. I know my sins, and I know the process I must complete to have them erased. I also know what progress I have made in that process. But I have never claimed to have acheived this perfect and total repentance that is the desire of my heart.”
Oh Shem, I am not trying to discourage you. I am trying to point you to the Savior who has already erased your sins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Through the power of the Holy Spirit who lives inside of me, I have been ordained as Christ’s Ambassador, to proclaim to you what the Savior of the world has already accomplished through His Atonement:
“To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
Please believe me that I was not attacking you when I asked “If you “must remain out of debt” how’s that going for you? How many days go by in which you never incur more debt by sinning?” I fully admit to you and the world that there is not an hour that goes by in which I don’t sin against my holy God. No matter how hard I try, I am a sinner through and through.
My very specific purpose in asking you about your sin was truly driven by my desire for you to give up on yourself and turn to your Savior. I was trying to “bring” you to Christ by convicting you of your sin. The insidiousness of Mormon doctrine is that it causes you to believe you just have to work harder to obtain any blessing from God–that you can be worthy, that many ARE worthy through their works. But what God truly wants you to do is to look at all He commands of you—and to look in a mirror and see that you AREN’T worthy. God wants you to see just how far you fall short of what He commands you to do. One of the reasons that God gave us His commands was so we would see just how sinful we are. The Apostle Paul explained:
“Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” (Galatians 3:21-24)
“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.” (Romans 3:19)
You will never erase your own sins through the LDS process of repentance—no one can! That is the entire point of this Post. There is only one way to erase your sins and that is through the shed blood of a perfect sacrifice. Jesus has already shed His blood for you and Heavenly Father has already forgiven every single sin you have ever committed or will ever commit.
Compare the words of LDS prophets and apostles with God’s:
The Prophet Isaiah prophesied: “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.” (Isaiah 53:4-9)
The Apostle Peter testified: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)
The Apostle John testified: “And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood” (Revelation 1:5).
The Apostle Paul testified: “Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:6-8)
The requirements of the LDS Process of Repentance are impossible. Those who “claim to have achieved this perfect and total repentance” are merely pretending—to themselves or to others. I am very thankful that you are honest with yourself and have never claimed to have achieved perfect and total repentance. It gives me hope for you.
shematwater said,
May 18, 2010 at 1:45 pm
LDSWOMAN
What you said was a personal attack. It was intended to force me into desparing that I will ever be able to reconcile myself to God through the repentance process. That was the intent. It seems that the best method you have in achieving your ultimate goal of drawing me away from my faith is to cast doubt and despare into my life. I do not appreciate it.
Every time I have talked of the LDS doctrine of repentance you have brought up the same thing. “If this is what you beleive how well are you doing?”
As to the doctrine, after considering things a little more I realize I have fallen into a common error of mine. Words are funny things, and their meaning will always vary slightly with every person.
I believe that the D&C quote and the quote from President Kimball are in complete harmony with each other, and with me. The problem is that slightly variant understanding of the words.
In the D&C I think it is waying what I said. To gain forgiveness we must repent and obey. Why? Well, in D&C 82: 7 we read that “but unto that soul who sinneth shall the bformer sins return, saith the Lord your God.” Thus if we sin we undo the repentance we accomplished.
President Kimball, speaking some hundred or so years later, simply combined the two idea into one to make it easier for the common person to understand. We must abandon sin, because no matter how often we repent, if we keep sinning that repentance will be undone.
Thus, to me the interpretation you gave of the D&C quote was in accurate, because that quote was not addressing all the contingencies and aspects of the repentance doctrine. By itself it still carries the meaning that I explained, but when taken with other scriptures the full doctrine becomes clear, and we see why President Kimball explained it in the way he did.
Also, President Kimball does not say that complete obedience is required, only the honest effort of complete obedience. I still say that complete obedience is the result of complete repentance.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
May 18, 2010 at 5:58 pm
“What you said was a personal attack. It was intended to force me into desparing that I will ever be able to reconcile myself to God through the repentance process. That was the intent. It seems that the best method you have in achieving your ultimate goal of drawing me away from my faith is to cast doubt and despare into my life. I do not appreciate it. Every time I have talked of the LDS doctrine of repentance you have brought up the same thing. “If this is what you beleive how well are you doing?”
Shem, I fully admit that my words were “intended to force [you] into desparing that [you] will never be able to reconcile [your]self to God through the repentance process. That was the intent.”
But, it was NOT a “personal attack”. My heart goes out to you Shem. I understand the guilt that you harbor from your sins, because I have felt the same. Just like you, I sincerely attempted to obtain forgiveness through the LDS process of repentance. You are only 25 years old. I did not hear the true message that Jesus had already gained my forgiveness until I was 36.
My life was pure misery because I knew my heart. I knew how sinful I was. Every day I tried to follow the commandments and every day I failed. I was a Mormon back when Spencer Kimball was the prophet. I trusted in and followed his words. He told me that trying was not sufficient. You say that “President Kimball does not say that complete obedience is required, only the honest effort of complete obedience.” But Shem, I studied his every word. You are a Mormon during President’s Hinckley and Monson’s time. They tell you that your honest effort at complete obedience is sufficient. But, Kimball never said that. In the Miracle of Forgiveness, he claimed:
“Trying is Not Sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin… It is normal for children to try. They fall and get up numerous times before they can be certain of their footing. But adults, who have gone through these learning periods, must determine what they will do, then proceed to do it. To “try” is weak. To “do the best I can” is not strong…Page 170: Those who feel that they can sin and be forgiven and then return to sin and be forgiven again and again must straighten out their thinking. Each previously forgiven sin is added to the new one and the whole gets to be a heavy load.”… Pages 164-165.
Shem, have you ever noticed in the New Testament that it was the “sinners” who believed and followed Jesus? The reason it was the sinful people who followed and believed in Him was because they knew they were sinners and they knew they were lost without this Savior who loved and saved sinful people like them. Jesus came to save the sinners, not the righteous. Anyone who believes they can be worthy in and of themselves won’t believe they need a Savior who came to be worthy for them.
Shem, I truly do want your load to be so heavy that you can no longer bear it. Only then will you turn to your Savior who was punished for every one of your sins. He has already paid the penalty for your sins and gained your forgiveness. What He desires from you is to have faith that He has gained for you what you can never gain for yourself. He knows that the moment you place your faith in Him, you will love Him with every fiber of your being. We love because He first loved us. We forgive others because He first forgave us. We show mercy to those who don’t deserve mercy because He first showed mercy to us.
Jesus pleads to you: “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.” Mt 11:28-30
It is when you find rest for your soul through Jesus that you can freely give your life: “Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:5-6)
shematwater said,
May 19, 2010 at 8:50 am
LDSWOMAN
It is a personal attack, no matter how you try to hide it well meaning words. I am sorry that you felt the way you did, but I feel no dispare in the doctrine of repentance. I have felt only hope and joy, and the love of God. I have delt with many things, and I continue to do so. The problem is that in your way I see no true cleansing for myself. All I see is a shadow of a cleansing.
You talk of Christ having paid for sins and cleansed us. But you all I have ever herd from anybody in the christian world is that we don’t need to be personally cleanse because God is only going to look at Christ and see his cleanliness, and based on this let us in. This gives me no hope. It is a hallow offer.
The doctrine of Repentence gives me hope that when I stand at that judgement bar God will not have to look at Christ to see cleanliness. I will be able to stand tall as he looks directly at me, and proclaims “Well done,” for I will be clean.
I still need Christ, and I will always need him. For I cannot be cleansed by myself. But my hope is not simply that I will enter heaven, but that I will be clean when I do so.
President Kimball is in perfect harmony with all the other prophets, and with what I have said. He is speaking of those who “try” and then say “Well, I gave it my best shot, and that is good enough.” This is not acceptable. You do not know when you have done all you can, and so must keeping doing more. You must keep progressing. If declare that you have a limit to what you can do and never work to go beyond that you have not repented. This is what President Kimball is saying.
When I say an honest effort, I am not talking about people who rationalize their sin with “I tried” or “I did the best I could.” I am talking about those who reach the point where they feel like saying these things, but instead keep pushing forward. I am talking about the people who hold in their hearts that if they keep pushing forward, regardless of how difficult it is, they will make it eventually. When I say an honest effort, I mean those who are honest with themselves, admitting that they don’t know how far they can go, and so they will continue to move until they die. These are they who have repented. These are the people who have done all they can to stand against sin. These are they who are saved by the grace of God, for they have done all they can do.
President Kimball was address those who would rationalize their failure, not to those who truly gave all they had and yet still failed.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
May 19, 2010 at 12:52 pm
Shem, you wrote:
” The problem is that in your way I see no true cleansing for myself. All I see is a shadow of a cleansing. You talk of Christ having paid for sins and cleansed us. But you all I have ever herd from anybody in the christian world is that we don’t need to be personally cleanse because God is only going to look at Christ and see his cleanliness, and based on this let us in. This gives me no hope. It is a hallow offer. The doctrine of Repentence gives me hope that when I stand at that judgement bar God will not have to look at Christ to see cleanliness. I will be able to stand tall as he looks directly at me, and proclaims “Well done,” for I will be clean.”
You sure know how to break a girl’s heart. I have prayed over and over for you, especially this past day. I so desire that you would come to faith in Jesus and love Him with all your heart. I am saddened that you have rejected Christ’s precious gift of forgiveness.
If any Christian has ever told you that you don’t “need to be personally cleansed” then I am here to tell you God’s truth. You must be personally cleansed from every sin. If you stand before God with even one sin remaining, Jesus will send you to an eternity in hell with Satan.
When Jesus died on the cross, he “took away” the sins of the entire world. John the Baptist proclaimed about Jesus:
“Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)
It is a done deal. You have already been personally cleansed from every sin. But you don’t believe it, so you reject this precious gift that your Savior gave His life’s blood for. Because of your unbelief, Jesus proclaims that you are condemned already:
“That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:15-18)
You desire to stand before God on Judgment day, having cleansed yourself so that “God will not have to look at Christ to see cleanliness.” Because of this desire, every single sin that you have ever committed will be piled upon you. You will not be “clean”.
There is only one way to be cleansed from all sin—through faith that Jesus’ blood has already cleansed you. It is the ONLY way that God will say to you: “Well done”. Without faith, it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). Those who have faith, please God. You do not have faith that Jesus has already cleansed you. Your desire to stand before God having “cleansed yourself” is the very reason that you are still “in your sins”. Every single sin you have ever committed will still be with you when you are judged by Jesus.
echoechoecho said,
May 19, 2010 at 2:15 pm
Hebrews 11:6 “Without faith, it is impossible to please God”
Shem, you don’t have the kind of faith that pleases God. Therefore ALL your works whether good and bad will be rejected in the judgement. You will despair of all your works there if you don’t despair of them here. A faith that trusts in human flesh does not please God. A faith that trusts in Jesus’ blood is a faith that pleases God:
Here is a faith that trusts in Jesus’ blood:
Not what these hands have done
Can save this guilty soul
Not what this toiling flesh has borne
Can make my spirit whole
Not what I feel or do
can give me peace with God
Not all my prayers and sighs and tears
can bear this awful load
Thy work alone, O Christ
Can ease this weight of sin
Thy blood alone, O Lamb of God
Can give me peace within
Thy love to me, O God
Not mine, O Lord, to thee
can rid me of this dark unrest
And set my spirit free
Thy grace alone, O God
To me can pardon speak
Thy power alone, O Son of God
Can this sore bondage break
I bless the Christ of God
I rest on Love divine
And with unfaltering lip and heart
I call this Savior mine!
(“What Jesus Means to Me” by Herman W Gockel, pages 22-23)
shematwater said,
May 20, 2010 at 12:03 pm
It is so nice that you can tell me what my faith is, Echo. I never would have known without you.
Forgive the sarcasm, but I know my faith, and if you or LDSWOMAN would actually listen to what I said you might actually have a slight understanding yourself.
I have never claimed that it is my actions alone that save, nor have I claimed that I can do even one thing on my own that will messure up to anything in regards to what Christ did for me.
You guys are so focused on the one idea of works that you ignore everything I say about faith and grace. You cannot even conceive that a person can believe fully in all three. It has to be either by faith through grace or by works. If I believe in works I cannot believe in faith through grace. If I accept faith through grace I cannot believe in works. This is not an either or situation. I believe in faith through grace, for without faith nothing I do will please God. However, even with faith, if I have not the works I am still dead, as James tells us in the second chapter of his epistle.
Repentance is the perfect union of Faith and Works, which are then brought into the presence of God through grace. All are needed. If one is lacking we are condemned.
The description of God’s reaction to cleanliness that I gave is exactly what many people have said to me. It is the logical conclusion of the doctrine. As such I cannot accept it. I am not rejecting any gift from Christ. I am accepting every gift that he gives. But this is not a gift I see as bing given. I do not see it in the Bible, or any other scripture. This is why I reject it. Not because I do not have faith in Christ, but because I do have faith in him.
echoechoecho said,
May 20, 2010 at 10:17 pm
Shem said: “It is so nice that you can tell me what my faith is, Echo. I never would have known without you.”
The Bible outlines what kind of faith you have and how we can recognize it. You would come to see that what I am saying is true if you got your doctrine from the Bible rather than looking for your doctrine outside of the Bible.
shematwater said,
May 22, 2010 at 1:31 pm
ECHO
I get my doctrine from the Bible. There is very few doctrines of the LDS church that I cannot find within the Bible. The ones that aren’t there are simply logical extensions of what is. As such I can teach the doctrine of the LDS church using just the Bible. That is not the problem. The problem is that you see things differently than I do. You use definitions that I do not, nor do I see the logical use of them. You can argue all you want, but everything I believe can be supported through the Bible.
echoechoecho said,
May 24, 2010 at 9:54 pm
Shem said: “As such I can teach the doctrine of the LDS church using just the Bible. That is not the problem. The problem is that you see things differently than I do.”
The Bible sees things differently than you do too.
The Joseph Smith Translation says God justifies NOT the ungodly, the Bible says that God justifies the ungodly. That was Joseph Smith’s “simply logical extension” and Joseph Smith was and is wrong.
shematwater said,
May 25, 2010 at 11:41 am
ECHO
That was Joseph Smith correcting the error in translation that existed. The Bible itself truly supports the idea of translation errors, as well as additional scripture. As such, the Joseph Smith Translation can be supported through the Bible.
I take all doctrine combined in one beautiful washing of light and truth. No single doctrine can stand on its own. They all must be taken together.
Now, I am going to be leaving these discussions for a few weeks. Personal events prevent me from commenting on them any further. I have enjoyed the conversation and hope to see you in future blogs.
Massey Nathanael said,
May 30, 2010 at 8:40 am
Latterdaysaintswoman–great job on this blog I see that you truly have a heart for people; seeling to share with them the truth of Grace in
Shem– I can give you some more passages that speak of Grace and not the Law saving us if you like
Romans 3:19-20
Romans 3:28
Romans 4:1-5
shematwater said,
June 1, 2010 at 2:01 pm
MASSEY
And I can give plenty of passages speaking to works and not Grace.
I do not deny Grace, or faith. I only accept that we must do our part. All three are required, and if any one is left out we are damned.
It should not be a contest on who can give the most scriptures, but who can explain their meaning in the most logical manner. In truth, the only contest should be which one does God himself testify of. I do not mean the Bible, but God. Which one will His spirit reveal to each individual in personal revelation. That is the only real test of anything.
echoechoecho said,
June 1, 2010 at 9:25 pm
Shem said: “It should not be a contest on who can give the most scriptures, but who can explain their meaning in the most logical manner.”
Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
The scriptures give us God’s logic. God’s logic isn’t our logic. We don’t think like God thinks. If your going to explain what scripture means through fatally flawed human logic, your going to come up with fatally flawed human doctrine. Besides that, it’s idolatry. That’s a sin against the first commandment.
Shem said: “It should not be a contest on who can give the most scriptures, but who can explain their meaning in the most logical manner. In truth, the only contest should be which one does God himself testify of.”
The scripture is God’s testimony. Your fatally flawed human logic is not God’s testimony. If you want to know what God himself testifies of, he has revealed it in his word! It is his word!
Shem said: ” I do not mean the Bible, but God.”
What your saying here is: “Don’t listen to God’s own word which is his testimony to us to protect us from all harm and false teaching but listen to anything but God’s own word.”
How does Satan decieve us? By telling us not to listen to God’s word! That way he can tell us whatever he wants to!
God directs us to go to the scriptures for his testimony and Jesus says to those who go anywhere but to scripture : “ye will not come to me that ye might have life”:
John 5:38-40 “And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not . Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.”
Massey Nathanael said,
June 3, 2010 at 9:20 am
Shem said –I do not mean the Bible, but God. Which one will His spirit reveal to each individual in personal revelation. That is the only real test of anything.
Me–the Bible IS the Relation Given by God 2Tim 3:16 lets us know that all scripture is profitable for teaching and reproof(testing) on this subject
Matt:22;29 and Mark 14;49 tell us that the Bible both the Old and NT are the power of God
regarding this theologian Charles Ryire wrote: Regarding this issue, Ryrie writes:
Most do not deny that 2 Timothy 3:16 includes all of the canonical books. Those who wish to try to reduce the amount of Scripture included in the verse do so by translating it this way: “All Scripture inspired by God is also profitable” (instead of “All Scripture is inspired by God and is profitable”). In other words, whatever parts of Scripture that are inspired are profitable, but other uninspired parts are not profitable. That translation indicates that only part of the Bible is inspired.
http://bible.org/seriespage/bible-inspired-revelation-god
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html
shematwater said,
June 3, 2010 at 10:39 am
ECHO
We have been through the whole “My thoughts are not your thoughts” thing before, and it is really tiring. However, As Massey is new here, I will go through it one more time.
God declared in Genesis that we are like him “To know Good and Evil.” We have the same capacity for thought and understanding that God does.
In Isaiah 1: 18 the Lord invites us to “Reason together” with him. If we lacked the capacity to understand his doctrine he would not have made this invitation.
God’s thoughts are not ours, for the simple fact that he exists in an eternal state, and has the experience of eternity to call on. We live in a mortal state. Without the ability to comprehend what we have not expereinced we cannot understand the existance of God. His thoughts are not ours because he has greater experience and power that gives him a clearer picture of things. We lack this experience and power. This does not mean we have different ways of thinking, only that we do not have enough information available.
As to Flawed doctrine, this only occurs when we do not “Reason together” with the Lord, but rely on our own understanding. We cannot arrive at the truth by ourselves, for the reasons stated above. We must have God in the mix, teaching us, and reasoning together with us, to reach the true doctrine of Christ.
MASSEY
When I said God that is what I meant. The Bible is the word of God, yes. But it has gone through many human hands, and is therefore not as reliable at God’s personal word to us. The author of a book can explain the meaning of it better than any scholar, and certainly better than any average person reading it.
As such, the final test of any doctrine should not be “Do I read it in the Bible?” There are too many varying interpretations to rely on this test. The final test must be “What does God say the Bible means?” After all, if God declares a passage to mean one thing all the scholars of the world can shout all they want and it won’t change the meaning.
This is what I am talking about. I do not rely on the revelations given to the ancient saints. There is too much time between us, and too many “Flawed” people have had their hands on the words. I rely on what God says personally to me, regardless of what anyone else says.
This is also the reason that I say that I have seen no LDS doctrine that cannot be found in or supported by the Bible. God has explained it to me, and it all is in perfect harmony.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 3, 2010 at 9:29 pm
Shem-This is also the reason that I say that I have seen no LDS doctrine that cannot be found in or supported by the Bible. God has explained it to me, and it all is in perfect harmony.
Me–so God explained to you that the Lie Satan told in Genesis 3 is TRUE claiming that man can become like god”
Shem–s such, the final test of any doctrine should not be “Do I read it in the Bible?” There are too many varying interpretations to rely on this test.
Me–Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Pet 20)
Aren’t your “interpretations” private?
Shem–When I said God that is what I meant. The Bible is the word of God, yes. But it has gone through many human hands, and is therefore not as reliable at God’s personal word to us.
Me– Again the Bible IS the revelation of God “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17)
If all scripture is God-breathed and if God does which Christians know to be the case would that show that what is in the Bible is exactly what God wants to be in there?
Massey Nathanael said,
June 3, 2010 at 9:46 pm
Shem–When I said God that is what I meant. The Bible is the word of God, yes. But it has gone through many human hands, and is therefore not as reliable at God’s personal word to us
Me–You will want to see this as I have a feeling that in your “flawed” human stubbornness did not glance at them earlier
http://gospelway.com/bible/bible_inspiration.php
http://bible.org/seriespage/bible-inspired-revelation-god
http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-of-Scripture.html
Let me give you a little preview of what you will see: you WILL get biblical proof that the Bible IS the inspired and accurate Word of God
echoechoecho said,
June 4, 2010 at 1:34 am
Shem said: “As to Flawed doctrine, this only occurs when we do not “Reason together” with the Lord, but rely on our own understanding.”
I agree with your statement here. However when you say: ” I do not mean the Bible, but God.” you are relying on your own understanding rather than God’s own testimony given to us in the Bible.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 4, 2010 at 6:44 pm
which is that private interpretation he is so dead set against which by his own admission are not of God–I am not really sure what he means to say?
catzgalore said,
June 5, 2010 at 9:28 am
wherein lies the dilemma. If you believe that the source of “truth” is anywhere, you can claim whatever you wish as “truth” and produce “revelation” whenever you want. You can go into the Word and find “backups” if you take things out of context and remove or add a word or two (that happens in Christian denominations too).
And depending on feelings? Well remember the Branch Davidians, and the Jones massacre, and suicide bombings, and 9/11??
shematwater said,
June 5, 2010 at 10:41 am
I thought I was being rather clear, myself. However, for further explanation.
You have three churches: One believes that a sprinkling is acceptable as a mode of baptism. The second believes that only complete immersion will do. The third teaches that baptism is not really necessary, and so any way, or even not doing it is fine.
Which of these three is right? I have seen all three stated as the Biblical truth, supported with an endless number of scriptures and reasoning. So which is it? It is quite obvious that it is possible for two churches to take the Bible and claim that it means two very different things. How do we know which is teaching the true doctrine of the Bible?
The only way to know is for God to tell us, personally. For us to go to God and ask “What did you mean when you told Paul to write this passage?” And then let God explain “This is what I meant…”
Now MASSEY
“So God explained to you that the Lie Satan told in Genesis 3 is TRUE claiming that man can become like god”
Yes, because in the Bible, just a few verses later, he says it was. (Gen. 3: 22
“And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.” If God has declared that this was true, why should say it is false. The “Lie” that Satan told was not that they would be like God, but that they wouldn’t die. This was the deception.
“Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation (2 Pet 20).”
Which is why I always ask God to tell me the interpretation, never relyinging on my own thoughts, or the thoughts of others. God tells me and I accept his word.
“Aren’t your “interpretations” private?” No, because they are not my interpretation, but those given me by God.
“Again the Bible IS the revelation of God “All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (2 Tim 3:16-17)”
Did I ever say the Bible was not the revelation of God? I said that because it has gone through the hands of men that I will not trust any man, not even myself, to tell me what it means. This is what I said. I really on God himself, not the King James scholars, not the Jewish scribes, and not modern scholars. I rely on God for an understanding of the Bible.
“If all scripture is God-breathed and if God does which Christians know to be the case would that show that what is in the Bible is exactly what God wants to be in there?”
Not necessarily. Just because “All Scripture” is God breathed, does not mean that “All the Bible is God Breathed.” Scripture and Bible are not synonomous terms. The Bible is one scripture, yes, but not necessarily all scripture. Also, not everything that is in the Bible is necessarily scripture (such as the Song of Solomon). This reasoning is what causing many to accept the “Apocrypha, while others reject it.
What all come down to is this: Who do you put your trust in? Do you trust mortal Scribes and scholars, or do you trust God? To rely on the Bible as we have it as the final word is to trust the scribes and translators of it more than God. But to rely on personal revelation from God as your final words is to trust God more than mortal men.
echoechoecho said,
June 5, 2010 at 8:30 pm
Shem said: I thought I was being rather clear, myself. However, for further explanation. You have three churches: One believes that a sprinkling is acceptable as a mode of baptism. The second believes that only complete immersion will do.
The word “Baptism” means: to sprinkle, wash or immerse. The Bible says to Baptize. It doesn’t say to sprinkle or immerse. Therefore either way is fine and acceptable. It becomes unacceptable when one denomination demands that their mode is the only mode, that becomes legalism and rules taught by men.
Shem said: Which of these three is right? I have seen all three stated as the Biblical truth, supported with an endless number of scriptures and reasoning. So which is it? It is quite obvious that it is possible for two churches to take the Bible and claim that it means two very different things. How do we know which is teaching the true doctrine of the Bible?
The truth is there in scripture and it can be found. You can be certain of it. Each person must study scripture for himself being opened to having one’s own mind changed by it.
Within all of Christendom (the various denominations), we do have false teachers. Some unknowingly spread their false teachings and some intentionally spread their false teachings. False teachings either mislead or deceive. To make matters more difficult, Christendom also has “professing Christians” (believers and unbelievers mixed together) who either knowingly or unknowingly sin against the first commandment by placing their churches along with it’s teachings as more important than God’s own word.
We have Sheep and Goats mixed together in Christendom. This is what keeps Christianity divided outwardly (visibly). But true Christianity (Sheep alone) is not divided inwardly (invisibly) There are Sheep in every denomination who desire to know God’s truth and go wherever it leads them no matter what the cost. This is the invisible Church of God and it is a united Church.
Satan’s desire is to keep Christians divided and so he use false teachers, he uses goats, he even uses Sheep and Shepherds in their ignorance to place obstacle upon obstacle upon obstacle in the Christian’s path. It takes time for true Sheep, true Christians to overcome all the obstacles. Victory for this Christian can only be gained through dependence on God’s word alone and total submission to it no matter what the cost.
While outwardly, Christendom may seem to be hopeless to you, that is because that is what Satan wants you to think. He is pretty deceiving and has already won you over on that. It only appears to look hopeless because of the presence of Goats and false teachers among the Sheep. The true Church, is invisible and consists of only Sheep. This Church, the invisible Church (just Sheep), is hidden under what is visible (Sheep mixed with Goats). However the invisible Church is alive and well. The Sheep seek the truth and go where it leads them no matter what the cost.
Shem said: “ The only way to know is for God to tell us, personally. For us to go to God and ask “What did you mean when you told Paul to write this passage?” And then let God explain “This is what I meant…”
What your saying here is that God is a liar and that you don’t believe his word. Don’t take that as an insult but as an instruction. What I mean by that is that your saying that God’s word isn’t clear. I believe God’s word is clear. It is the false teachers, the goats, the false prophets who attempt to make it unclear. God’s word is clear, one just has to be willing to go where that word leads no matter what the cost. But not many people are willing to do that.
Shem said: “What all come down to is this: Who do you put your trust in? Do you trust mortal Scribes and scholars, or do you trust God? To rely on the Bible as we have it as the final word is to trust the scribes and translators of it more than God. But to rely on personal revelation from God as your final words is to trust God more than mortal men.”
We aren’t trusting in mortal Scribes and scholars. The Bible is God’s own testimony. It is God’s own word. It was written and translated through men as if those men were his own pen in his own hand.
How can you be absolutely certain that your “personal revelation” isn’t the work of the devil and his demons?
Massey Nathanael said,
June 6, 2010 at 9:38 am
Shem–The “Lie” that Satan told was not that they would be like God, but that they wouldn’t die. This was the deception.
Me–So satan did tell a full truth Christians don’t die!–we go to heaven.. is this not so?
so what your saying is satan brings truth!
Shem–The “Lie” that Satan told was not that they would be like God,
Me-this argument called pantheism implies that your a “god”–then if thats the case; Can you not then assure yourself a place in heaven without having to “work” for it?
Me–which would then negate the need for the Christian God/Jesus altogether!
Massey Nathanael said,
June 6, 2010 at 9:48 am
Shem–Did I ever say the Bible was not the revelation of God?
Me-to say the bible was mistranslated is to say the the revelation of God was removed from the Bible altogether so men inherently turn from the truth–standing to reason that the truth was then removed! so ah YEAH you kinda did
Massey Nathanael said,
June 6, 2010 at 10:34 am
omit the word so
Massey Nathanael said,
June 6, 2010 at 10:49 am
Shem–Also, not everything that is in the Bible is necessarily scripture (such as the Song of Solomon). This reasoning is what causing many to accept the “Apocrypha, while others reject it.
Me-The Apocrypha is not inspired–and in fact the bible warns about false teaching books or otherwise (Gal 1:6-9, Duet:4:2)
“I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.
shematwater said,
June 7, 2010 at 9:48 am
ECHO
Yes, the many interpretations are very confusing and any man who thinks that they can discern the truth among them without the assistance of God is arrogant in the extreme. God gave his words, and if you want to believe all that is now in the Bible that is fine. But to say that you can tell what is true on your own is rediculous.
I am humble enough to know that I cannot simply read the Bible and find the truth on my own. I lack the wisdom to do this, and so I turn to God to give me the wisdom I need to understand his word.
You are constantly accusing me of following Satan, and yet you deny the very power of God in revealing truth. You have declared that we do not need him to tell us the truth, for we have the capacity to seek it out ourselves. Sure, he gave the truth in times past, but apparently we are smarter than any other generation, for we don’t need this personal communication with God that earlier generations required, that even the greatest prophets relied on. We are all smart enough to figure it out ourselves. Is this not what Satan would desire? Would not Satan delight in all of us relying on our own power to learn the truths of God? Would I not please Satan by saying that I do not need the assistance of God?
Please, try and examine your own arrogance and contradictions of thought before you attempt to correct mine.
shematwater said,
June 7, 2010 at 10:06 am
MASSEY
“So satan did tell a full truth Christians don’t die!–we go to heaven.. is this not so?”
He lied, because before any of us can go to Heaven we first die. Adam and Eve died Spiritually when they were cast out of the pressence of God, and all of us are born into this spiritual death. They also died physically, which the great majority of people on this Earth will also suffer. Satan lied by dening these very real truths. Yes, we will all live again, but we still all must die.
“The “Lie” that Satan told was not that they would be like God”
“This argument called pantheism implies that your a “god”–then if thats the case; Can you not then assure yourself a place in heaven without having to “work” for it?”
First, I am not a god, and I never claimed that I was. I said that my understanding of Good and Evil is the same as God’s, which is what the Bible teaches. This is very different. Now, I do believe that I can become a god, yes. But I will never become God (notice the difference in capitalization). That is outside by potential. As such I cannot assure myself a place in Heaven, as only God has that power.
“Which would then negate the need for the Christian God/Jesus altogether!”
And in this way I am still in need of Christ, for he is God, and thus it is through his power that I am assured a place in heaven, if I obey him.
The state of existance that is godhood is given to many, but the title of God, and all the authority and power that goes with it, is given only to the Father and his only begotten. This is where you are getting confused.
“To say the bible was mistranslated is to say the the revelation of God was removed from the Bible altogether so men inherently turn from the truth–standing to reason that the truth was then removed! so ah YEAH you kinda did.”
To say there is mistranslation is not to say the revelation was removed all together, and such a claim is truly rediculous. It is simply to say that the revelation has been confused, or made a little obscure and harder to be understood. Thus, the revelation is still there, but it is not in the plain, simple language that it once was.
I never said the revelation was taken out. That is an assumption made by you. You seem to be forcing the extremes. Either it is all true or it is all false. It does not have to be this way.
“The Apocrypha is not inspired–and in fact the bible warns about false teaching books or otherwise (Gal 1:6-9, Duet:4:2)”
And yet it was added to the Canan by the church, and is still used by many denominations. It was in common use up to the mid 1800’s at least.
Also, how do you know it is not inspired? Who told you? I would agree that many errors are in it, and thus it should not be counted as scripture. However, I would also say that there are many truths in it that were originally inspired, and thus reading it can be beneficial, if guided by the Spirit. Now, I take my beliefs from other scripture that gives counsel on this matter. But where do you get your information?
“Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.” Deuteronomy 4: 2.
So, the entire New Testiment needs to be thrown out. After all, it diminishes the words of Moses by removing the sacrifices. It also adds to the words by commanding in thoughts and not just actions.
I wouldn’t be supprised if the Pharisees used this same verse to discount Christ and all the Apostles.
echoechoecho said,
June 7, 2010 at 12:25 pm
Shem said: “I am humble enough to know that I cannot simply read the Bible and find the truth on my own. I lack the wisdom to do this, and so I turn to God to give me the wisdom I need to understand his word.
It comes back to the question I asked that you didn’t answer:
How can you be absolutely certain that your “personal revelation” isn’t the work of the devil and his demons?
The Holy Spirit works through the words of scripture to teach us the truth, the scriptures are the Holy Spirit’s word to us. That is how the Spirit confirms to us whether or not something is true.
1 Thessalonians 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
The scriptures were written so that we can believe truth and know it:
John 20:31 “…these are written that you may believe…”
The Bereans were considered NOBLE for going to the scriptures to see if what even the apostle Paul said was true. They didn’t ask for God to reveal if something was true:
Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Shem said: “You are constantly accusing me of following Satan”
I am not accusing you of following Satan, I am sounding the loving warning that he has decieved you. I do this because I want to help you from getting all caught up in his deceptive traps. Warning you about this is really a loving thing to do.
Shem said: “Sure, he gave the truth in times past, but apparently we are smarter than any other generation, for we don’t need this personal communication with God that earlier generations required, that even the greatest prophets relied on.”
In the Old Testament, people didn’t recieve personal revelation from God. God spoke to his people THROUGH prophets. God speaks to us today THROUGH those very same prophets.
Shem said: “Is this not what Satan would desire? Would not Satan delight in all of us relying on our own power to learn the truths of God?
The word comes with power:
Hebrews 4:12 “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”
However, Mormonism and Personal Revelation rob the word of all it’s power.
This is exactly what Satan wants. It’s a powerful deception.
Shem said: “Would I not please Satan by saying that I do not need the assistance of God?”
You are pleasing Satan by saying that the assistance God has given you in the scriptures isn’t good enough for you. The scriptures were written to protect you from Personal Revelations given to you through the power of the devil.
shematwater said,
June 7, 2010 at 6:06 pm
ECHO
You make absolutely no sense, and are confusing my words as you do it.
As to your question, let me ask you one: How do you know that your understanding of the Bible is the correct understanding?
I did not answer the question because it is a question that cannot be answered. I know that it is God speaking to me. Can I prove to you that it was? No. Just as I cannot prove to you that it was my Dad who taught me how to change a tire.
Now, technically, I can answer the question, but not in a way that would satisfy you, which is why I avoided it.
Now, I agree that the Holy Spirit works through the words of the scriptures. I never denied this. What I said is that all men need the Spirit to decern the meaning of the words. Thus, when I read the Bible I need the Spirit of God with me to explain to me the meaning.
Now, as to prophets and revelation in the Old Testiment, let me ask you this: If God is unchanging, than would he not speak to us by prophets of our day, just as he did for those in the days of the Old Testiment? Why is it that an unchanging God calls prophets in ancient times, but not in our time?
I know the wonderful argument that we have the words of the ancient prophets, but didn’t the Jews at the time of Christ have the words of previous prophets? Didn’t those at the time of Elijah have the words of Moses? Why, if these people already had the gospel, did they need prophets?
Your whole argument is flawed, and proves a changing God, which is contrary to the Bible.
Now, to finish out the remarks, so that you might actually understand what I said: I never said that the Bible was not enough for me. If that is all that God saw fit to reveal it would be plenty. However, this is not what my comment said, or even hinted at.
Satan would be pleased if I said I didn’t need God’s assistance. I do need his assistance, in everything, including in understanding his words that are written in the Bible. This is what I said.
So, let me ask you one more question: Can you understand the meaning of the Bible by simply reading it, or do you seek the Lords assistance in understanding it?
I have no chance of understanding the Bible if I rely on my own ability. Even you said that Human Logic will result in flawed doctrine. As such, when you tell me that if I ask God to help me understand I am doing what Satan wants I have to laugh, for you have contradicted yourself. We cannot rely on our own logic, but we have to rely on it to understand the scriptures.
What you say is contradictory and thus impossible. Either we have the capacity to disern correct doctrine on our own, or we must rely on personal revelation from God for such. You can’t deny both.
echoechoecho said,
June 8, 2010 at 2:32 pm
Shem said: “I did not answer the question because it is a question that cannot be answered. I know that it is God speaking to me. Can I prove to you that it was? No. Just as I cannot prove to you that it was my Dad who taught me how to change a tire.
Now, technically, I can answer the question, but not in a way that would satisfy you, which is why I avoided it.
It is a question that MUST be answered and you must be absolutely 100% certain it is God and not Satan because your eternal welfare, the state of your soul after death, rests on it. Satan works in the unseen realm doing all sorts of things you can’t see. He is a master at deception. He is a master at masquerading as an angel of light (an angel of God) and of masquerading as God himself. (2 Cor 11:14). You must have the answer to this and your answer must be rock solid in the sense of absolute proof that your personal revelations are from God and not from Satan.
Shem said: “Now, as to prophets and revelation in the Old Testiment, let me ask you this: If God is unchanging, than would he not speak to us by prophets of our day, just as he did for those in the days of the Old Testiment? Why is it that an unchanging God calls prophets in ancient times, but not in our time?
I know the wonderful argument that we have the words of the ancient prophets, but didn’t the Jews at the time of Christ have the words of previous prophets? Didn’t those at the time of Elijah have the words of Moses? Why, if these people already had the gospel, did they need prophets?
God called Prophets, Priests and Kings in ancient times but death prevented them from continuing in office. (Hebrews 7:23)
But because Jesus lives forever (Heb 7:24) he is our permanent Prophet, Priest and King thus eliminating the continuation of these offices.
Hebrews 1:1-2 “In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…”
Shem said: “So, let me ask you one more question: Can you understand the meaning of the Bible by simply reading it, or do you seek the Lords assistance in understanding it?”
I seek the Lord’s assistance in understanding the scripture, but that understanding and assistance come from the word itself. It does not come from and outside experience or positive feelings etc. that I have.
The word has what I call “walls” or “hedges” in it. Those walls prevent us from leaving the yard (so-to-speak). That is to say that they prevent us from misinterpreting God’s word. An example of that would be the temptation of Jesus. Satan quoted scripture verbatim but misapplied (misinterpreted) it. Jesus counters that temptation with a “wall” from the scripture to show that Satan misinterpreted God’s word. (Mathew 4:5-7)
Mormonism breaks down those walls by introducing “other scripture”, as well as an “open canon”, “personal revelation” etc. All of this begins with the temptation to doubt or distrust God’s word. Mormonism tempts Mormons to doubt or distrust God’s word by teaching you that the Bible has many plain and precious truths missing. And by teaching you that the Bible is correct only as far as it is translated correctly.
There goes the walls right there! Now you’re going beyond the walls into Satan’s territory. Naturally all the interpretations you now have are “outside the walls” therefore they are a misinterpretation of God’s word in the Bible.
This is why the teachings of Mormonism are so diametrically apposed to the teachings of those who rely on the Bible as the sole source of God’s word.
Let the Holy Spirit’s very own word in the Bible teach you that nothing is missing from scripture and believe his word even though your feelings don’t agree with it. That’s what I call walking by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)
And let the Holy Spirit’s very own word found in the scripture teach you that God’s word is translated exactly the way he wants it translated because God is in control and no man can stand in his way or thwart his plans. Believe his word even though your feelings don’t agree! Then you will be walking by faith and not by sight (2 Cor 5:7)
The problem with man is he walks by sight and not by faith. Everything he hears, sees, and experiences effects the way he feels. To walk by faith and not by sight means to believe God’s word despite what we hear, see, experience or feel. “Faith” and “Sight” will many times contradict each other and therefore cause contradictory emotions. That’s why it is so important to cling to faith and not to sight.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 8, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Shem-Would not Satan delight in all of us relying on our own power to learn the truths of God?
Me-unfortunately for the prince of this world we do not rely on our own power but that wisdom given God–We rely also on those references or whatever that have e also been given by God for the edification of His Children
Shem-to say that you can tell what is true on your own is rediculous.
Me-For Echo, or myself to claim that we know the truth is not ridiculous or arrogance because we do it in the knowledge and workings of who the living God is so that whoever hears may choose the life He has for them
Echo if I may?
Shem–We cannot rely on our own logic, but we have to rely on it to understand the scriptures.
Me–if the Bible is read with the understand that we won’t understand it but for god–The problem arises when that “personal revelation” comes from a “man” in this case Thomas S Monson or their books which is taken as an extension of that “revelation” or if you like “the pope”
Shem–If God is unchanging, than would he not speak to us by prophets of our day,
Me–You are correct God does not change–in OT times the prophets were called of God to define the relationship between God with the spoken word and later with the written as completed with revelation explaining who God, what was done and continuing to do
Massey Nathanael said,
June 8, 2010 at 3:50 pm
let my clarify
a statement I made
I said– We rely also on those references or whatever that have e also been given by God for the edification of His Children
What was talking about– was not other “gospels” i.e the BOM– I was talking about dictionaries and the like
echoechoecho said,
June 8, 2010 at 5:38 pm
Shem, Massey said something and I just want to add something to what he said for you.
Massey said: “Me-For Echo, or myself to claim that we know the truth is not ridiculous or arrogance because we do it in the knowledge and workings of who the living God is so that whoever hears may choose the life He has for them
Echo if I may? ”
Shem, If you tell me your name is Shem and that you are a Mormon, it isn’t ridiculous nor arrogant for me to say to anyone that your name is Shem and you are a Mormon. I can tell that those two things are true simply because you told me those two things were true and I trust that you are telling me the truth.
However, if I start listening to this guy called lets say: “John” and he says that Shem is a Mormon who only believes half of what his Church teaches and thinks the rest is false. Then it is ridiculous for me to listen to John when I should be coming to you for this information and asking you if this is true or not.
In Mormonism, you have John (who represents any outside force such as a person, an opinion, an open canon, the BOM, personal revelation, modern day prophets etc. that stand outside of God’s word in the Bible and that sway you to think in one way or another) and you have credited John with more power to convince you of truth than God’s very own word!
That’s like me listening to John when he tells me that you only believe half of what your Church teaches! So what truly happens when I listen to John rather than you? I don’t have the truth about you!
In the same way, it is ridiculous to look for information about God outside of his own testimony to us in the Bible. Personal Revelation is untrustworthy unless it is in complete 100% harmony with God’s word. And since God’s word is the ruler by which we measure all things to decide if it’s 100% in harmony, we can throw out the personal revelation and just stick to the ruler.
This is important: God’s word measures the trustworthiness and truthfulness of revelation. Revelation doesn’t measure the trust-worthiness and truthfulness of God’s word. And because of that, you don’t need personal revelation, you only need God’s word since it is THE rule by which to measure all things, God’s word makes all the decisions for you.
Personal revelation can only confuse you and lead you astray from the truth but when you rely on God’s own word alone, which was written just for you to protect you from being led astray in the first place, then you can be sure and confident of the truth and it’s not ridiculous or arrogant.
shematwater said,
June 8, 2010 at 5:52 pm
ECHO
“I seek the Lord’s assistance in understanding the scripture, but that understanding and assistance come from the word itself.”
This is a contradiction. You seek the Lord’s assistance without seeking for it. You are relying on your own ability to disern the meaning of scripture. You claim God’s assistance from the words, but all you have said is that you have found this to be the case. You, from your own wisdom, have discovered the way the scriptures work, and now you can let them assist you in understanding them. This is what you have said. You speak of “walls,” but how do you know these things are really in the Bible? You know only because you thought of them.
You have stated that receiving anything from God that does not come from the Bible is evil and should not be sought after. Yet you rely on your own ability to understand the Bibl. You have cast out the power of God in everything.
Now, I new you were going to use the Hebrews quote to support the idea that there was no personal revelation in the OLD Testement. But that is not what is being said here. What is being said is that the words was delivered by the prophets, and now it is delivered by Christ. It does not say that God only revealed things to the prophets.
Think of all the gentiles who had never heard the word, but who believed and received the Holy Ghost. Think of the what Christ told Peter when the apostle declared him to be the Christ. “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Peter had a personal revelation from God. If God is no respector of persons why should I not desire the same that Peter received?
If God does not give personal revelation why are we told to “Ask and you shall receive?” Why does James counsel us to ask God is we lack wisdom? if everything we need is in the Bible why these constant admonishments to pray?
Everything you say is one contradiction after another. You have denied the power of God, changed the manner in which he works, and teach that which is contrary to the Bible. And yet you claim that I am deceived by Satan because I believe what the Bible says, and seek to do as the ancient saints did.
(Oh, and as to the all important question, did you not read what I said? I know, 100%, without any doubt, that it is God who has spoken to me and revealed the truth of these things to my mind and my spirit. Nothing is mroe sure than that. However, it does no good in telling you this as I cannot prove it to you, nor do I really think you would accept such a statement from me.
MASSEY
You have simply agree with Echo, that God has altered his ways, has changed his methods. If God intended us to learn from past generations why did it take over 4000 years to reveal all that he wanted us to know? It is illogical to say that he intended us to be dependant on them if they were not dependant on their fathers. It makes him change.
As to the rest, I am not speaking of revelations given by men, but by God. I accept the truths in all scriptures, not because Joseph Smith wrote it, but because God has told me that it is true. You can dismiss it as “from man” all you want, but the same thing can be said of the Bible. It was all written by men.
There is no passage in the bible that declares the canon closed, or that revelation has stopped. Yet you declare it to be. Without the confirmation of the Lord you have declared that he has ceased to work among men.
Can you not see that any claim to the truth without personal revelation from God is denying his power and authority? It is placing your ability to understand above his. It is saying that you do not need him to know the truth. You may accept the atonement, but you reject everything else that is God.
Just answer this one question: When you read a verse of scripture, How do you know what it means?
shematwater said,
June 8, 2010 at 5:55 pm
By the way; The Hebrew 7 verses is simply talking about the leadership. Because people die there was a necessity of reorganizing the leadership (like Joshua taking over after Moses). Because of Christ’s nature there will never be a need for another to take his place as the head of the church (which position he held from the beginning of the world).
rlofferdahl said,
June 8, 2010 at 6:59 pm
Shem;
You asked: “Now, as to prophets and revelation in the Old Testiment (Testament), let me ask you this: If God is unchanging, than (then) would he not speak to us by prophets of our day, just as he did for those in the days of the Old Testiment (Testament)? Why is it that an unchanging God calls prophets in ancient times, but not in our time?” … “Your whole argument is flawed, and proves a changing God, which is contrary to the Bible.”
Actually, it is your whole argument that is flawed. You assert that Echo’s argument is flawed because a God who would “no longer” reveal himself to us by prophets as he did in Old Testament times “proves” a changing God, contrary to the Bible. But consider: I could use this same argument against your position. According to this same fallacious line of reasoning, “a God who would even “begin” revealing himself “proves” a changing God, which is contrary to the Bible.”
You fail to grasp that God’s attribute of immutability refers not to any aspect of how, or when, or to what degree he condescends to reveals himself, but rather to his very nature. You are guilty of trying to confine a limitless God to within your small box of limited human reason and understanding.
RLO
echoechoecho said,
June 8, 2010 at 9:05 pm
Shem I wrote a post above that you may have missed. It’s post #38
Shem said: “This is a contradiction. You seek the Lord’s assistance without seeking for it. You are relying on your own ability to disern[sic] the meaning of scripture. You claim God’s assistance from the words, but all you have said is that you have found this to be the case. You, from your own wisdom, have discovered the way the scriptures work, and now you can let them assist you in understanding them. This is what you have said. You speak of “walls,” but how do you know these things are really in the Bible? You know only because you thought of them.
You have stated that receiving anything from God that does not come from the Bible is evil and should not be sought after. Yet you rely on your own ability to understand the Bibl.[sic] You have cast out the power of God in everything.”
It’s only a contradiction to you my friend because you don’t yet understand it.
Luke 24:45 “Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures”
Mormonism closes minds to scripture by saying that the Bible is insufficient, is missing some truths and is translated incorrectly. That is why you can’t understand the scriptures, that is why you need all this outside help, that is why what I say contradicts what you say.
Shem said: “Now, I new[sic] you were going to use the Hebrews quote to support the idea that there was no personal revelation in the OLD Testement.[sic]
We weren’t talking about personal revelation in the Old Testament when I gave this response; we were talking about present day prophets. Present day prophets, as the LDS has, are not scriptural. But because Jesus lives forever (Heb 7:24) he is our permanent Prophet, Priest and King thus eliminating the continuation of these offices.
Shem said: “ But that is not what is being said here. What is being said is that the words was delivered by the prophets, and now it is delivered by Christ.”
Exactly! No more present day prophets. Christ IS our present day prophet.
.
Shem said: “ Think of the what Christ told Peter when the apostle declared him to be the Christ. “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.” Peter had a personal revelation from God. If God is no respector[sic] of persons why should I not desire the same that Peter received?”
Where does the scripture say that this was a personal LDS style revelation? It doesn’t! The LDS has added that to the scripture. Peter has just spent 2 years with Jesus following him constantly. God revealed the truth to him “through” the events that took place. Peter watched how Jesus lived, watched his miracles and heard all his teachings.
Shem said: “If God does not give personal revelation why are we told to “Ask and you shall receive?” Why does James counsel us to ask God is we lack wisdom? if everything we need is in the Bible why these constant admonishments to pray?”
Perhaps you could define what personal revelation is for us. I can ask God for many things in prayer that have nothing to do with asking him to reveal if his word is true.
Shem said: “Everything you say is one contradiction after another. You have denied the power of God, changed the manner in which he works, and teach that which is contrary to the Bible. And yet you claim that I am deceived by Satan because I believe what the Bible says, and seek to do as the ancient saints did.
Nothing I believe contradicts the Bible. It’s simply that you have not yet understood what I believe. You say you believe what the bible says, but if that were truly true, you wouldn’t have to ask for a revelation from God to find out whether or not it is true. Basically by praying to see if the Bible is true, your showing that you don’t believe God’s word is true.
Shem said: “(Oh, and as to the all important question, did you not read what I said? I know, 100%, without any doubt, that it is God who has spoken to me and revealed the truth of these things to my mind and my spirit. Nothing is mroe[sic] sure than that. However, it does no good in telling you this as I cannot prove it to you, nor do I really think you would accept such a statement from me.
Well that is interesting since I know 100% without any doubt that it is NOT God who has spoken to you and revealed these things to your mind and spirit.
Basically by praying to see if the Bible is true, your showing that you don’t believe God’s word is true. The Bible says it’s true, why don’t you believe him? You shouldn’t have to pray about that you should just believe! Your also allowing present day false prophets along with their false scriptures such as the BOM and JST that contradict the very word of God to shape your beliefs about God. All of this in complete contradiction to God’s very own word that you refuse to believe!
Could your personal revelations be powerful delusions?
2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 “They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”
echoechoecho said,
June 8, 2010 at 9:40 pm
Shem said: “Just answer this one question: When you read a verse of scripture, How do you know what it means?”
It means exactly what it says without adding or subtracting from what it says.
Shem said: ” but the same thing can be said of the Bible. It was all written by men.”
1 Thessalonians 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
In the above verse, the “word of God” is something that they heard from these apostles (The apostles in the Bible). It is this word, (the word of the apostles in the Bible), that is at work in those who believe.
Shem said: “There is no passage in the bible that declares the canon closed, or that revelation has stopped. Yet you declare it to be”
John 8:31 “Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching , you are really my disciples.
The LDS doesn’t hold to his teaching, they have new teaching, new revelation, new scripture.
2 Peter 1:3 “His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.”
Notice the past tense “HAS given us”. Nothing in this verse says that he “WILL give” us everything we need.
Romans 16:25-26 “Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him”
Revelation is finished because all has now been revealed!
Ephesians 3:5 “which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.”
Revelation is finished because all has now been revealed!
2 Timothy 3:14-17 “But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of , because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
Past tense again: “continue in what you HAVE learned and HAVE become convinced of”
And also: “How from infancy YOU HAVE KNOWN the holy scriptures” and that from these very same scriptures you “may be thoroughly equipped.” The Bible contains everything we need to be thoroughly equipped!
Massey Nathanael said,
June 8, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Shem–So, the entire New Testiment needs to be thrown out. After all, it diminishes the words of Moses by removing the sacrifices.
Me-Christ himself said that He came to fulfill the OT scriptures
It was also confirmed by Him that He would be the sacrificial lamb to Atone for the sins of mankind thus negating the need for “sin offerings”
Shem-You have simply agree with Echo
Me–I agree with people in such matters when what that person says goes with scripture
Shem–if God intended us to learn from past generations why did it take over 4000 years to reveal all that he wanted us to know? It is illogical to say that he intended us to be dependant on them if they were not dependant on their fathers. It makes him change.
We agree that within as told by God is intent was to tell mankind of Christ in His own time” that prospect never changed however
God can chose to relay that message via whoever He chooses at what time he chooses He doesn’t need you or I to do anything just as we can choose to obey or not–to deny this would deny God’s sovereignty and our free-will
Shem–You can dismiss it as “from man” all you want, but the same thing can be said of the Bible. It was all written by men.
Me-it’s true the Bible was put to “paper” by the hands of men but it IS the true living inspired and unchanging Word of God as given by the Holy Spirit for the salvation of everyone who believes I invite you to again read 2 Pet.1:20,21 which states
KJV–Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Now in the NIV-Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Shem-It is saying that you do not need him to know the truth. You may accept the atonement, but you reject everything else that is God.
Me- I am glad I never said that I didn’t get the truth from God’s word which IS and WAS given by God –I can’t imagine what would happen to the man that does!
Shem-because of Christ’s nature there will never be a need for another to take his place as the head of the church (which position he held from the beginning of the world).
Me– I believe that’s the consensus out of sheer curiosity Why do the Catholics and Mormons negate this passage choosing to place men at the head of the church and then accept that word as law?
For example I give the resolution passed by Young against blacks being “leaders” in the church when inequality goes against the Bible? The “law” was then repelled in the 70s only after pressure from the Civil Liberties union
There is no passage in the bible that declares the canon closed, or that revelation has stopped. Yet you declare it to be
Me- I made now such statement
what I said was-that the Bible as such was completed with revelation
if you agree that the Bible is the Word of God thus the law read
John 1:1
Ps 119;142
proverbs 30:5-6
You agree that the Bible is the Word thus the Law of God? Did Christ not proclaim himself the living word?
Did Christ not say he has come to fulfill the law?(Matthew 5:17)
the Suffix “ed” on the end of the word fulfill implies completion..Does it not? which would then imply that Christ came to finish something..in this case the law!
shematwater said,
June 9, 2010 at 2:23 pm
MASSEY
I do apologize if I misunderstood your words. However, if the Bible does not declare the canon closed, and does not declare an end to revelation, then how is believing in additional scripture or continuing revelation going against the word of God?
You have said the Book of Mormon is not scripture. Where is your proof? If you agree that God has the power to reveal his will to whomever he chooses then where is the evil in seeking such revelation, as he has told us do (see my previous posts)?
The only point I have ever made is that if we deny personal revelation as a means of learning truth we will never learn truth, as we are relying on our own ability.
I have never denied the Bible to be the word of God, and I hold it as the greatest of all the books of scripture. It was penned by men, as they were inspired by God. It is his word delivered to his people, and is good for instruction and learning. However, it can only be learned fully when we have a teacher instructing us (like the ancient Apostles taught the saints) and the greatest teacher is God.
What I have heard from Echo is this: If I accept any communication from God that is not word for word from the Bible I am following Satan. This is rediculous, and what I have denied. I have never claimed to learn truth without reading the Bible. But I do deny learning truth through my own ability in reading the Bible.
I do need to say a few remarks about the resolution by Brigham Young against Blacks
First, it was Joseph Smith who declared this, not Brigham Young. The second may have reinforced it, but he did not start it.
Second, equality before God is in the Bible, but general equality is not. Slavery was practiced by Israel in the Old Testiment. Only one Tribe was permitted to hold the Priesthood after the time of Moses. In the New Testiment the Apostles were forbidden to take the Gospel to the gentiles until Peter had his wonderful vision. There are many examples of the people of God being commanded to discriminate against other races and peoples throughout the Bible. Thus, for him to give a similar command in our day is not contrary to the Bible. It is contrary to the modern perception of the Bible.
Third, there was no outside source that lifted the ban on blacks. there was pressure, yes. But no amount of pressure was going to affect the Church until they received permission from God (which people knew was going to be given at some time, and was eagerly sought for since the time of Joseph Smith).
ECHO
I am tired of this whole thing. I am not going to address all that has been said, as I can see that it will do no good. I will address only one thing. You say you know what the meaning of a verse in the Bible is by what it says, without adding or subtracting from it. Okay. Explain the meaning of this passage.
1 Peter 3: 18-20 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
And
1 Peter 4: 5-6 “Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live ccording to God in the spirit.”
RLO
When did I ever say God “Began” to reveal himself to prophets? From the beginning of this Earth God has revealed himself to all the Faithful, and called prophets to lead them. There was a biginning only in the sense that this stage in our existance began. We knew him long before now, and through faith he reveals himself to all men.
My argument is not flawed, in that it deals with his very nature and attitude towards us while on this Earth. If all men are the same in his eyes, if he is “no respector of persons,” then he will treat us in the same manner in which he treated our ancestors. As such he will not leave us to depend on past generations, because he has never required this of anybody who had faith on his name.
echoechoecho said,
June 9, 2010 at 5:46 pm
Shem said: “Explain the meaning of this passage.
1 Peter 3: 18-20 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
And
1 Peter 4: 5-6 “Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead. For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live ccording to God in the spirit.”
I would be glad to give you my interpretation of these scriptures but could I ask you to give your interpretation first? Thanks in advance.
catzgalore said,
June 9, 2010 at 7:15 pm
Shem you asked
You have said the Book of Mormon is not scripture. Where is your proof?
What is the nature of God? How many gods are there?
All through this blog, people have shared the differences of interpretation between Christian and LDS. This question has been answered many times, although not as a direct answer to your question. There are so many reasons, but the main thing is the very nature of God as revealed in the Book of Mormon is not the same as the God of the Bible. It teaches a different gospel although you would disagree.
The teachings of your church leaders have proved the falseness of your gospel. There are no sacred/secret ceremonies, no secret handshake to be admitted to the highest heaven. Our undergarments cannot protect us. There is nothing WE do to be saved– it is God’s work, not our work that makes us acceptable to God.
There are so many reasons, Seth, but you can’t see them, because your eyes cannot see them, your ears cannot hear them.
Praying, Seth, that God would allow your heart to be softened, and that you would hear the true Gospel and believe Jesus.
shematwater said,
June 10, 2010 at 9:25 am
CATZ
Have you ever read the Book of Mormon? The funny thing about your comment is that the Book of Mormon is remarkably similar to the Bible in what it teaches concerning the nature of God. I have read more than one article about how “Christian” the Book of Mormon is compared to the LDS church.
Now, I admit that there are things explained in more detail in the Book of Mormon. However, nothing in the Book of Mormon is directly contradicted by the Bible, and nothing is different in terms of God’s nature. This is why I asked the question. Because anyone reading the Book of Mormon should see the many similarities between it and the Bible.
ECHO
But you said you can give the real meaning just from reading the words. If that is true than whatever my interpretation is doesn’t matter. So why are you asking for it?
Personally, I have no desire to tell you that your interpretation is wrong. I simply point out that these particular passages, as well as many others, can easily be interpreted in many different ways. As such how do we know which is the correct interpretation?
catzgalore said,
June 10, 2010 at 9:46 am
Quoting Seth
You quote D&C 1: 32, but you give a false interpretation. The verse states “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
You talk about how keeping the commandments will not pay the debt, but this verse does not say it will. It says you must repent and keep the commandments. In other words, you must pay your debt, and you must not gain anymore debt.
But this verse SAYS that keeping the commandments will gain your forgiveness! Can’t you see that?? I read this verse, “he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
So what your Jesus did was made it possible to meet the bank president and be given a loan (you are conditionally forgiven). If you don’t pay the payments, what you have been given will be taken away from you. If you don’t gain any more debt, then you are OK. Am I understanding what you are saying? Forgive me for not understanding– it does not make sense, your Jesus’ conditional forgiveness.
I know that we all gain more debt. We all sin, every day. We confess our sins, daily! But we also acknowledge that we are already forgiven, the work of the Cross has been done and we can rejoice. We can now really love others because we have been so deeply loved…He knows our sins, our shortcomings, and He loves us because of what Jesus did.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
June 10, 2010 at 10:43 am
Catz,
Thanks for going back to what Seth said and defining exactly what this LDS scripture truly states! You have given the very same interpretation of this verse as that of LDS prophets and apostles–Seth has not.
From Gospel Principles (pages 111-112) we read:
“We Must Keep the Commandments of God. To make our repentance complete we must keep the commandments of the Lord (see D&C 1:32). We are not fully repentant if we do not pay tithes or keep the Sabbath day holy or obey the Word of Wisdom. We are not repentant if we do not sustain the authorities of the Church and do not love the Lord and our fellowmen. If we do not pray and are unkind to others, we are surely not repentant. When we repent, our life changes. Elder Kimball said: “Repentance means not only to convict yourselves of the horror of the sin, but to confess it, abandon it, and restore to all who have been damaged to the total extent possible; then spend the balance of your lives trying to live the commandments of the Lord so he can eventually pardon you and cleanse you” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200).”
From Teachings of Presidents of the Church Spencer W. Kimball, pages 34-44:
“True repentance includes a commitment to live the Lord’s commandments. In his preface to modern revelation, the Lord outlined what is one of the most difficult requirements in true repentance. For some it is the hardest part of repentance, because it puts one on guard for the remainder of his life. The Lord says: “… I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; “Nevertheless, he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.” (D&C 1:31–32. Italics added.) This scripture is most precise. First, one repents. Having gained that ground he then must live the commandments of the Lord to retain his vantage point. This is necessary to secure complete forgiveness. … Repentance must involve an all-out, total surrender to the program of the Lord. That transgressor is not fully repentant who neglects his tithing, misses his meetings, breaks the Sabbath, fails in his family prayers, does not sustain the authorities of the Church, breaks the Word of Wisdom, does not love the Lord nor his fellowmen. … God cannot forgive unless the transgressor shows a true repentance which spreads to all areas of his life. …“Doing the commandments” includes the many activities required of the faithful. … General good works and devotion accompanied by constructive attitudes are what is needed. In addition, a sound way to neutralize the effects of sin in one’s life is to bring the light of the gospel to others who do not now enjoy it. This can mean working with both inactive members of the Church and nonmembers—perhaps more usually the latter. Note how the Lord has related the forgiveness of sins to the bearing of testimony respecting the latter-day work: “For I will forgive you of your sins with this commandment—that you remain steadfast in your minds in solemnity and the spirit of prayer, in bearing testimony to all the world of those things which are communicated unto you.” (D&C 84:61. Italics added.)
From The Latter-day Saint Woman: Basic Manual for Women, Part A, Pages 16-19
“In order to repent, we must follow a certain process. This process is explained in Gospel Principles chapter 19, pages 123–26. Discuss the seven parts of repentance discussed in Gospel Principles chapter 19…
1. Recognizing sin
2. Feeling sorrow for sin
3. Forsaking sin
4. Confessing sin
5. Making restitution
6. Forgiving others
7. Keeping the commandments of God
Because Jesus Christ paid for our sins, He has the power to forgive us. When we follow the process of repentance, the Savior promises that He will forgive us of our sins and remember them no more. Read Doctrine and Covenants 58:42.
Through repentance we become clean and pure again.
From Aaronic Priesthood Manual 1, pages 82-85:
“Put up the final wordstrip, “Keep His commandments and endure to the end.” Explain that if we have faith in Jesus Christ, we can overcome our sins and receive the guidance and support of the Lord throughout our lives. Point out that this step is perhaps the hardest. It means that to prove our sincerity we must be on guard every day so that we do not fall back into old habits. To earn God’s forgiveness we should go the extra mile, forsaking not only our sins, but doing good wherever we can…“
From True to the Faith-Repentance:
“Full obedience brings the complete power of the gospel into your life, including increased strength to overcome your weaknesses. This obedience includes actions you might not initially consider part of repentance, such as attending meetings, paying tithing, giving service, and forgiving others. The Lord promised, “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven” (D&C 1:32).“
echoechoecho said,
June 10, 2010 at 12:12 pm
Shem, I apologize if your frustrated with me. Please understand that in all I say, I don’t want to make you feel like I don’t care about you because in fact I do care about you and all LDS because God cares about you and all LDS. Any one of us can be deceived by Satan if we are not careful, or if we have not learned something yet or for whatever reason. The point being that nobody is immune. Even then we need each other to keep this from happening. The right and Godly thing to do is to help each other out of Satan’s deceptive traps. My being honest with you about the fact that I think you have been deceived is intended in the kind of love that wants to rescue people from Satan’s deceptive traps. That is what friends do for friends.
Shem said: “I simply point out that these particular passages, as well as many others, can easily be interpreted in many different ways. As such how do we know which is the correct interpretation?”
I understand what your saying now I hope. If not, let me know. Remember the “Walls” I was telling you about? Well those walls are this : allowing scripture to interpret scripture. Or in other words, allowing or letting God himself interpret the scriptures for us. Again, we can’t add or subtract to/from his word but his word keeps us within the walls of proper interpretation. For example:
1 Peter 3:18-20 “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”
I think everything is pretty much self explanatory except for perhaps the part of the passage that reads as follows:
“By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison”
The proper way to interpret this passage is to use the “walls” that I talked about before because they will help us interpret the scripture the way they were intended to be interpreted. Again, these walls are what are called: “allowing scripture to interpret scripture”. That simply means that we allow God to interpret his own word for us.
Here is the first Wall to help us know what this scripture does NOT mean.
We know from other passages of scripture that THE MOMENT WE DIE we face an eternity in heaven or an eternity in Hell. The moment we die, we CANNOT change our eternal destiny. It is permanent and unchangeable destiny. Here are the scriptures:
Proverbs 11:7 “When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.”
Hebrews 9:27 “Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,”
Luke 16:19-31 “There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
So we know from these scriptures that Jesus did NOT go to preach to the spirits in prison (Hell) so that they could now believe in him and have the opportunity to go to heaven. Those scripture passages rule that interpretation out. But if that doesn’t satisfy we have more scriptures to help us interpret the passage correctly:
When we look at the context of the passages, there we learn that these spirits that Jesus preached to were the spirits of those drowned in the flood in the days of Noah. So what does the scripture have to say about those people when they lived? Let’s look at Genesis chapter 6. Genesis 6:5-7 says: “And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.”
Noah was a preacher of righteousness to these people and God waited patiently for them to repent but they refused to repent. So these spirits that Jesus visited in prison had hearts that were only evil continually and God “destroyed” them.
In the book of Hebrews we learn that Noah’s actions condemned the world of his day:
Hebrews 11:7: “By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world , and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
In the verses below the people drowned in the flood went to Hell and are called “Unrighteous” the verse says they are being held in Hell for the judgment day while continuing their “punishment”.
2 Peter 2:4-9 “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.”
And of course, the day of judgment and the punishment is referring to the destruction of ungodly men:
2 Peter 3:7 “By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.”
So what did Jesus preach to the spirits in Prison? The word “preached” in the Greek is G2784 in the concordance. It means: “To proclaim (declare), announce publically.”
So if we take that information and put it together with the context of the passage which says: “ being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached” the interpretation is that Jesus proclaimed or announced his victory over death to the souls in Hell. The spirits know that their punishment, judgment and destruction are irrevocable (incapable of being retracted or revoked).
echoechoecho said,
June 10, 2010 at 12:55 pm
Shem, catzgalore is right.
Because of the *added scriptures* of the LDS, the LDS has a different gospel in fact a whole different Jesus.
Those *added scriptures* change the doctrines of the bible by adding to God’s word something it doesn’t say. By adding those LDS scriptures, the LDS is “turning to” a different gospel. “Turning to” means to move onto something else, something different, something new. And it is these new things, these new teachings of the LDS Church that cause “confusion” on how to interpret scripture.
Galatians 1:5-7 “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.”
From the LDS D&C 1: 32 “he that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven.”
The quote above is not the gospel of Christ. If forgiveness rests on your obedience to the commandments you can’t ever have a clear conscience because all of us sin daily. No unclean thing can enter God’s presence therefore you must have a perfectly clean conscience at all times. That’s impossible when forgiveness rests on your obedience.
The true Gospel of Christ in the Bible says the opposite! It says it’s not our obedience to the commandments that result in a clear conscience i.e. ” not the putting away of the filth of the flesh” but rather it is our Baptism that results in having a clear conscience. Our Baptism IS God’s sign to us that all our sins have already been forgiven by the resurrection of Jesus Christ!
1 Peter 3:21 “The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ”
Massey Nathanael said,
June 10, 2010 at 1:18 pm
Shem–You have said the Book of Mormon is not scripture. Where is your proof?
Me–convincing you theat what is in the bible either historically or by its own wording is not mine or anyone else’s place that task falls to you– all that we can do is show you what has been said myself and others have done. using biblical proofs and even secular proofs with links and posts and even contradiction in mormon teaching
Shem–I have never denied the Bible to be the word of God, and I hold it as the greatest of all the books of scripture
Me–If the Bible is the greatest of all books–why do you uphold the teachings of men like Thomas Monson who contradict it at every turn–remember this: speaking as a Christian does not mean you are a Christian!!
Shem–The only point I have ever made is that if we deny personal revelation as a means of learning truth we will never learn truth, as we are relying on our own ability.
Me–I can say I have had a my own ability told me to murder the next individual that called me a cripple–Does that make it right??
or should I check that decision against the Bible? which you claim is –the greatest of all the books–which implies that you believe it to be truth
Shem–how is believing in additional scripture or continuing revelation going against the word of God?
Me read Gal 1:6-9
which states–I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed
Shem-I have never claimed to learn truth without reading the Bible. But I do deny learning truth through my own ability in reading the Bible
Me-If I may no one is accusing you of following Satan. I have no doubt that you read the Bible and if I gave the impression my brother I am sincerely sorry. All I I want is for you to come to a saving knowledge of the Christ in the truth of the Bible
shematwater said,
June 11, 2010 at 5:44 pm
CATZ
Why are you quoting the D&C when we were discussing the Book of Mormon? It seems that the only reason you have for dismissing the Book of Mormon is that the LDS church believes in it. You have nothing from the book itself.
What the D&C teaches does not prove what the Book of Mormon teaches. (And yes, you still do not fully understand the meaning of the verse, but are being a little too simplictic.)
ECHO
I appreciate your explanation, but you did not address both of the references I gave. What about 1 Peter 4: 5-6, where it says “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live cording to God in the spirit.”
As to your explanation, it is sound, but let me offer another. I do not want a debate, only to show the possibility of differences:
You gave a few quotes to show what the first passage could not mean. I will address these first.
Hebrews 9: 27 (and I will add 28). “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.”
What we see here is a comparrison. The death and judgement of man being compared to the atonement and second coming. Now, we know that the atonement of Christ happened many years in the past, and a time was given between the atonement and the second coming. The purpose of this was to allow the apostles to spread the gospel to all the world. So, in following the comparrison, death comes, and while judgement will be after death it will not be immediately after death. But there will be a time given for men to prepare for the judgement, just as a time was given for men to prepare for the second coming.
Proverbs 11: 7 “When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.”
What was meant by this? You have given a very reasonable interpretation. However, let us consider what the words mean. This is speaking of wicked men. What is a wicked man? Is a wicked man anyone who violates the law of God, or is it a term that refers only to those who knowingly, and willfully violate the law of God. You interpretation assumes it is an all encompassing term. But it doesn’t have to be. If a person never knew the commands of God are they still wicked, or are they simple deceived. With this understanding one could say that this proverb does not apply to those who sinned in ignorance, who had no understanding of God’s law. If it does not apply to those who sinned in ignorance, what is the fate of these?
This idea can be seen in the Bible-Romans 7: 7 “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” Without the law one cannot truly sin, and cannot be truly labeled as being wicked.
Combining these two (Hebrews and Proverbs) we can see the reasonable idea that the time between death and judgement is given for these ignorant sinners, who had not the opportunity in this life to learn the gospel and thus repent.
We begin to see that the passage from 1 Peter 3 begins to take on a different meaning. Even with the greek translation of the words you give, we see that Christ did come to proclaim something, but it was not simply his victory. As it says in the second passage I gave “For for this cause was the GOSPEL preached also to them that are DEAD, that THEY might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
We see that Christ preached the gospel to the spirits of those who had not yet heard the gospel, as they had died without the opportunity. We see that this is done so that they have the same advantage as those of us who have heard the word preached in this life. In this way we see the great mercy of God, that he had prepared a way for all his children to receive his gospel, and have that chance to accept it.
The third reference you gave to prove what the verse could not mean was that of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. This is a much better one. However, as Peter tells us that Christ did go to the spirits in prison I would simply say that the gulf dividing them was bridged by Christ. It remained a gulf when the parable was given, but after the Atonement Christ bridged it to take the gospel to them.
As I said, I do not want to get into a debate. I have simply given an alternative understanding of the passages. To me it makes more sense, and fits better with the wording given in the Bible. To you it may not. That is fine. But, going back to my original point, how do we know which is the correct interpretation? Both follow what you said, as nothing is being added or subtracted from the words given. So, which is right, and how do we know?
echoechoecho said,
June 12, 2010 at 1:32 am
Shem said: “ But, going back to my original point, how do we know which is the correct interpretation? Both follow what you said, as nothing is being added or subtracted from the words given. So, which is right, and how do we know?”
By continuing in the scripture this way:
Shem said: “ What about 1 Peter 4: 5-6, where it says “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live cording to God in the spirit.”
This verse is speaking about the gospel being preached to people while they were still living but those people are now dead. This is made clearer in the NIV “For this is the reason the gospel WAS preached even to those who are NOW dead The gospel WAS preached to them (in the past) but NOW they are dead.
The point being that the gospel is to be preached in this life so that we may receive judgment in this life and avoid the judgment to come, which goes with the context of 1 Peter 4:17 “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?”
Shem said: Hebrews 9: 27 (and I will add 28). “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. What we see here is a comparrison.[sic] The death and judgement[sic] of man being compared to the atonement and second coming. Now, we know that the atonement of Christ happened many years in the past, and a time was given between the atonement and the second coming. The purpose of this was to allow the apostles to spread the gospel to all the world. So, in following the comparrison,[sic] death comes, and while judgement[sic] will be after death it will not be immediately after death. But there will be a time given for men to prepare for the judgement,[sic] just as a time was given for men to prepare for the second coming.”
Your interpretation here is impossible because the judgment is only for things that we have done while in our bodies living here on earth:. 2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. ”
Shem said: “ Proverbs 11: 7 “When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.”
What was meant by this? You have given a very reasonable interpretation. However, let us consider what the words mean. This is speaking of wicked men. What is a wicked man? Is a wicked man anyone who violates the law of God, or is it a term that refers only to those who knowingly, and willfully violate the law of God. You interpretation assumes it is an all encompassing term. But it doesn’t have to be. If a person never knew the commands of God are they still wicked, or are they simple deceived. With this understanding one could say that this proverb does not apply to those who sinned in ignorance, who had no understanding of God’s law. If it does not apply to those who sinned in ignorance, what is the fate of these?
A wicked man is anyone who doesn’t have faith, everyone without faith is by nature an object of God’s wrath and therefore wicked. See the scriptures below:
Titus 2:13-14 “…Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.”
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God”
Ephesians 2:3 “All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
If a person sins against God and doesn’t know it, they are still guilty and they still will be held responsible for their sin, see scripture below:
Leviticus 5:17 “”If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible.”
Men will all be without excuse:
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. ”
Shem said: “This idea can be seen in the Bible-Romans 7: 7 “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” Without the law one cannot truly sin, and cannot be truly labeled as being wicked.”
The Bible teaches us that even those without the law will “PERISH”:
Romans 2:12 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.”
That’s because men will be without excuse:
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. ”
Shem said: “We see that Christ preached the gospel to the spirits of those who had not yet heard the gospel, as they had died without the opportunity.”
First. As I pointed out in my last post, Noah was a “preacher of righteousness” to the people before the flood so they heard the gospel while they were living and refused to repent! That contradicts what you have said about them dying without the opportunity. They indeed had the opportunity!
Second. The context of the scripture says that Jesus preached specifically to the people who died in the flood. The context does NOT say he preached to everyone in Hell from the time of the flood up until Jesus descended into Hell.
Third. As I pointed out earlier, the people who died in the flood were being held for judgment, punishment and DESTRUCTION.
We see that this is done so that they have the same advantage as those of us who have heard the word preached in this life. In this way we see the great mercy of God, that he had prepared a way for all his children to receive his gospel, and have that chance to accept it.
The scripture teaches that all men will be without excuse Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. ”
Shem said: “The third reference you gave to prove what the verse could not mean was that of the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. This is a much better one. However, as Peter tells us that Christ did go to the spirits in prison I would simply say that the gulf dividing them was bridged by Christ. It remained a gulf when the parable was given, but after the Atonement Christ bridged it to take the gospel to them.”
Luke 16:26 “And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.”
The passage above says the chasm CANNOT be crossed, it is FIXED. If it was only temporary until Christ would come, this would have been reflected in the passage.
2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”
In the judgment we will be judged for what we have done in the body. That rules out your interpretation because death is the end of what we do in the body.
Shem said: “As I said, I do not want to get into a debate. I have simply given an alternative understanding of the passages. To me it makes more sense, and fits better with the wording given in the Bible. To you it may not. That is fine”
Your alternative understanding of the passages is diametrically apposed to the scriptures which is what happens when you take teachings that aren’t in the scripture and THEN try to get the bible to fit your teachings.
Leviticus 5:17 “”If a person sins and does what is forbidden in any of the LORD’s commands, even though he does not know it, he is guilty and will be held responsible.”
The verse above should make you and every LDS person tremble with great fear and terror and rightfully so, since you believe that obedience to the commandments is necessary to be forgiven! Therefore you had better begin searching to find out what sins you are committing that you are totally unaware of because you will be held guilty and responsible! Your in big trouble my friend, your heading down the path away from God and it worries me. We can help you and set you free from fear and terror so that you can live your life in complete peace with God, but, you must be willing to listen and examine what we say in light of scripture with an open heart. Trust me, you will never regret it! Your resistance to God’s word is hard-heartedness and hard heartedness will destroy your soul!
Anyways, I am gone for the weekend and will be unable to post until I return.
shematwater said,
June 12, 2010 at 11:41 am
ECHO
I can give different understandings of all the scriptures you use, just as I did the ones before.
Examples: Leviticus 5: 17. All men are accountable, but only after they are made aware of their sin. The required sacrifice laid out in the 18th verse shows that he has been made aware of his actions. A person has still transgressed, even if it is in ignorance, and must be held accountable, yes. But he cannot be held accountable until he has been taught that the act was a sin. Once he has been taught this he now knows, and thus must repent of it. This is what this is saying.
So, what of those who die never having been taught? When do they get the opportunity of learning their sin and of repenting of it? Yes, it says in Romans that no man has an excuse to deny God, but it does not say they have no excuse to not know the law. As I quoted before in Romans, one does not know if they sinned unless they have the law, and one cannot repent unless they know they have sinned. Thus, without the law one cannot repent. Nature is a great testiment to the existance of God, but it cannot teach us the law of God.
You also quote 2 Corinthian 2: 10 to say that we are judged by our works in this life. This is true, and I never denied it. But Peter says “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.” In other words, as it says in Leviticus, one cannot be held accountable until they know it is a sin, and so the gospel was preached to those who died without the law that they might have this knowledge, making the judgement of God perfect. They can be judged according to their works in the flesh because they now know the law.
Also, I never liked the NIV as it does change the meaning of several passages in the KJV. However, even with what it says here it does not have to have the meaning you give it. The Gospel was preached by Christ, as it says in the third chapter. As this letter is being written after this occured it would make sense for it to be in the past tense. It does not necessitate that the death came after the preaching.
Finally, refering to the Rich Man and Lazarus, if the gulf could not be bridged than how did Christ preach to them? Also, the wording of the story does allow what I said. What it says is that those who would cross could not, not that no one could. As I pointed out, the parable was told before the atonement, and before the gospel was taken to the dead. As such, when it was told, no one there had the power to cross. But, when Christ came and preached to the dead he obviously did cross. Which leave the very reasonable conclusion that the inability of others was changed by him.
These are just examples again of different understandings of the same scriptures. They still follow the rule of adding nothing and subtracting nothing, and there is no contradiction between them. So, who is right?
I can give very different understandings of each verse. In my studying of the scriptures I have found that I can give, just through my own thoughts, two or three interpretations of each verse that are very reasonable considering the wording of the scriptures. If I was just to trust what I read I would be very confused.
catzgalore said,
June 12, 2010 at 1:01 pm
Shem, you said.
Why are you quoting the D&C when we were discussing the Book of Mormon? It seems that the only reason you have for dismissing the Book of Mormon is that the LDS church believes in it. You have nothing from the book itself.
I’m not sure if I was the one that quoted it. Keeping up with this blog is sometimes difficult because LIFE gets in the way– and these posts get long, and I forget who said what, or even what we were talking about. Blame Old Age (me– I’m an old grandma, Shem), LOL
Shem, I admit I tend to kind of lump all your scriptures together. The main reason I believe they are false scriptures is that they were given by a false prophet. In your church, words have different meanings than plain English. What past leaders said is ignored and glossed over. History is changed. Horrible things are ignored. But you don’t see that. I pray that someday you do.
In the D&C verse you quoted, you say I am being simplistic. The VERSE is simplistic, and it should mean what it says– but typical of what I have seen of Mormon thinking– what has a plain meaning in English has some other meaning that only those in the LDS Church know. So we who don’t know what you think it means “aren’t getting the full meaning” or are being “simplistic”.
Your church isn’t alone in this. There are plenty of “Christian churches” out there that celebrate sin and re-word the Bible so it means what they want it to mean– so they can continue in their sin without feeling guilty– or so they can be legalistic and condemn everyone else.
Just so you know, I HAVE read some of the Book of Mormon. Not ALL of it; but enough to know it makes me feel sick when I see parts of the Bible re-worded and changed and with words added to “clarify” the Bible but in reality it changes the meaning.
And yes, part of the reason I do not believe the book of Mormon is because it is part of the Mormon church. Sorry, my human-ness is hanging out. When I read historical documents about the church, I am incredulous. But the church seems to deny things happened or say things like “he wasn’t speaking as a prophet” or “that was a teaching not doctrine”. Things that were once approved are no longer valid. So “old” teachings can be discredited. They can ignore whichever ones don’t fit any more! Or the ultimate, “that wasn’t published by the Church, so I don’t believe it.”
I know that not all LDS fit into a mold. Seth’s post (linked by him from another blog) about interpreting Mormon teachings was very enlightening– your church is just like any other in some ways, some hard-core and others who don’t really care much about living for the Lord (or living the LDS Lifestyle). Others have been in it for generations and that’s the only reason they are in the church.
Just now I went to the lds.org site and looked up the Book of Mormon. I started reading the Title Page and the Introduction… so here’s the first thing I disagree with, and it isn’t even to the text yet!
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible
NOTHING is comparable to the Bible.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation
I don’t believe this. Are there other copies of these “ancient manuscripts” anywhere? Why golden plates, and why were they not allowed to be public for everyone to see as other manuscripts would be? I am not looking for answers, obviously, you have none that would satisfy me.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
Joseph Smith put the Book of Mormon above the Bible!
So if I disagree several times in the Introduction do you think I will agree with the book? I would NEVER even PRAY to find out if the Book of Mormon is correct, mainly because Smith declared it more important than the Bible.
You post on this blog, so we might assume that you are interested in what Becki is saying. The truth is you are only here to confront and defend. I pray for you, and I know Becki, and others do too, that the Lord would soften your hard heart and you could see the truth– YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU NEVER WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH. But Jesus is!!!!
Massey Nathanael said,
June 13, 2010 at 10:31 am
Catz-YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU NEVER WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH.. But Jesus is!!!!
Me–this is a fact that all Christians and even mormons hold which is why they feel that a legalistic stance on the sacraments i.e ( do them, every Sunday, a specific way) in order to “get back” to God
approaching the argument in this way serves to do nothing but foster an air of contention. I am not perfect at showing love in all of my post or conversation(s) however that IS what we are called to do
Perhaps a rewording side by side with scripture proofs and even mormon contradictions would be a better approach?
This question is for Shem–Mormons tell us to Pray to see if the book of mormon is true! Why is that?
you wouldn’t pray to see that what Joseph Smith gave as “eyewitness” testimony were true would you?
What about the bio of a favorite president?
Friend?
Girlfriend?
How about you parents?
the qur’an?
The satanic bible?
Would the Holy spirit ask you to
pray about committing murder?
or worshiping an idol
is this the wisdom that James 1 verse 5 is talking about?
or is the wisdom found in what is written in the Bible?
i
catzgalore said,
June 14, 2010 at 9:58 am
Massey, you are not good enough either. Neither am I. If we were good enough, if we could do enough, we would not need a Savior.
I’m an old grandma who has never been good at taking scriptures and compare and contrast. I’m a bit dyslexic and ADD to the core (you don’t know how many times I check over my posts before I send!!) What I do know is Jesus loves me. ME!!! I made a lot of bad decisions in my life. I tried to be a “good girl” and never measured up to my parents’ expectations, or my husband’s for that matter. I didn’t live up to my “potential” according to my teachers. I followed all the Rules the best I could. But I still felt condemned by my black heart. I did what I was “supposed” to do to get “right with the Lord” and never felt like He really accepted me. I tried this and that to make myself right. I tried different churches, prayed different ways. Some ways satisfied for a while, but ultimately, nothing was permanent.
Finally God let me see this big truth. LINDA, YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU NEVER WILL BE. But JESUS IS!!!! Hallelujah! It isn’t what LINDA did that washed me white as snow, it is what JESUS did!! He LOVES me. He wants me to love others because He loves me not for what’s in it for me!!
Massey, it is the most loving thing I could ever do to point out that someone isn’t good enough. To point out that we’re all in the same boat. We’re all humans standing here before a Holy God KNOWING we don’t measure up. We try so hard. We volunteer down at the soup kitchen. We hand out twenty dollars to the homeless folks we meet. Some of us humans donate millions to Good Causes just hoping it will be enough. But it isn’t. If we are honest, we know we could never be holy enough! We could never be good enough. All the good we do in a lifetime is like a tiny drop in the bucket.
Isn’t it actually a blessing to know that?? To know that even though my puny self can’t be good enough, God provided a way? That Jesus’ sacrifice was EFFECTUAL and paid for ALL my sins? So now I can love freely with the love He gave me and stop worrying about being GOOD ENOUGH? Because no, I am not.
But Jesus IS!!!!
And Massey, why is what you are writing loving and caring? Is “scripture proofs” really what Shem is asking for? I don’t think so. LDS interpret things differently that traditional Christianity. Seth showed that *bang* he could shoot me down. And Shem is pretty good at showing us what LDS believe. I appreciate how difficult it is to keep on defending their church and I admire their tenacity.
What all of us need is to see just how big God our Creator is!! To see how deep His love is! To see the depth of what He did for us! To know that He loves us and to know that He won’t stop loving us when we fall. Because we will, no matter how hard we try not to get tripped up.
There’s something that I pray for ALL of us that post on this blog… that we would see Jesus. That we would see the blackness of our hearts contrasted with the pure heart of Jesus. To see that no, we aren’t good enough. We can’t be good enough. But JESUS is good enough– we can truly call HIM our Savior.
Oh the deep, deep love of Jesus,
Vast unmeasured, boundless, free!
Rolling as a mighty ocean in its fullness over me!
Underneath me, all around me, is the current
Of Thy love
Leading onward, leading homeward to
Thy glorious rest above!
Oh the deep, deep love of Jesus,
Spread His praise from shore to shore!
How He loveth, ever loveth, changeth
never, nevermore!
How He watches o’er His loved ones,
died to call them all His own
how for them He intercedeth, watcheth
o’er them from the throne!
Oh the deep, deep love of Jesus,
‘Tis a heav’n of heav’ns to me
And it lifts me up to glory, for it lifts me up to Thee!
(words by Samuel Francis, 1834-1925)
catzgalore said,
June 14, 2010 at 10:00 am
and LOL see I didn’t check this post enough. There’s a boo boo. My html tags are not quite right. Oh well, Thank you Jesus for loving my imperfect self. 🙂
latterdaysaintwoman said,
June 14, 2010 at 10:54 am
Catz,
Amen and amen! You are describing my life to the tee, and, using the same witnessing method as Jesus used with the rich young ruler:
“And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God“. Jesus was quoting scripture when He said these words: from Psalm 14:2-3, Psalm 55:3, and Ecclesiastes 7:20.
The Prophet Isaiah claimed that ALL have gone astray (53:6) and that all our righteousness is like filthy rags in God’s eyes (Isaiah 64:6).
The Prophet Jeremiah testified that the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked (Jeremiah 17:9)
Each person is so evil that through the revelation of the Holy Ghost, Paul wrote that by nature, we are “the children of wrath, even as others.” (Eph 2:3)
The entire Bible can be summarized into two categories: the Law and the Gospel. God gave His law so that when we looked into the mirror of it, we would see just how sinful we are and see just how much we need someone to rescue us. The Gospel is the good news that Jesus DID rescue us–in spite of how sinful we are.
We see this concept in miniature in Galatians 3:10-14. Every human is cursed because we cannot continue to follow God’s law. But, praise to God that He sent His Son to be cursed for us, in our place, as our substitute:
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. 11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them. 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
The very reason that we are to point out someones sinfulness to them is so they will recognize that they cannot be saved through obedience–NO ONE CAN!!!! As Paul explains:
“But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.” Ga 3:22-24
catzgalore said,
June 14, 2010 at 11:15 am
I’m not trying to use a witnessing method or anything, just speaking my heart. I know how awful it is to be in the place of knowing I am not good enough. If it weren’t for the fact that I know that God sees Jesus in me, I would have nothing at all. The mercy of God is so incredible. I certainly don’t claim to understand.
Take me to Jesus….. that would be Heaven to me… (from the song that is running through my head, by Phillips, Craig and Dean)
Massey Nathanael said,
June 14, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Catz– is “scripture proofs” really what Shem is asking for?
Me–that’s EXACTLY what he is asking for
he “combats” scripture with the stuff he has been feed his whole life by a men holding what they say above that of GOD
with any argument it is best not only to know both sides but to uses ones own logic against the truth which is all we owe anyone
whether he chooses to accept the gift the of truth is between is above our pay grade ours is not to choose those who will accept it– the statement YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH. YOU NEVER WILL BE GOOD ENOUGH.. But Jesus is!!!! –does nothing except perhaps foster misinterpretation and contention setting a stumbling block to the truth–trust me you tell me I am not good enough without explaining why you would say that i WILL roll away
all I ask is that with statements such as these that a proof is called for in this case Romans 3:23.
Catz–Massey, you are not good enough either.
trust me I know, I am a physically challenged man wracked with guilt over what his biological mother and her family said and did I started believing them–which is a sin perhaps not physical but a sin just the same which ultimately without Christ would have led to physical sin(Rom 3:23)
the truth is there is still some mental garbage there–the truth is no matter how many communions I take I can’t earn Christ
what I can do is believe and confess that Christ died to heal(2 Peter 2:24 those sinful thoughts and the sins “of anger,shame, and guilt “and I did not ask for it HE volunteered and waiting until I accepted(Joshua 1:9).
shematwater said,
June 14, 2010 at 2:10 pm
CATZ
You are right that I have very little desire to be “converted” to any other religion, and so my motivation for being here is not what you might expect. However, defend is not exactly what my motivation is. Truth needs no defense as it can never be overturned.
My motivation is correction and explanation. After all, truth can only win out if that is what you are fighting. However, if you attack lies with lies no one wins.
As to being to simplistic, the reason I say this is that you are not considering other comments and scriptures that give a deeper meaning to this one verse. To take one verse and claim it as the doctrine is to simplistic for any religion.
Take baptism. It is written that “He who believes and is baptized shall be saved.” (Mark 16: 16) It would be far to simplistic to simply say that a person who “Professes Faith” and is dunked in some water is saved. However, this could be very easily taken from this one scripture. We must look to all the scriptures for a full understanding of what a single verse means.
I will also say that I have no intention of converting anyone on these threads. It is not the proper medium for such. As such I will not attampt to answer any of your objections, except to point out that Joseph Smith was not putting the Book of Mormon above, or even equal to the Bible. However, that doesn’t matter. All your objections to the Book of Mormon and the LDS church all boil down to simple faith, which is the same reason I don’t have these objections. The only proof you have that Joseph Smith was a false prophet is your belief that he was. The only proof I have that he was is my belief. Once we can both accept this the tensions and antaganistic words would likely disappear.
Oh yeah, we must both also recognize that neither of us is going to convert the other, so we might as well stop trying. My only intention is to get the truth about the LDS church out there, because there are many false teachings regarding us in circulation.
MASSEY
Actually, yeah, we are counselled to pray about everything. We are even counseled to ask for the Guidance of God when buy a new car. Every book we read we are constantly praying about the contents and what we can learn from it. I have, for some time, wanted to read the qur’an to learn new things. Now, I have no desire to read the “satanic” scriptures, simply because God has already instructed me not too. However, he says nothing against reading the qur’an, and as such I hope to one day read it.
I also want to find a good copy of the Apacrypha and read that, as well as all the other ancient documents that people claim were written by ancient Apostles and prophets. They can all teach me something, if I read them under the guidance of the Spirit.
I do not take the Book of Mormon, the Bible, the Doctirne and Covenants, the Pearl of Great Price, the words of Joseph Smith, or any other writtne or spoken words unless the Spirit of God has witnessed to me that it is true. If I do not receive the witness when I hear or read the words I go to God in prayer to ask him.
This is the most fundamental aspect of the LDS church (accept for faith). Never accept anything without a personal assurance from God.
Now, conserning the other things you mention, you are just being silly. If I pray about the scriptures and have been told by God that they are true, then I can say, without further prayer, that murder and idol worship is wrong. If I did have to pray about it I would be very weak in my testimony and would be worried that God wouldn’t even answer such.
However, under extreme circumstances I may be forced into a cituation and prayer would be my only way to know what to do. In other words, it may be appropriate to bow down with friend when he worships his gods to maintain relations, such a Naaman the Syrian did (2 Kings 5: 17-18). There may also be a time when taking another life seems necessary, and I will need to ask the Lord if I am justified in doing so, like Nephi being commanded to slay Laban (1 Nephi 4: 10-18).
So, in a sense I think the Lord wants us to pray about everything we do, and he will guide us. Speaking of Abraham in marrying Hagar and in offering Isaac the Lord has said “Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.” (D&C 132: 36). Whatever the Lord commands cannot be sin. So, I will pray to him in all things that I do, and what he tells me to do, that will I do. This is what Abraham did, and it counted to him for righteousness. I can think of few better people to take example from.
echoechoecho said,
June 14, 2010 at 7:52 pm
Shem. As I pointed out twice. Jesus preached to the people who died in the flood and they weren’t in ignorance as you claim. Noah was a preacher of righteousness and he condemned those people while they were still alive.
Give me scripture verses that show that Jesus preached in Hell to those who died after the flood.
shematwater said,
June 15, 2010 at 9:01 am
ECHO
Give me a scripture that says that those before the flood are in a different Hell than those after the flood.
As the passage says “Which SOMETIME were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah.”
Peter is not saying these were the only people preached to, but is giving an example. Or, in other words, “Some of the people he preached to lived at the time of Noah.”
Christ preached to the spirits in Prison, meaning all the spirits in prison. There is no scriptural basis to say that there is more than one Hell or prison, and so the reasonable conclusion is that he preached to all those who had died before who were in prison, and Peter is simply giving an example. I can think of a few reasons to use these men as an examples, but the greatest would be to show how far reaching the atonement really is, that it not only saves us, but reaches far into the past.
shematwater said,
June 15, 2010 at 9:44 am
Let me explain that a little better.
I emphasized the time Simetime for a reason, but I think the reason is missing in my post.
What this is saying is that the people refered to were wicked “sometime” which would indicate that they were not wicked “all the time.” The passage than tells us when they were wicked, which was “in the days of Noah.” But if the people in prison were wicked in the time of Noah, when were they not wicked (as indicated by the term “sometime”).
This is why I say that Peter is simply pulling out an example, or saying “some of them” rather than meaning that these were all of them. The men at the time of Noah were wicked, but this was only one group among those in prison. As such, Christ preached to the spirits in prison, and as a hole there were times that some were wicked, such as in the days of Noah.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 15, 2010 at 12:19 pm
You first said–Now, conserning the other things you mention, you are just being silly
Me–by this I assume you mean when I speak of the biographies, murder and talking to people
But you then said–So, in a sense I think the Lord wants us to pray about everything we do
Verily I say unto you, Nay; for I, the Lord, commanded it.” (D&C 132: 36). Whatever the Lord commands cannot be sin.
Me–So you would use “religion” to justify murder without provocation if “told” to do so just like hundreds of socio-paths before?
Isaiah 8:20 says, “To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them
Gods word 1. is the Bible
2. God Made flesh John 1;1
Does God condone murder? or does he Command “Thou shalt not murder”
Shem–There may also be a time when taking another life seems necessary, and I will need to ask the Lord if I am justified in doing so,
Me-Would you not defend your daughter from a rapist? Your family from a socio-pathic killer? is that not justified?
Exodus 22 “If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;
Me–God never tells anyone to pray for truth concerning what He has written; he tells us to pray for wisdom to persevere in tests and troubles (James 12-14)Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him. When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.
To think that one WOULD receive such a revelation is dangerous
(Jame 1 6-9) but when he asks, he must believe and not doubt, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. That man should not think he will receive anything from the LORD; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all he does.
in order that we may understand what has been commanded in his word which was given through Christ as the fulfillment of His(Gods) revelation we are asked to search the Bible to see if what He had written was true
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” (Act 17:11)
The command to pray for the “truth” of the BOM comes directly from that book..Yes?
Christians and Mormons believe that although Satan is a liar he mixes just enough truth within to be dangerous . Could it not be asked that the prayer about the BOM could be one such revelation?
echoechoecho said,
June 15, 2010 at 8:17 pm
Your interpretation of “sometime” is a twisting of scripture. The word in the greek actually means “In times past” which would be translated as “Which in times past were disobedient”
Your saying that this is an “example” is “adding” to scripture something it doesn’t say nor suggest.
As I said before, there is no reason for Jesus to preach the gospel to those in Hell, they had their chance to avoid Hell while they were on the earth but they didn’t repent. The Bible says they will be without excuse. It also says that those who die without the law will PERISH.
As I have shown before, (and for which you didn’t address every scripture I gave but you only tempted everyone to sin by trusting in man rather than God), everyone who doesn’t have faith in Jesus is defined as wicked.
Proverbs 11: 7 “When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.”
Those who died in the flood were wicked and they died. Their hope perished upon their death.
As I also have shown, we are judged for things done in the body.
shematwater said,
June 16, 2010 at 9:59 am
ECHO
But you still have not shown me two separate hells.
I would also point out that you are interpreting the passage in chapter four as being separate from that in chapter three. They are not. Christ went and and preached to the spirits in prison as stated in chapter three, but for the cause as stated in chapter four. What was the cause? Verse 4 “Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you.” Because the gentiles had not known the laws of God Christ preached to the spirits in prison.
As to using the example in chapter three, I agree it was not clear. However, when we realize that chapter four is simply a continuation of this we see that the idea of example is logical.
“Christ preached to those in prison who were wicked in their life, like those who lived at the time of time of Noah. He did preached to the dead because many of them did not have a full understanding of the gospel, as we have seen among the gentiles.”
Quite honestly, this is what I see the passages saying. Of course, if you can use other translations I could also use other translations, like the JST which gives 1 Peter 3: 20 as “Some of whom were disobedient in the days of Noah.”
Now, you can always claim you are using the original Greek, but that is impossible to prove. I can claim I have direct confirmation from God himself that this is the intended meaning, that is also impossible to prove.
I can always make the argument that there are errors even in the Greek words you have, while you can always make the argument that Satan is deceiving me. Great.
You still have not proven your point, that truth can be learned simply by reading the Bible.
Question: If all we need to lern truth is to read the Bible, why are there so many different interpretations?
MASSEY
“So you would use “religion” to justify murder without provocation if “told” to do so just like hundreds of socio-paths before?”
You misunderstand me, and I almost believe it is intentional. However, technically, if God did command such it would not be sin.
I do not use “religion” to justify sin. Did I ever mention unprovoked action in my last post? No. I said that if a time came where such seemed right to me I would ask God if I was justified.
Yes, God gave many laws in the Old Testiment, but these are not the laws of our country. If a thief came into my house who was unarmed and I killed him I would not be justified, because such is illegal in the United States. If he was armed and thus posed an immediate threat to me our my family I would be justified.
Everything is very relative when it comes to our actions on this Earth. Even take the case of Rape since you brought it up. Under the Law of Moses there were different laws governing it. Read it all again. A man who rapes a virgin has to marry her. He is not killed. However, a man who rapes a married women is killed. But even this is made relative on the part of the woman. If the rape occurs in town and she does not cry out she is also killed, having submitted to the man. But in a field where no one can hear her she is not killed.
Now, I know of very few people in the modern day who can read this and not be appauled. A woman marrying her rappist! What could God be thinking? But this is the law that was followed until the Israelites were conquered. Under this law the father was not justified in killing the man, for the law stipulated that the man had to marry and care for his daughter. In killing him he would have caused more harm to his daughter in depriving her of the support of the man. (See Deut 22)
Today we live under different laws, and so justification for our actions is relative to those laws and our current circumstances. As such, the laws given in the Bible will not always justify us, but we must seek to know the will of God today as concerning these things.
So, I repeat, that in all things I will ask God if what I plan to do is the right choice for me to make at the time. It may be that I am justified in killing the theif who enters my house. However, it may be that I have been called to bring him to repentance, and killing him would prevent this. Only God can tell me what I need to do.
echoechoecho said,
June 16, 2010 at 1:07 pm
Shem said: “But you still have not shown me two separate hells.”
I don’t believe in two separate Hells.
I would also point out that you are interpreting the passage in chapter four as being separate from that in chapter three. They are not. Christ went and and preached to the spirits in prison as stated in chapter three, but for the cause as stated in chapter four. What was the cause? Verse 4 “Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you.” Because the gentiles had not known the laws of God Christ preached to the spirits in prison.
If you want to interpret scripture correctly you can neither add nor subtract from the Bible. The Gentiles do not need to have the law preached to them in Hell. You are subtracting from scripture when you say: “Because the gentiles had not known the laws of God Christ preached to the spirits in prison.”
Your suggesting that people will die without ever having known the law and that they need to know the law in order to obey it. So Christ gives them a second chance after they die to hear the law and obey it and then get out of Hell.
I am telling you that God has provided everything necessary for man to avoid Hell and he has provided it in THIS LIFE before they die. God has provided in such a way that man is left without excuse when they die.
Everyone knows the laws of God because God has written it on their hearts so that they will be without excuse. Everyone has a conscience:
Romans 2:14-15 “(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)”
There is no scriptural support in favor of people having a second chance after they die to accept the Gospel and escape Hell. There is ample scriptural support that once a person die’s and goes to Hell, they remain there for all eternity because God has left them without excuse in this life.
To interpret scripture the way you do requires you to subtract from God’s word the following:
2 Corinthians 5:10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. ”
We are judged for things done in the body, not out of the body. And since we are judged for things done in the body, death is the end of the things we can do in the body and therefore is the end of any hope we have of changing our eternal destiny. Even you Shem will not be able to stand in the judgment claiming your ignorance while clinging to your LDS teaching that you can progress beyond the grave. You are not in ignorance any longer because I have now shown you the truth. You may not believe me, but you still will be held guilty and responsible.
You have NO scriptural support for being judged for things done in the spirit without the body.
You have subtracted the following also:
Romans 1:20 “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities – his eternal power and divine nature – have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Men will be without excuse. It is here in this world where we live that God has left men without excuse.
You have subtracted the following also:
The Bible teaches us that even those without the law will “PERISH”:
Romans 2:12 “All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law.”
People without the law will PERISH apart from the law. They Perish! That is because in this world, God has left man without excuse! This life is the time and the place that all eternity rests on. The instant we die is the instant our eternal destiny is set in stone as Irrevocable and unchangeable.
Shem said: “Christ preached to those in prison who were wicked in their life, like those who lived at the time of time of Noah. He did preached to the dead because many of them did not have a full understanding of the gospel, as we have seen among the gentiles.”
Quite honestly, this is what I see the passages saying. Of course, if you can use other translations I could also use other translations, like the JST which gives 1 Peter 3: 20 as “Some of whom were disobedient in the days of Noah.”
Everyone in Hell is considered as disobedient as those in Noah’s day. God said that “every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.”
Hebrews 11:6 “And without faith it is impossible to please God”
Everything anyone does that they think is “good” doesn’t necessarily please God. Many unbelievers do many things that they think are “good”. But if they died without faith, all the good they ever did never pleased God. “without faith it is impossible to please God” God will say to them: “they did only evil continually”
Unfortunately, Mormonism falls into this category of not having faith in the Jesus written about in the Bible. Mormonism has a whole different Jesus which is what happens when you add and subtract from God’s word. You won’t be able to claim ignorance on this once you die either, for because I have told you here and now, you are without excuse. You can reject this teaching but you will still be without excuse because you alone take the responsibility for rejecting it and you alone refuse to at least consider this teaching with an open mind and heart to God’s word.
Shem said: “Now, you can always claim you are using the original Greek, but that is impossible to prove. I can claim I have direct confirmation from God himself that this is the intended meaning, that is also impossible to prove.”
Check any concordance if you want to know the original Greek. It’s not impossible to prove. But your direct confirmation from God is impossible to prove. The problem is your using an archaic bible with archaic language. The KJV was a great and perfect Bible in it’s day and in it’s day it was easily understood. However since language usage and meanings changes over time, God would not be pleased with a Bible that no longer is easily understood by everyone. The language of the KJV is outdated and only keeps people in the dark.
Shem said: “I can always make the argument that there are errors even in the Greek words you have, while you can always make the argument that Satan is deceiving me. Great. You still have not proven your point, that truth can be learned simply by reading the Bible. “ The truth can be learned by simply reading the bible but you resist the words written in the Bible, you doubt the words therein, you don’t believe it is sufficient even when it says it is, in other words, you don’t believe God’s word, which is why you can’t learn the truth from it.
When the scripture states that “God justifies the ungodly”, you refuse to believe God and would rather believe the one man Joseph Smith who said that “God doesn’t justify the ungodly.” Is it any wonder to you then why you can’t learn truth by simply reading the Bible? You can’t learn truth by simply reading the Bible because you don’t believe the Bible to be true. His word does not dwell in you. You do not come to Jesus to have life wherein God justifies the ungodly, you instead go to the scriptures to find out how you can possess eternal life on your own because you believe God doesn’t justify the ungodly. You don’t have faith in Jesus, you have faith in yourself. The Bible teaches that without faith it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God and when you die, your going to be without excuse and will not be able to change your eternal destiny. So you should heed that warning and find out if what I am saying is true before you die!
John 5:38-40 “nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life.”
Shem said: Question: If all we need to lern[sic] truth is to read the Bible, why are there so many different interpretations?”
There are so many different interpretations because people much like Joseph Smith and his successors and followers add and subtract from God’s word.
God warned us about false teachers and false prophets and that is why there are so many different interpretations. The Bible was written just for you so that you would know who those false teachers and false prophets are but you refuse to listen to God.
shematwater said,
June 17, 2010 at 9:32 am
Going back to my original post, that personal revelation is needed, and more particularly, that it was had by men in the Old Testiment.
I was reading in Job the other day, and came across this very nice verse.
(Job 32: 8) “But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.”
Elihu says this as the reason he feels qualified to answer Job and the other three. Because he has the inspiration of God. He saty quiet, letting his elders speak, but when they could not give a satisfactory answer he stood to give his. Elihu was not a prophet. If he was he would have been consulted first. He was a man, like the other three friends, and a young man at that. Yet he had the inspiration of God that gave him understanding.
Even Job, who also was not a prophet, was blessed with a vision of God, (Job 42: 5) proving that it was not just the prophets that received divine revelation. The difference is that Job and Elihu received personal revelation, while the prophets received public revelation, or revelation for the world.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
June 18, 2010 at 3:14 pm
Shem,
God’s wrath was kindled against Elihu, because he did not speak the truth!! There is not one word that we can trust that is written in the book of Job by his friends because of this. Elihu was NOT qualified to answer Job through inspiration–even though he believed he was!!! God reprimanded Elihu and his two friend and told them to go and offer burnt offerings because of their folly:
“And it was so, that after the LORD had spoken these words unto Job, the LORD said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath. 8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for hima will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.” (Job 42:7-8)
You see, millions of people “think” they have received personal inspiration from God, but haven’t. One can know for a certainty by comparing the words they speak, with God’s inspired scripture.
shematwater said,
June 18, 2010 at 5:45 pm
LATTERDAYSAINTWOMAN
God’s wrath was not kindled against Elihu. Read it again. He spoke against Eliphaz and his two friends, who were Bildad and Zophar. These were the three that God was angry with. Not Elihu. Elihu had spoken right, and had spoken under the inspiration of God. There are many things to be learned from the Book of Job, especially from the words of Elihu (chapters 32-36)and the words of the Lord himself (chapters 37-41). We read that Job saw the Lord personally in chapter 42.
You need to go back and read the book again if you think Elihu was in any way connected to Eliphaz, Bildad, and Zophar.
shematwater said,
June 18, 2010 at 6:43 pm
ECHO
I have subtracted nothing from the Bible. You have given no verse that states all people know the law, and thus no verse that states all people have the chance to obey it.
Going back to the quote in Leviticus 5: 17-18 that states that even acts done in ignorance are judged we can see that doctrine I am presenting, that one must first know the law. The simple fact that the person has to perform a sacrifice shows that they must first be made aware that it was a sin. If they are not made aware they have no opportunity to give the offering, and thus no opportunity to repent of it.
Second, I gave the very clear quote in Romans 7: 7 in which Paul stated that without the Law one cannot no sin. But let me go a little farther and quote verses 8 and nine of the same chapter.
“But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. FOR WITHOUT THE LAW SIN WAS DEAD. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.”
If there is no law there is no sin, and without knowing the law one cannot know the sin. Thus, as demonstrated in Leviticus, one must be brought to an understanding of their sin before they can repent of it.
As to Romans 1: 20, this applies only to the existance of God. No man has an excuse to deny that God exists. This cannot mean that they have no excuse to know the law of God, because if it did there would be no point in the ministry of the Apostles. The entire command to teach the gentiles in contradicted in this idea. This idea is shown in Acts 14: 16-17, “Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways. Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness.”
God left all men to their our devices, to live their own laws, without revealing his to them. But he still left a witness of his existance. Both this passage and Romans 1: 20 show that no man has an accuse to deny God’s existance, but from Acts we see that many were not given his laws.
Then, if you are to interpret Romans 2: 14-15 as you do, what would be the point of joining the Christian faith. After all, as long as we follow the law we are justified. It makes no sense, and again negates the command to teach the gospel. These verses are not saying that the gentiles have the law, but that if they live a good, honest life they will be judged by that, and not by their lack of knowledge of the law.
Cross reference this with Luke 12: 47-48 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But HE THAT KNEW NOT, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
Here Christ himself affirms that not all have the required knowledge of the law. While all will be judge by their actions, the penalty will be relative to their knowledge. What Paul is saying is that all will be punished for their actions, and the gentiles, who have not the proper knowledge but still are fairly righteous will get a lighter sentence than the sinners among those who have the knowledge.
None of this tells us that the gentiles had the law, or understood it. All it tells us is that some, because of an inner conscience, are more righteous than others.
The same verses you use I can give very different meanings, and no I am not subtracting from the Bible. I am subtracting from YOUR interpretation of the Bible. I have supported everything I said with additional references from the Bible.
As to the preaching in the Spirit World, when did I ever say people would be judged for what was done there? I never did. I said that they were taught the gospel there so that they may have a chance to repent, and thus the judgement for their actions here will be the same as those who had that chance here.
You also say that I teach second chances. I never have. I have said that those who did not have the law (like the gentiles described by Peter) had not yet gotten the chance to repent, for God let them live their own laws. There is no second chance, but there must be a first chance for all men, which is given to some through the preaching of the gospel to the spirits. This is what I have said.
Yes, those who were wicked at the time of Noah were there, but simply because all those who die without the spirit are in prison, and thus the gospel was preached to all of them as a whole. I do not believe that those who had the chance at the time of Noah are given another chance, but they definitely heard the preaching of the Gospel.
You have claimed that I taught two thinks that I never taught, which seems to be your only basis for the accusation of subtracting from the Bible.
As to the translations, if you want to trust the wisdom of man to the point of deny all possibility of error, that is up to you. However, there is no way to know that even the oldest copy of the epistles written by Paul are those that he actually penned personally, and as such you cannot prove that this was the original wording. That is all I meant. History is a tricky thing, and it is very difficult to determine the origin of papers beyond a certian point. We can know that he wrote these epistles, and to this general effect, but we cannot be certain that the transcriptions and translations are not in error.
Thus, neither one of us can prove beyond doubt that we are right. On one hand we have you claiming the wisdom of men as proof of your interpretation. On the other we have mean, admitting that I have no proof to give you, but have God to prove it to me.
As to the hole “Justifying the Ungodly” thing, our opinions are only that, and have no proof behind them. You say I am believing a man, and I say I am following a prophet. But neither of us can prove what we say.
Anyway, for this particular verse I do not need Joseph Smith to see that it is in error. Let us look at a few other examples of the use of the term Ungodly in the Bible.
1 Peter 4: 18 “And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”
Peter seems to be condemning the Ungodly.
2 Peter 3: 7 “But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
Perdition is equated with Satan and Hell. If the Ungodly are reserved for this how are they justified.
2 Peter 2: 9 (in verses 4-5 Peter speaks to the Flood and Sodom as the destruction of the Ungodly, followed by this statement) “The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished.”
Again we have a reference to the Ungodly being punished.
Lastly, in Jude it is the Undgodly who are condemned as corrupting the church.
With all these references to the punishment of the Ungodly, and reserving them for perdition (or Hell), is is logical to say they are justified? Of course not. Thus there seems to be an error in the Bible, and I am more willing to believe that the one verse is in error rather than all of these.
I do not need Joseph Smith to see that the Bible has errors in translation. He simply helped me see what the correct translation was.
latterdaysaintwoman said,
June 18, 2010 at 6:52 pm
Shem,
You are right and I am wrong. Thanks for clearing that up, I had thought it was against all of Job’s friends.
shematwater said,
June 19, 2010 at 9:45 am
LDSWOMAN
That is okay.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 19, 2010 at 9:00 pm
Shem–I do not use “religion” to justify sin
Me-it’s a sin to defend ones home and family against murders and FYI–in this day and age even thieves have weapons
God gave many laws in the Old Testiment, but these are not the laws of our country.
Me– He in the NT said this!!
Mark 12:17 “Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s”
Rom 13:1-7 ” Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordaineda of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: 4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour
These verses tell us that we should “render to Ceaser” and be subject to the “higher powers” meaning the laws put in place by man,
the law says that the penalty for cold-blooded murder is death and that of self-defense may even go free; by obeying that mandate would God be disobeyed? God has much to say about self-defense when taken in context it is completely different from vengence
Shem-have been called to bring him to repentance, and killing him would prevent this.have been called to bring him to repentance, and killing him would prevent this.
Me–this may well be the case as you are concerned but man posses free-will and as such can refuse to hear what you have to say. Isn’t it rather naive’ to assume everyone will accept salvation? when Christ clearly says this in not the case.
echoechoecho said,
June 20, 2010 at 11:29 pm
Shem said: “With all these references to the punishment of the Ungodly, and reserving them for perdition (or Hell), is is logical to say they are justified? Of course not. Thus there seems to be an error in the Bible, and I am more willing to believe that the one verse is in error rather than all of these.”
The LDS has subtracted the verse where God justifies the UNGODLY:
Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
I believe the bible is inerrant. I believe God justifies the ungodly. I believe that the ungodly are reserved for perdition.
Shem, it is a SIN to subtract from the Bible in order to make the Bible fit the doctrine of your church. This is how people corrupt true biblical teaching and end up with false teaching.
shematwater said,
June 21, 2010 at 9:29 am
ECHO
I do apologize for some of my words. I do tend to get defensive of some things, which causes me to miss speak.
However, it is not sin to subtract from the Bible. It is sin to subtract from the word of God. Now, you believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, and that is fine. The Bible itself does not mandate this, and as such I can believe that translation errors have occured without subtracting from the word of God.
The problem here is that you cannot separate the “Word of God” and the “Bible” where I can, and am thus not bound by the same riggid thought that you are. It is a contradiction to say that Christ justifies the ungodly, and then to say that they are cast into hell. As the “Word of God” cannot contradict itself the Bible must be in error, and is therefore not the inerrant word, but a flawed rendering of the word.
MASSEY
When did I ever make the assumption that all people would here the gospel? I said that if God told me that I was to bring the thief to repentance than that is what I should do. If God tells me to do so he has a reason. It may be that God knows that this particular thief will listen and believe. It may be that God wants me to try to teach me a lesson. I do not know, but if he tells me to do something I must do it or I have sinned.
It is the same as with Abraham. God had said that killing the innocent was wrong, declaring so to Noah (who was still alive in the days of Abraham). Yet, when God commanded Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, Abraham did not hesitate, but went and did as he was commanded. Abraham did not know what God had planned, and the command seemed to contradict the promise of a nation born of Isaac. But God had commanded and Abraham obeyed.
In like manner, regardless of the cercumstances, if God commands I must obey. To do anything else would be sin, even if there was an apparent contradiction.
rlofferdahl said,
June 21, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Shem;
You say, “It is a contradiction to say that Christ justifies the ungodly, and then to say that they are cast into hell.”
There is no contradiction. God justifies the ungodly.
“But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions – it is by grace you have been saved.” Ephesians 2:4
Those cast into hell are those who, in their stubborness, refuse to believe this very truth.
RLO
Massey Nathanael said,
June 21, 2010 at 5:44 pm
Shem–Abraham did not know what God had planned, and the command seemed to contradict the promise of a nation born of Isaac. But God had commanded and Abraham obeyed.
In like manner, regardless of the cercumstances,
Me- when this narrative was transcribed the law “the Ten commandment” and their “Clari factions” God Gave revelation via voice or physical metaphor.
Me–it may very well be that on a better day I am to roll up to a rapist/murder and have a conversation with him but if he refuse, threatens my family and property far beit for me not to protect a loved one which playing devil’s advocate can be backed by scripture.
Echo If I may..
Shem and you are discussing the Mormon view of the “outer darkness” can I offer 2cents?
Mormons and Christians agree that He died on the cross, descended into Hell and rose after 3 days and 3 nites the KJV say 1 Peter 3:19) “to preach to those in prison”
The Greek translation would read like this “to Herald or proclaim to those in prison”
Proclamation refer to 4:6–“for this cause”–the cause was that of who Christ is and what He stands for
Those meaning spirits(pneuna) or “air, breathe” the same word is used in refer to a demons; these spirits are referred to in Jude 6
Prison in this sense would be a place of captivity for those fallen angels, the spirits needing a place of captivity because they were not created as humans
Verse 18 says Christ suffered once for sin why would he do so a 2nd time?–the Bible is empathetic about giving humanity only life on earth as a chance at salvation–Hebrews 6:4-6 ; 10:26-29
So what did Christ due in Hell? He Proclaimed to the Fallen angels,demons and those that rejected His offer of salvation His victory on the Cross..Not to give them a Second chance
echoechoecho said,
June 21, 2010 at 11:51 pm
Shem said: “However, it is not sin to subtract from the Bible. It is sin to subtract from the word of God. Now, you believe the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, and that is fine. The Bible itself does not mandate this, and as such I can believe that translation errors have occurred[sic] without subtracting from the word of God.”
By deleting Romans 4:5 you have deleted the entire Bible since the entire message of the scripture is found in the 4 words: “God justifieth the ungodly.”
Jesus came to justify the ungodly. The LDS doesn’t believe this. Therefore the LDS doesn’t have faith in Jesus, they have faith in themselves.
Those who have faith in themselves are cast into Hell.
shematwater said,
June 22, 2010 at 10:17 am
RLO
The statement that Christ justifies the Ungodly is still in contradiction to the statement that the ungodly are reserved for perdition, or hell, unless you are going to use two different deffinitions for the term ungodly. Now, I have no real problem with you doing this. I see no scriptural basis for it, which is why I do not. But if you do that is fine. But without doing this the two statements are in contradiction.
One cannot be cast into hell if one is justified, as such an action would be unjust on the part of God, which we know to be impossible (Job 34: 12).
MASSEY
I am really not sure what you mean about Abraham and Ten Commandments, or about defending a loved one. It really doesn’t seem like you have said anything that disagrees with what I said.
As to what you say concerning the Prison, he did hareld his vistory, but I would still say you have the wrong reason, as I previously explained. The reason he went is explained in the previous verse.
As I also previously explained, he was not giving anyone a second chance, but was giving a first chance to those who did not get one in this life.
I also never said that he was suffering again for sins, and I have no clue where you got this idea from what I said.
Lastly, I I would disagree that the angels who fell with Satan were in this prison. They were on the earth to tempt people, as is evident from the many possessions and temptings made by devils throughout the scriptures. Thus the spirits in this prison cannot be the spirits who never became mortal. Which is also evidenced in the fact that in chapter three we are told that many of the spirits lived at the time of Noah.
It really seems that it is you and Echo who are stretching the words of the Bible to fit your beliefs more than I am.
shematwater said,
June 22, 2010 at 10:23 am
Oh, yeah.
Revelation 12: 9 “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.”
This tells us directly that the angels, or spirits, or deamons, that did not become “Human” are in the Earth, and not in Prison.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 22, 2010 at 3:40 pm
Shem–e was not giving anyone a second chance, but was giving a first chance to those who did not get one in this life.
Me–this statement would imply a second chance–as the Christian mandate is to make sure the world has a chance to hear of what Christ has done what people have called the great commission Matthew 28:16-20
Shem–I would disagree
Me–it seems that YOU(meaning man) disagreeing with what is said in the Bible has gotten Christianity into it’s present situation;yet a correct reading of scripture is all that we have. Scripture never lies the problem lies with man and all echo, myself or anyone has heard are “canned” teachings of people that you consider prophets
Massey Nathanael said,
June 22, 2010 at 7:23 pm
No evidence has been shown that you have referenced what was said or shown via scripture and links in attempt to understand what scripture teaches
seeing that the NT was written in a majorly greek speaking world and as the majority of Americans don’t speak NT translation is required and in order to accomplish that an understanding of grammer is needed
for instance
the word spirit in the passage in question is pnuema meaning “air or breath” this word is used several times when talking about angels or demons, unlike humans who have a physical body angels and demons are pure spirits pnuema (NT) or rauh (OT)
verse 20 of first Peter mentions that Christ preached to those that disobeyed in the days of Noah
“who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water”
this verse says that Christ went to proclaim to those that died “in the days of Noah” refusing to listen to God–thus giving up their one chance at salvation
Shem-This tells us directly that the angels, or spirits, or deamons, that did not become “Human” are in the Earth, and not in Prison.
Me- as shown above demons (FYI I have seen and research numerous possessions and demons) can’t take human form as they are pure spirit
Jude 1;6And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
this verse says that there are indeed demons that are in “everlasting chains”
Why are they referred to as “in prison” they went to a place known as the “hadean realm” (Lk 16:23) to be held for judgment
2 pet 2:4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment;
catzgalore said,
June 23, 2010 at 7:43 am
Shem, is this REALLY what you want, a chance to do these endless debates? I know your point of being on this blog is to “correct” our false doctrines. Do you think you are being successful?
shematwater said,
June 23, 2010 at 9:45 am
MASSEY
First: Where does it say that all Angels and demons are spirits?
Second: The Greek word meaning “air or breathe” changes nothing. In Genesis we are told that God “breathed” the spirit of life into Adam. As such the use of the Greek word would indicate “breathe of life” or the spirit, and as such the translation of the KJV is perfectly accurate.
Third: The mandate given in Matthew to take the gospel to all the world cannot be fullfilled without the idea of preaching to the dead in Prison.
Acts 14: 16 “Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.”
From the time of Abraham until the Atonement the gospel was basically reserved for the covenant people. It was not given to the rest of the world. God allowed the rest of the world to walk in their own ways. So, how is the gospel to be take to them who never had it in this life?
The same can be said of many people since the time of Christ. Could the twelve apostles take the gospel to the American Indians? Did they take it to all people in Europe and Asia? Can you really argue that since the time of Christ there is not a single person who has not heard the gospel preached acording to this great commission?
I know such is not the case, and is truly impossible. Thus, for the commission to take the gospel to all the world to be truly fullfilled it must also be take to those who have died without hearing it, which is what Peter is describing. It is simply logical.
To the rest of what you are saying, it really doesn’t matter that much. You are using a whole lot more than the Bible for your understanding of the nature of Demons. Using the Bible we cannot know half of what you claim to know.
From Jude we know that the spirits are reserved in chains of darkness, but but does this half to be literal. After all, a spirit living on a mortal world would feel trapped, or bound by the limitations of a spirit body. Thus, the simple fact that they are spirits and can never be mortal puts them in chains of darkness. It could also be said that these chains are spiritual, as they know they can never become mortal and thus are prevented form progressing, they are held in a kind of spiritual chain.
The real problem with all this is that I am trying to discuss one idea without bringing others into it, as i really don’t want to get into another endless debate. Suffice it to say that even in the simple discussion we have had I have seen no more logic in what you and Echo have said than in what I have said, and I have not taking or added anything to the scriptures.
ECHO
When did anyone delete Romans 4: 5? All we did was correct a small error. I have done a little research into the ancient Greek, and it seems fairly easy for a transcriber, or translator, to have missed the negative by accident when doing their work.
However, you are still only accusing a subtraction from the Bible, which does not concern me as much as a subtraction from the word of God. And no, in changing this one verse we are not altering the entire Bible. As shown, the Bible has far more references to the condemnation of the Ungodly, but only one to their justification. As such, to change the one really changes nothing in the rest of the Bible.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 23, 2010 at 5:34 pm
Shem–First: Where does it say that all Angels and demons are spirits?
Me–The Bible (Eph 6:12),How is it that just because angels appear in human form you assume some of them are human?
Shem–I have seen no more logic in what you and Echo have said than in what I have said,
Me– that because you refuse to study outside of mormonism relying only on the teaching of a religion that is very much human-centered this can be shown because every argument you have presented to this blog or these comments have been shown to mirror the canned teachings and speeches of your leaders all of which have been thoroughly answered time and time again
Shem–Using the Bible we cannot know half of what you claim to know.
From Jude
Me–The Bible is the true and inspired Word of God profitable for testing, and teaching. Biblical passages build upon one another all one has to do is seek out such patterns with intent on gaining the knowledge that God placed within for his glory
Shem–The mandate given in Matthew to take the gospel to all the world cannot be fullfilled without the idea of preaching to the dead in Prison
Me–forgetting the all the crap you have been taught can you your give proof of this
Shem-You are using a whole lot more than the Bible for your understanding of the nature of Demons
Me-that is true I am using experience and knowledge gained from learning which makes one wise. Wisdom and learning allow people to live in the world being shrewd enough to survive both of which I sit firmly behind as biblical God-Breathed truths as espoused by the apostle Paul
Shem–The Greek word meaning “air or breathe” changes nothing
Me–without greek Joseph Smith couldn’t have written the BOM in entirety with a little over 2,000 plus words being greek
the Septuagint changes everything for without it there would be no bible or BOM of an understanding of Greek allows for understanding of the words that are synonomus to the Christian
Baptiism
Bible
Hell
God
and Christ just to name a few without the greek how would you to debate me on the meaning of the word spirit..unless of course you are relying on things you have heard instead of worked at yourself.
Shem-the simple fact that they are spirits and can never be mortal
Me–this would seem to contradict your previous statment of “: Where does it say that all Angels and demons are spirits?”
shematwater said,
June 24, 2010 at 11:04 am
MASSEY
Ephesians 6: 12 “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
Doesn’t seem to be even close to the quote you give.
I have studied outside the LDS church. I have compared the teachings and the interpretations of many people to that of the LDS church, and none of them really make sense with what I read in the Bible, or what simple common understanding tells us. I have said many times that I believe the LDS church because it makes the most sense in everything. The way scripture is explained is more logical and actually explains the many subtlies of language used. All I hear from everyone else is a struggle to justify their own beliefs by twisting the actual words that are in the scriptures.
You are Echo claim that the scriptures are the only way to know truth. Fine. I am done arguing with you. The Bible itself convinces me that you are in error and have no real understanding of the gospel. It is the Bible itself that persaudes me that the Book of Mormon is a book of scripture, that Joseph Smith was indeed a prophet, and the LDS church is the only true church now in existance. It is the Bible that convinces that you are wrong, that almost everything you say is in error. It is not the LDS church that convinces me the Bible is true, but the Bible that convinces me that it is true.
On a final note, the proof that the Mandate to take the gospel to all the world cannot be fulfilled without taking it to the dead is in my previous post. It is the simple fact that it would be impossible to take the gospel to every person in the world without it. There have been too many people who have died without receiving the gospel already.
You say you are using your experience and knowledge outside the Bible. Fine. Then allow me the same priviledge of using my experience and knowledge, which proves to me that this is true, and any church that denies this is obviously in error.
echoechoecho said,
June 24, 2010 at 11:51 am
Shem said: “When did anyone delete Romans 4: 5? All we did was correct a small error.”
You sound just like Satan who would attempt to justify his SIN and weasel his way out of or water down the truth being told about him. You won’t acknowledge that you have deleted Romans 4:5 when in fact you have. By deleting the word “ungodly” from God’s Holy writ and then replacing it with the exact opposite word, the message of God’s Holy writ has now been entirely altered. It’s the opposite message! Only Satan contradicts God’s Holy writ. That is a deletion of Romans 4:5 and that is a SIN. It’s blasphemy! When the message you bring contradicts God’s word, you have not only deleted God’s word but changed it to say the opposite!
You sound just like Satan again when you say “all we did was correct a small error.” It shouldn’t surprise you in the least why there are many different interpretations of the word of God when you feel so easily compelled to just drop whichever scriptures that don’t fit in with your theology. Anyone can easily misinterpret scripture when they feel free to delete what God has said in the way you have done. Basically you promote and encourage misinterpretation of the scripture by acting as an example to others that deleting scripture is “okay”. You feel free to delete scripture but are such a hypocrite for demanding answers from me for why there are so many different interpretations of scripture! Because of your actions, YOU are part of the very reason and cause of there being different interpretations of scripture! Look in the mirror!
What you don’t realize is that by deleting the one word “ungodly” and replacing it with “Godly”, you have deleted the entire gospel message!… And you call that “little”?
The Gospel is THEE doctrine of all doctrines and you have deleted it! That’s not little, that’s titanic! That one deletion has effected the way you interpret all of scripture!
You have turned to another gospel which is no gospel at all! Galatians 1:8 “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!” A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. Most if not all LDS teachings now contradict the scripture.
The entire gospel message can be summed up in the words: “God justified the ungodly.” When you believe that God doesn’t justify the ungodly, you believe a whole different gospel and that also effects all your other teachings as well! You misinterpret most of scripture as a result of this one deletion!
Shem said: “I have done a little research into the ancient Greek, and it seems fairly easy for a transcriber, or translator, to have missed the negative by accident when doing their work.”
The Greek word used in Romans 4:5 for the term “ungodly” is G765 and is the same Greek word used in Romans 5:6. Joseph Smith didn’t remove the term “ungodly” from Romans 5:6. I think you have found your mistranslation culprit. If you look up this word in any concordance you will plainly see that the “negative particle” is acknowledged in all of them so the information you have given is false. Do you even know what the term “negative particle” means?
Shem said: “However, you are still only accusing a subtraction from the Bible, which does not concern me as much as a subtraction from the word of God. ”
The entire Bible(scripture) is the word of God and is not as you claim: “the word of men and the word of God” mixed together:
1 Thessalonians 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
It is this same word that is at work in those who “believe” as the verse states. However to YOU who do not believe the entire Bible is God’s word this very word of God is NOT at work in YOU. You do not believe!
2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is God-breathed…”
The verse says “ALL” scripture (not just “some” of scripture) is God-breathed. In other words, from the mouth of God, i.e. inspired by God.
Shem said: “And no, in changing this one verse we are not altering the entire Bible.”
A little yeast works through the whole batch of dough. (Mathew 16:6; 1 Corinthians 5:6 ; Galatians 5:9) Don’t fall for the temptation that changing one verse, “one little perceived error” doesn’t have a greater impact on every other teaching you believe in for it holds the potential to affect every doctrine you believe in and it has affected most if not all LDS doctrine. Don’t be fooled, a little drop of poison in a large glass of pure milk still makes the whole glass of milk deadly to drink.
Shem said: “As shown, the Bible has far more references to the condemnation of the Ungodly, but only one to their justification. As such, to change the one really changes nothing in the rest of the Bible.”
Context is everything and here a just a few snips, I did not list them all:
Romans 4:5 “But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.”
Romans 5:6 ” For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.”
Romans 5:8 “But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.”
Romans 5:10 “For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.”
Romans 5:16 “And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification””
Romans 5:18-19 “Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”
Joseph Smith has completely ignored the entire context of the book of Romans.
Shem, if God only justifies the Godly as you do believe, what hope do you have? In the judgment God is going to ask you if you are Godly. Are you Godly? You can’t answer that question with a “yes” without boasting and if you boast, are you not being ungodly? In the judgment you cannot boast therefore when God asks you if you are Godly, you won’t be able to answer him and if you can’t answer him, won’t you also then be considered ungodly?
Or, If you answer him by boasting a little less in saying: “I tried my best to be Godly”, will that be sufficient? Joseph Smith in his translation of Romans 4:5 did NOT say that God justified those who tried their best to be Godly, NO he didn’t say that. Joseph Smith said that God justifies the Godly. Therefore trying isn’t good enough. Are you Godly?
Sin makes us ungodly. There are no degrees of sin i.e. small sins, big sins. SIN IS SIN and all SIN deserves an eternal torment in Hell. God’s law is like a balloon, all it takes is one tiny pin prick (one tiny sin) to pop the entire balloon! How can you claim to be Godly when you pop the entire balloon on a daily basis? Each time you commit a sin, you have broken God’s entire law!
James 2:10 “For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. ”
Someone who breaks God’s whole law every day is not Godly! Sin is lawlessness. When you sin you are a law breaker! In the judgment, all you will be able to say in all truth is that you are a law breaker. Is that being Godly? Can you not yet see that you simply will not be able to justify yourself in the judgment?
On the other hand, when you take God at his word wherein he says: “God justifies the ungodly” can you not see how that will bring you peace not only right now, but also in the future judgment? Can you not see how that excludes all boasting on your part? Can you not see how that reveals God’s amazing love for you?
Massey Nathanael said,
June 24, 2010 at 3:58 pm
you asked in an earlier post
First: Where does it say that all Angels and demons are spirits?
Me–the “quote” i used was Eph h6:12 which says we wrestle not against flesh and blood” to show that demons have never been human and can never I can provide more proofs if you wish?
I did asked the question why do you assume that just because angels can take human form why must you assume that angels are human?
Shem-The way scripture is explained is more logical and actually explains the many subtlies of language used.
Me–yet by your churches own admission the LDS do not study greek which is the language which the bible as we know it is based , yet you claim to uphold the bible as a testement of God would this not make an understanding of greek beneficial
Is it that the LDS does not require Greek because with a knowledge of that langauge the doctrines of the LDS could be proven wrong!
the next problem is the langauges which you tout as understood namely “reformed egyptian” –By admission the “prophet” lehi that came to america was a hebrew–Why then is the BOM not written in ancient Hebrew unless of course Joe Smith didnt want the the BOM to be contradicted by a language study using a language that can’t be found
Shem-The Bible itself convinces me that you are in error
Me-Are you certain? or do the teachings of man claim that the people (echo, myself. LDS woman..etc) that have posted here are in err?
Shem–the simple fact that it would be impossible to take the gospel to every person in the world without it.
Me–yet the Bible tells us that everyone in the world WILL have a chance to hear of who He is via the internet, Missourians, word of mouth or what have you scripture clearly dictates that those that have died have either believed or not; that the believers go to heaven those that rejected the truth of God Via the OT prophets heralding the coming Christ GO TO HELL do not pass go do NOT collect S200.The Bible clearly states that WE are given ONE chance on earth(Hebrews 9:27)
saying that people that have not heard the gospel can “get saved”–smacks of moral relativism–it;s saying anyone can live anyway they want and repent after they die–meaning that we no longer need the gospel as Christ asks of us
Shem–which proves to me that this is true, and any church that denies this is obviously in error
Me–with respect, perhaps you are getting personal revelation with a canned phrase fed to you over a lifetime!!
shematwater said,
June 24, 2010 at 7:39 pm
ECHO
I have not subtracted from the word of God. I believe in his word with all my soul and will defend it to the death. But I will not defend a translation or transcription made by man. There are errors in the Bible as it stands today, whether you accept this or not is your choice.
It is the Bible itself that convinces me that it has errors in it. It is not any man our any organization. It is the way the Bible is written. As the Bible never states that it is without error to say it is is not going contrary to what the Bible says.
MASSEY
I never assumed that angels were human. I only said that the Bible does not say they are not. The one verse you give I will concede does imply that demons are spirits, but it does not imply anything concerning angels. And the simple fact that they are spirits does not mean they are not human (as we have spirits) it only means they are not mortal.
(Sorry, I thought the question was quoting some new translation of the verse.)
It is not required to speek Greek because we do not need to rely on the past for our knowledge of God. God has blessed us with his word to us in this day, and prophets to help us understand his words given in the past. Knowing Greek does not garuntee a better understanding of scriptures, but a personal communication with God does.
Anyway, if you care to look in the foot notes there are references to the original Greek and Hebrew for the purpose of clarifying certain passages. There is also extension commentary done by the church regarding the original language. Joseph Smith himself was fluent in both these languages and read the original Hebrew and Greek translations. To say we do not use them is completely false.
As to everyone hearing the word, I would love to see how the American INdians heard the gospel, or those natives of Australia. I do not deny that we all have only one chance, nor do I deny that all people will be given that chance. I do deny that all people who have lived have already gotten that chance because the idea is truly idiotic and smacks of rationalization.
I do believe in moral relativism, to an extant, for Christ taught such. I refer you back to the quote from Luke 12: 47-48 “And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”
As Christ teaches here, the punishment of sin is relative to the level of knowledge a person has of the gospel. He who never learned will be beated with few stripes, while he who had a sure knowledge will be beaten with many. This is a type of moral relativism, based on our understanding of the laws of God.
This does not give us license to do what we want. The service offered to the dead is only given to those who did not have that chance in this life. For those who have had the chance to accept the gospel in this life and refuse, they loose forever the chance of accepting and gaining the full reward. It is in this life that it must be done if one has that opportunity. But for those who do not have that opportunity an opportunity must be provided so that they can be judged with the same judgement as those who had it. This is what Peter is talking about in chapter four.
“For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”
Because some people did not have the opportunity in this life the gospel was preached to the dead so that they could receive the same judgement as those who had the opportunity in the flesh.
This is the only truly logical way of interpreting what is said in the Bible. Yes, it is something that I was raised with, but it is still logical, and this is the reason I remain with the church. And until someone can offer a better explanation of the meaning of the Bible I will remain in my faith.
You can say that I am just “getting personal revelation with a canned phrase fed to [me] over a lifetime” but it changes nothing. God has spoken to me, personally, and nothing you say will change that.
echoechoecho said,
June 24, 2010 at 10:42 pm
Shem said: “As the Bible never states that it is without error to say it is is[sic] not going contrary to what the Bible says.”
The scriptures state they are ALL God-breathed, so you would have to delete this verse from scripture if the bible contains errors because not all of the scriptures would any longer be God-breathed.
God says his word is truth. You would have to delete these scriptures from the Bible because if the Bible contains some errors, you can no longer consider any of it to be the truth with any absolute certainty.
The scripture states that God cannot tell a lie, you will have to delete these scriptures because you can no longer be certain which scriptures are truth or which ones are lie’s.
The scriptures state that man cannot thwart the purposes of God. You will have to delete those scriptures from the Bible since man has now thwarted the purposes of God by mistranslating or transcribing his word.
All the scripture verses that state that God is all-powerful will have to be deleted because God is no longer all-powerful since man now has more power than God.
All the scripture verses that say that those who don’t believe God’s word are children of the devil, those scripture verses will have to be deleted because God can no longer hold anyone accountable for not listening to his word since the Bible now contains errors.
Then there are the scriptures that hold man accountable for believing his word, those will all have to be deleted since he can’t hold us accountable with a bible that contains errors.
The scriptures that state that God sanctifies us through his word will have to be deleted since we can’t be sure what is and isn’t his word any longer.
Passages like: “Your word is a lamp unto my feet and a light for my path” will all have to be deleted since errors aren’t a lamp for our feet or a light for our path.
All the passages that state that God’s word is flawless will have to be deleted since his word is no longer flawless.
Scripture passages that state that the “truth endureth for all generations” will have to be deleted because God didn’t keep that promise if men mistranslated or mistranscribed the Bible. And as a matter of fact since God didn’t keep this promise, then you will have to delete every promise God ever made in the Bible as well as claiming now that God is a liar!
And on and on and on till there is nothing left of scripture.
In fact, there are scriptures that state that faith comes from hearing the message. You will have to delete those since faith doesn’t come from a message containing errors or from a false gospel. And since you have to delete those, nobody can any longer receive the gift of saving faith and be saved so you might as well just delete the whole bible since everyone is now going to Hell anyways.
God preserves his inerrant words forever!
Psalm 12:6-7 “ The words of the LORD are pure words : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.”
Proverbs 30:5-6 “ Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.”
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away”
John 17:17 “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.”
John 8:47 “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
John 12:48 “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
Isaiah 55:11 “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.”
Luke 16:17 “It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.”
Mathew 5:18 “I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
2 Samuel 22:31 “”As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless. He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.”
Psalm 18:30 “As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is flawless . He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.”
Psalm 33:11 “But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.”
Psalm 100:5 “For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations.”
Psalm 33:11 “But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations”
Job 42:2 “”I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted.”
Isaiah 8:10 “Devise your strategy, but it will be thwarted; propose your plan, but it will not stand, for God is with us.”
SATAN’S very first temptation in the Garden of Eden was to get Eve to doubt God’s word when he said: “Did God really say…” (Gen 3:1) The consequence of falling into that temptation brought all the sin, suffering and both physical and spiritual death to the entire human race!
Don’t continue to fall for that temptation Shem, don’t take this road Satan has taken you on, it only leads to Hell. Rely on the inerrant word of God alone and you will never regret it!
You forgot to answer my question: What about the judgment? What are you going to say when God asks you if you are Godly? Lets discuss this. Let God’s inerrant word set you free!
Praying for you!
catzgalore said,
June 25, 2010 at 5:10 pm
Shem said…
Joseph Smith himself was fluent in both these languages and read the original Hebrew and Greek translations
I’ve heard many times that Joseph Smith was UNEDUCATED. Do you have any sources for your statement?
shematwater said,
June 25, 2010 at 5:57 pm
ECHO
Show me the verse that says this, in very explicit terms.
“The Bible, consisting of the Old Testiment (of 39 books written before the time of Christ), and the New Testiment (of 27 books written by the apostles of Christ and early converts), as it will exist in the days just preceding the second coming of Christ, will be free of all error; the pure word of God.”
It would deffinitely help if each book that was to be in it was named as well, as without the titles being given we could never really be sure we had the correct books.
This is what is need to prove the Bible to be without error. All the wonderful verses you quote mean nothing for this purpose.
All scripture is God-breathed, but that does not mean it is all God-translated or transscribed.
All scripture is given for the purpose of instruction, but that does not prevent the receiver from altering it after it is given.
God’s word is true and faithful, and non of it will change or fail to be fulfilled. I believe the Bible to be the word of God as it originally fell from the lips (or pens) of the ancient prophets. This is what the word of God is.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 25, 2010 at 7:35 pm
Shem– I do deny that all people who have lived have already gotten that chance because the idea is truly idiotic and smacks of rationalization.
Me-if I misspoke I apologize–I did not mean to say that all people have gotten the chance to here the “Good News–what I ment was this because of thechnology and other outlets people have that opportunity.
While it is naive’ to assume that all who hear the gospel will accept what Christ has to offer. Hell not created for man but for the devil and his demons to say that God would allow people to die without hearing of his love for them would be to say the as such Gods condemns people to hell.
Shem–it is still logical, and this is the reason I remain with the church. And until someone can offer a better explanation of the meaning of the Bible I will remain in my faith.
Me–regardless of any explanation that we offer Will it ever be good enough?
to at least let you see that the “faith” you have is misplaced it into the hands of people that have virtually said “Did God really say” remediable by a “translation” and other “gospel” that was conveniently translated from an unknown language
I ask that you do not listen me I do ask that you accept this invitation that God has given you via Echo.
with much respect
Nathanael
shematwater said,
June 27, 2010 at 3:35 pm
Nathanael
“to say that God would allow people to die without hearing of his love for them would be to say that God condemns such people to hell.”
I read the quote reference you gave, and it says exactly this. There are many who have lived, and who currently live, who have not heard the gospel, and they are comdemned because of it. This is why I cannot accept any other Christian denomination. The God they profess either gives mercy at the expense of justice, or justice at the expense of mercy, or they simply are illogical in their assumptions.
Let me explain these three.
1. “God saves all those who did not hear the gospel because he will not condemn a man who did not know.” This is very much against the Bible, as it destroys the justice of God. We have established in this thread (and the link you give) that those who sin in ignorance will still be punished.
2. “God condemns all those who do not accept him, regardless of whether they ever had the chance to or not.” This is what the link you give says, and is again against the Bible, as it destroys the mercy of God.
3. “God condemns all those who do not accept him, and so all men will have an opportunity in this life to hear the gospel and accept it.” This is illogical and, in truth, also against the Bible, as the Bible says that for many years the gospel was given only to the Israelites.
Thus we have three ideas, none of which truly agree with the Bible, but all Christian denominations will adhere to one of them. This point alone is enough for me to reject any religion that adheres to any of these three ideas.
The only one that doesn’t is the LDS church. We do not deny his justice by giving a free pass for ignorance, but require all to be accountable for their actions. We do not deny his mercy in condemnation for ignorance either. The only way for God to maintain both his justice and his mercy is to provide a way for all men to have the chance to accept the gospel, which we admit cannot happen for all in this life. The only way to reconcile it is for God to allow those who did not have the opportunity in this life to have it in another. It is the only way to make sense of what the Bible teaches.
I have listened to you and to Echo, and I have considered everything that you have said. But it all falls into this same idea. The God you worship cannot be the God of the Bible because he is not perfectly just and perfectly merciful.
With all respect
Shem
Massey Nathanael said,
June 27, 2010 at 8:50 pm
Shem–The God you worship cannot be the God of the Bible because he is
not perfectly just and perfectly merciful
Me–The God I serve is BOTH; merciful because I choose to accept Him, yet perfectly just in that if I didn’t..well.. I would be dammed for eternity He will pass His divine judgment and those that choose not to heed his message and receive his free gift of Salvation he will act justly and swiftly to pass his verdict of Guilty.
The God I serve is just He will judge everyone according to their faith and how they treated those within and without–however God desires that everyone should want to accept Him (2 Peter 3:9;1 Timothy 2:4)
Shem–The only way for God to maintain both his justice and his mercy is to provide a way for all men to have the chance to accept the gospel,
Me–The God I serve will and has provided that way or do you not believe that we are His “hands and feet”
Shem–he only way to reconcile it is for God to allow those who did not have the opportunity in this life to have it in another.
Me–This statement tells me two things 1. that you are denying the truth that all people will and/or have been given the chance at salvation in this life
2.that you presume to know the mind of the father and that you would even dictate how exactly He should work
echoechoecho said,
June 28, 2010 at 12:18 am
Shem said: “This is what is need to prove the Bible to be without error. All the wonderful verses you quote mean nothing for this purpose.”
All the verses I gave mean everything for this purpose. The fact of the matter is that you don’t believe what the Bible says.
You forgot to answer my question again: What about the judgment? What are you going to say when God asks you if you are Godly?
Massey Nathanael said,
June 28, 2010 at 9:25 am
Echo–you forgot to answer my question again:
Me–He forgot or he can’t or perhaps he’ll say godly on the grounds that he obeyed all the ordinances of the mormon church?
echoechoecho said,
June 28, 2010 at 9:59 am
Massey said: “He forgot or he can’t or perhaps he’ll say godly on the grounds that he obeyed all the ordinances of the mormon church?”
He can’t give that answer either because that would be boasting as well.
shematwater said,
June 28, 2010 at 5:00 pm
ECHO
None of the verses you gave mention the Bible as it currently exists. They mention the word of God. Everything they say I agree with. But none of them say what you claim they do.
As to your question, I really don’t think any answer I give is going to matter. From the last posts by you and Nathan I can see you really don’t care.
However, I hope to be able to answer (as the first two servants in the story of the ten Talents) “Lord, thou deliveredst unto me these talents: behold, I have gained beside them these talents more.” (Matthew 25: 20, 22) When the day of judgement comes I will stand with the knowledge that I have remained faithful to him who is mighty to save and will be accepted by my Father as “good and faithful servant” for the service I have given.
NATHAN
I have no doubt that what you believe is that God is just and merciful, but what you describe is not logical. There is no way that all people who have lived on this Earth received the gospel in this life. The Bible itself states this to be true. In Acts 14: 16, speaking of Christ as the God of the Old Testiment Paul writes “Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.” Before the Atonement there were those who had not the gospel, for God suffered them to walk in their own ways. To say that all men have that opportunity in this life is in direct opposition to what the Bible says. As such, while you do have a merciful and just God, your belief is based in an unbilical idea.
Thus, the first thing my statement tells you is true, because the Bible and simple common sense tells us this. Not all men have received the gospel in this life, as stated by Paul.
As to your second thought, I don’t know where you get that idea from. The same thing could be said of you trying to make fit your ideas to the Bible. I presume nothing but what God has seen fit to reveal to man. I dictate nothing to God, for where would I get the authority to do such.
However, God has revealed his mind to us through his word, and has told us how he will act. He will act with perfect Justice and with perfect mercy. This is all I need to know to know that what you say is impossible and that what the LDS teach is the only possible way for him to act as he has said he would.
echoechoecho said,
June 29, 2010 at 1:34 am
Shem said: “None of the verses you gave mention the Bible as it currently exists. They mention the word of God. Everything they say I agree with. But none of them say what you claim they do.”
We disagree. God is more powerful than you believe him to be. God is able to preserve his word of truth for “all” generations just as he said. He cannot tell a lie.
As to your question, I really don’t think any answer I give is going to matter. From the last posts by you and Nathan I can see you really don’t care.
Actually I do really care, you have wrongfully misjudged me. My greatest and deepest concern for you is that you won’t be able to stand in the judgment without any fear. It’s vitally important to be fearless in the judgment: Revelation 21:8 “But the fearful, …, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
Shem said: “However, I hope to be able to answer (as the first two servants in the story of the ten Talents) “Lord, thou deliveredst unto me these talents: behold, I have gained beside them these talents more.” (Matthew 25: 20, 22) When the day of judgement comes I will stand with the knowledge that I have remained faithful to him who is mighty to save and will be accepted by my Father as “good and faithful servant” for the service I have given.”
That’s good, so long as you understand that how you manage your talents doesn’t in the end gain for you eternal life, nor is it a condition of eternal life. But rather, because God has given you eternal life as a totally free gift before you did any works, you THEN were given the opportunity to manage those talents to his glory.
Otherwise, if eternal life were conditional on how you managed your talents(which it is not), then all that you say in the judgment about how you managed your talents will all be considered boasting and that would be a sin.
And if eternal life were conditional on your obedience(which it is not), that would only cause fear. The kind of fear that leads to the second death in the lake that burneth with fire and brimstone.
Massey Nathanael said,
June 29, 2010 at 9:57 am
Shem–Thus, the first thing my statement tells you is true, because the Bible and simple common sense tells us this. Not all men have received the gospel in this life
Me–received as be told about it or received as in heard and accepted there is a very important difference so please be careful how you answer
Shem–what you describe is not logical.
Me-God is logical, humans are both logical and emotional would it not make sense that if God whats everyone to come to a saving knowledge of Himself that He can work through both avenues at the same time?
these tenants are what gives both echo and myself the ability to gain the wisdom given by God through the Bible what is illogical is the fact you you are not only using a logical man made argument but that much of what you argue has holes..
Shem–I can see you really don’t care.
Me–think what you want to my dying breathe my concern is for YOUR soul
You said to echo–I really don’t think any answer I give is going to matter.
Me–The answer DOES matter we are asked to give account of what and why we believe it and right now our concern is to How you will answer
Shem–Before the Atonement there were those who had not the gospel
Me–so you deny that the prophets brought “good news?”
without that news there would be no “Christianity”
Shem–As such, while you do have a merciful and just God, your belief is based in an unbilical idea.
Me–I can proudly say as I believe can echo say that is NOT the case
shematwater said,
June 29, 2010 at 11:07 am
Echo
“God is able to preserve his word of truth for “all” generations just as he said. He cannot tell a lie. ”
I do not disagree with any of this statement. He is able to, but I never said he lacked the power. I simple said he chose not to use it in regards to the Bible. In all truth I never even said this. To be more precise to my meaning, God chose to exercise this power only to the extent that was necessary to lead Joseph Smith to seek him in prayer. He preserved enough to make the restoration happen, but he did not preserve every word that was contained within it.
In all truth, it seems to be you who are limiting his power. He can’t talk to us personally, and he can’t have any scripture other than the Bible.
“Actually I do really care, you have wrongfully misjudged me.”
I really don’t think I have, actually. I never said that you didn’t care about me, only that you didn’t care about the answer. Shown by your remarks with Nathan, and your later response to my answer, your only intent was to show error in my belief. You did not care what I said, because whatever it was you were prepared to point out where I was wrong. As such my answer, in and of itself, did not really matter.
As to your response to my answer, I will say this.
The parable of the Ten Talents teaches very plainly that it is our obedience that determine whether we gain eternal life. The two who managed their talents well, or did what was expected of them, were honored and welcomed into the kingdom. The one who did not was cast out. All knew and believed in their master; in other words all were good Christians with faith in the grace of Christ. But the one who did not do that which was required was rejected of God.
In saying this I am not boasting in any way. If I managed my talents well and am thus found worthy of eternal life the glory of that will go to Christ and the Father, as I could not do it by myself. He gave me the talents to manage; or gave me the physical and mental capabilities that allowed me to be obedient in this life. How can I boast in simply being a good steward over that which is not mine?
And, in closing, the condition of obedience is what has always brought me the most comfort. It causes no fear, but brings peace to the soul. It is only those who seek to do evil that this causes fear in, as well it should. But one whose only desire is to do good this is the greatest comfort that can be given.
echoechoecho said,
June 30, 2010 at 10:38 am
Shem said: “I do not disagree with any of this statement. He is able to, but I never said he lacked the power. I simple said he chose not to use it in regards to the Bible. In all truth I never even said this. To be more precise to my meaning, God chose to exercise this power only to the extent that was necessary to lead Joseph Smith to seek him in prayer. He preserved enough to make the restoration happen, but he did not preserve every word that was contained within it.”
The Bible says: “ His truth endureth to ALL generations”
The Bible doesn’t say “some truth endureth to some generations”, nor does it say that God chose to exercise this power only to the extent that was necessary to lead Joseph Smith to seek him in prayer. Nor does the Bible say that God preserved enough to make the restoration happen through Joseph Smith. Your adding and subtracting from God’s word. Deception begins with adding and subtracting from God’s word.
Shem said: “The parable of the Ten Talents teaches very plainly that it is our obedience that determine whether we gain eternal life.”
The parable of the Ten talents does NOT at all teach that our obedience
is what determines whether we gain eternal life. Your adding/subtracting from scripture again.
What the parable actually teaches is that those who first had or began with, the absolute certainty of eternal life (because God justified the ungodly), will THEN go and use their talents for God’s glory.
Shem said: “The two who managed their talents well, or did what was expected of them, were honored and welcomed into the kingdom.”
Nowhere in this parable were they welcomed into the kingdom after managing their talents well. They were part of the kingdom already! They called him “Lord” and they themselves were called “his own servants” (Math 25:14 “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.) They were called into the kingdom and THEN given talents.
Shem said: “The one who did not was cast out.”
Listen to yourself! If entering the kingdom of heaven is conditioned on obedience, how can the man be “cast out” of the kingdom of heaven if he never was part of the kingdom of heaven to begin with. Your right in saying he was “cast out” and I agree with that. He was part of the Kingdom of Heaven to begin with and all apart from his obedience.
Granted, he was cast out because he was lazy but at the same time, it’s also true that the others didn’t enter the kingdom of heaven because of their obedience. They used their talents only AFTER they were welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.
Shem said: “In saying this I am not boasting in any way. If I managed my talents well and am thus found worthy of eternal life the glory of that will go to Christ and the Father, as I could not do it by myself. He gave me the talents to manage; or gave me the physical and mental capabilities that allowed me to be obedient in this life. How can I boast in simply being a good steward over that which is not mine?”
Of all the men in the parable, NONE were found worthy of eternal life. God justifies the ungodly. (Romans 4:5 ” But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness”) If you think you can be found worthy of eternal life, you have to boast and are in fact boasting already just in thinking that you can be found worthy.
Shem said: “And, in closing, the condition of obedience is what has always brought me the most comfort. It causes no fear, but brings peace to the soul. It is only those who seek to do evil that this causes fear in, as well it should. But one whose only desire is to do good this is the greatest comfort that can be given.”
Keep in mind though that it is “the condition of obedience” that is expected of you. Having ONLY the desire to do good is not in and of itself: “obedience”. Obedience is obedience. Desire is NOT obedience. One can desire to do good and not do it, that’s laziness and that is the charge made against the man who went to outer darkness.
shematwater said,
June 30, 2010 at 4:31 pm
ECHO
“The Bible says: “ His truth endureth to ALL generations”
Great, and I do not deny this. His truth has never changed. It endured throughout the ages, and was just as true during the apostacy as it was in the days of Adam and is now.
But this does not say that the “written word” of God would endure to all ages. It only says his truth. You seem to be confusing the two terms.
“What the parable actually teaches is that those who first had or began with, the absolute certainty of eternal life (because God justified the ungodly), will THEN go and use their talents for God’s glory.”
You are really going to have to explain this one. Nowhere is there any implication that the third is in any doubt of his Lord or his power. In truth it seems to be this idea of “absolute certainty of eternal life” that causes him to hide the talent and thus be cast out. This third servant fully axpected to be received, just as the other two had. He had the same certainty.
Now, let me clarify the whole kingdom thing. I thought it would have been obvious, but as it wasn’t… They were in the kingdom, but as servants. Thus, at the beginning of the Parable we have a symbol of the mortal life here on Earth. At the end they were brought into the kingdom as rulers, no longer to be servants. Thus we have a symbol of the glory of heaven and eternal life. So, while they were in the kingdom, they were still being welcomed into the kingdom, not of God but of Heaven. The third was not welcomed into the kingdom of Heaven and was cast out of the kingdom of God.
Hope this helps you to understand my meaning.
Now, you really are hung up on this one verse in Romans. It seems that everything has to hang on this, and everything else has to be interpretted by this. It is simply rediculous. The only reason you have any basis for claiming the meaning you do for this parable is that you cannot think outside this one verse in Romans. The Parable is vary plainly teaching the necessity for obedience to gain eternal life. It is you who are adding to the scriptures by forcing your ideas of a single verse onto the rest of it.
Psalms 1: 5-6 “Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
A direct contradiction to the one verse in Romans. After all, if Christ justifies the ungodly how can they perish, and why will they not stand in the judgement?
Add this to the rather nice list of other verses contradicting this one that I gave several posts before. And before you through this verse at me again please explain how they are all reconciled to each other.
Concluding, again, with the whole obedience point. I did not say that one who merely desires good, but one whose only desire is to do good. One who has the desire but still does not do it has other desires as well, desires stronger than his desire to do good. These men have desires to do evil, and they have reason to fear.
It is one whose only desire is to do good; one who is constantly searching the scriptures and praying to know what he is to do; one who, when he does do wrong, is harrowed up in both soul and body because of the pain such gives to his Heavenly Father. This is a man who has no fear from a condition of obedience, because all he wants is to be obedient. This is the man that whether that condition was there or not he would still be obedient.
Those who fear are those who want the salvation of God, but do not really want to be obedient. They want to do good generally, but they have another desire that they just don’t want to give up. These are they who have reason to fear, for they are the ones who will more easily fall to temptation; they are the ones who seek to justify themselves before God.
Requiring obedience is never fearful to one who is already trying their hardest to be obedient. It is only fearful to those who don’t want to try as hard.
Massey Nathanael said,
July 1, 2010 at 7:10 pm
I have 2 question for both of you Echo, Shem
What leads a parent to give a child rules;:–Why then does that child obey the rules?
Massey Nathanael said,
July 1, 2010 at 7:34 pm
Why would a friend take the punishment for breaking those rules;
echoechoecho said,
July 2, 2010 at 1:36 am
Shem said: ” It seems that everything has to hang on this, and everything else has to be interpretted[sic] by this.”
Wow. You have made a most profound observation here. I commend you for it. I interpret everything by the words in the Bible: “God justifies the ungodly” and you interpret everything by the words of Joseph Smith: “God justifies the Godly”
Your profound observation points out clearly that what we have is two doors.
Door # 1) God justifies the ungodly (From the Bible)
and Door # 2) God justifies the godly (From Joseph Smith)
Every interpretation of scripture is dependant upon which door you or I go through.
Now if we both could just go through the same door, everything we disagreed on before would then naturally fall into place. So let’s focus on the door.
I BELIEVE that Genesis 1:1 through Revelation 22:21 is the word of God. It ***IS*** truth. So when you say that Psalm 1:5-6 is a direct contradiction to the Romans passage wherein “God justifies the ungodly”, what you are saying TO ME and TO MY GOD is that God contradicts himself. The perfect God of the universe who cannot err or contradict himself has been caught in his error by you, a mere imperfect man who thinks he is much wiser than God.
Shem, for someone who desires to do only good all the time, you should get the word of God into your heart and mind right here right now. Stop adding to it, subtracting from it or contradicting it:
God preserves his word of truth for ALL generations:
Psalm 12:6-7 “ The words of the LORD are pure words : as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. ”
Luke 21:33 “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away ”
God preserves his truth in written form (his testimony) so that no man will be deceived:
Isaiah 8:20 “To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, they have no light of dawn.”
John 5:39 “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me,”
Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.”
All scripture is “God-breathed” meaning ALL scripture is God’s own word and not the word of men:
2 Timothy 3:16 ” All Scripture is God-breathed …”
1 Thessalonians 2:13 “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.”
Which is wiser do you think? Is it wiser to stand in judgment over God and conclude that God has contradicted himself because you can’t reconcile what he has said? Or is it wiser to conclude that God cannot contradict himself and instead stand in judgment over yourself admitting that perhaps you don’t understand how this isn’t a contradiction?
Which one of those is a sign of pride and which one is a sign of humility?
How would you feel if I took your words to me and changed your words so that they completely contradict what you actually said?
For example, if I were to attribute to your name the words: “Shem said that only those who only desire to do evil will be saved”.
What about if I went and took those very words and spread those words around the entire world crediting YOU with saying those words. And suppose I worked very hard towards converting thousands or even millions of people into believing you said that so that they could follow you. How would you feel? The only way to prove to the world what you actually truly said would be to show the world a written document that you wrote or provide a link to your original post that I contradicted wherein you said: “only those whose only desire is to do good will be saved”.
Lets suppose you did in fact do that but the millions that were converted by me believed me rather than believing you. How would they make you feel?
At the end of my life I come to your front door. Would you say to me: Echo, you have proved worthy, Echo, come share in my happiness! Well done Echo, my good and faithful servant! Would you invite me into your house and make me ruler over many things?
I would actually only deserve your wrath, wouldn’t I. I would be without excuse as well because you provided your written testimony of what you said, and told me as well as those that believed me the plain and clear truth, and they didn’t believe you nor did I. Both they and I would not be able to justify ourselves because we simply refused to believe your written testimony. So both myself and those I converted would be without excuse and deserve only your wrath.
Shem, for a man who’s only desire is to do good, are you prepared to do good by believing God’s EVERY word even if it seems contradictory to you or will you seek to justify yourself before God and be like this man: “One who has the desire but still does not do it has other desires as well, desires stronger than his desire to do good. These men have desires to do evil, and they have reason to fear.”
God’s word has reconciled both the verse from Romans wherein he “justifies the ungodly” and the verse in Psalm 1: 5-6 that you gave: “Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the Lord knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.”
Unless you are willing to do good by believing what only God has said to the exclusion of all others, there is no point in my showing you how God’s word reconciles those two verses since you are then a person who doesn’t believe God’s word, and doesn’t listen to God’s word. Are you willing to believe God’s word over and above the word of Joseph Smith? God’s own word warns you against men such as Joseph Smith who “do not speak according to God’s testimony” (Isaiah 8:20) which simply means they contradict God’s testimony as does Joseph Smith when he says that God justifies the godly. And we know also that God’s testimony is found in the scriptures. (John 5:39) We also know that the scriptures contain “truth” and if we really want to know if someone is teaching the truth we are considered NOBLE in God’s eyes for searching the scriptures to see if what someone is saying is true. The noble Bereans would never believe Joseph Smith because Joseph contradicted the truth when he said that God justifies the godly.
Are you a NOBLE Berean? Do you want to do only the good the noble Bereans did?
Jesus told a story with the exact same idea wherein a man who died and was in Hell and torment begged that his brothers who were still living here on earth could have a personal revelation to lead them to repent. They were instead directed to read God’s word (‘Moses and the prophets” was the name for our Old Testament) in order to avoid the place of torment rather than depending on personal revelation in the form of a man rising from the dead. Jesus showed in this story that God’s written word(testimony) held much more power and ability to convince than did a personal revelation in the form of an amazing miracle consisting of a man rising from the dead!! ( Luke 16:27-31: “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
John 8:47 “He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.”
John 12:48 “He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
Are you willing to hear and receive God’s words?
shematwater said,
July 2, 2010 at 1:41 pm
ECHO
You are very cunning in your words, but you fail to prove anything.
The words of God can not be stopped, and will all be fulfilled. Not one Jot nor Tiddle of what he spoke, and what the prophets wrote, will pass away, and I have never denied this. But none of the verses you site speak to the translation of his words, or the transcription over time. This is where your argument fails, and where it will always fail.
What God spoke is truth, but what man translated it into is not necessarily an accurate portrail of that truth.
You started your post by accusing me of saying that God has contradicted himself. This is a false accusation, and you know it. I have never said that God contradicted himself. You asked how I would feel if you changed my words, but you have already done so, and as far as I can see you have done so purposely. Just as men in the past took the words of God and altered them for their own purpose, you have taken my words and altered them for yours.
The simple fact is that God cannot condemn the ungodly, as it states in Psalms and all the other references I gave, if he is also going to justify them, as it states in Romans. The only way to reconcile these two verses is to wrest their meaning, as Peter warns will happen in his second epistle (3: 16)
You dress up your meaning in a lot of pretty words, but the accusation is clear, and your own words will speak against you when God asks why you refused to believe his words given through Joseph Smith.
I am perfectly willing to accept the words of God, as they come from him, regardless of any apparent contradiction, just as Abraham did when he offered Isaac. But I am not prepared to accept the foolish imaginings of men who rely more on the works of men in translation than on the mercy of God in revelation.
You can say all the pretty things you want, and you can accuse me of anything that strikes you to accuse me with. It doesn’t matter. Because all you have is a man made translation of God’s words given over two-thousand years ago, while I have his spirit constantly with me to teach me his truth personally.
NATHAN
A parent gives rules because they know if they are followed the children will acheive a greater happiness than any other way.
Children obey for different reasons: To escape punishment; to earn rewards; because they love their parents; and also because they can see that their parents are right.
As to your last question, a friend would take the punishment if he loved the children, but I doubt any parent would allow a friend to do so. However, an elder brother, who loves his younger brothers and sisters, may be allowed to take the punishment.
echoechoecho said,
July 2, 2010 at 2:18 pm
Thank you Shem for putting all your time and effort into the discussion. I appreciate your time and effort.
I hope you have a great summer!
Take care and may God Bless you abundantly!
Echo
Massey Nathanael said,
July 2, 2010 at 3:13 pm
Shem–A parent gives rules because they know if they are followed the children will acheive a greater happiness than any other way.
Me–A parent gives rules because they Love their children they know from the beginning that their Children are not perfect likewise they fully expect them to break the rules again yet parents will show the same loving-grace several times over
Shem–because they love their parents; and also because they can see that their parents are right.
Me–They follow the rules because they know their parents LOVE them and therefore they love their parents.
Shem–a friend would take the punishment if he loved the children, but I doubt any parent would allow a friend to do so.
Me–but Shem a friend did take are punishment for us asking nothing but our love in return; no matter what we do to OBEY god we can no more gain heaven then the devil himself.
like the child who knows that his Dad loves him he obeys; on the other hand if my father said Do not steal from your brother and I will love. you whats to stop me from stealing from him.
now if my father said I love you stealing is wrong please don’t do it. Would I have reason to listen
Shem God’s love is not conditioned on our obedience He hopes that we will not fail but it knows that free-will allows for it.. He gives a free gift (titus 3:5)
going as far back as genesis he does not require of slaves He asks of family!!
Massey Nathanael said,
July 3, 2010 at 12:24 pm
God does not admit you into heaven on the basis of how many times a month take communion, or the way you stand when you get baptized or weather you do not drink tea
God grace and mercy is unconditional
shematwater said,
July 3, 2010 at 2:25 pm
NATHAN
I am not completely sure what you are saying, as you seem to ignore some of what I said.
When did I ever say that God’s love for us was conditioned on our obedience. I don’t even remember implying that.
As to a friend having paid the price, again you are not really seeing what I said. I denied that it was simply a friend, because Christ is so much more. He is our Eldest Brother, and as such the sacrifice is much greater and much more personal. I never denied that someone has suffered the punishment for us, I just believe he holds a different relationship to us than what you suggest.
As to the two ways of commanding not to steal, I don’t think either one is going to persuade many to listen too intently. Which is why we never hear God mixing a statement of Love with giving a command, unless he is commanding us to love. In truth, your examples seem more minipulative than loving.
God loves us, but that is not a sufficient reason for most people to obey if they do not love him as well, which is why I did not list it in reasons for obedience in children. If the child does not love the parent it will take more than the parents love to inspire obedience.
shematwater said,
July 6, 2010 at 10:51 am
Nathan
I missed your last post before (117).
To this I would simply have to reply that his Justice is also unconditional. His mercy cannot rob His justice, and nor can his grace. Thus, while His mercy is given freely to all, as is His grace; but His reward, or the salvation of souls, must be conditional or His justice is no longer justice.
Massey Nathanael said,
July 6, 2010 at 1:12 pm
Shem–Which is why we never hear God mixing a statement of Love
with giving a command
Me–The statement seems to suggest that we should become mindless automatons; you suggest that God would force us to obey.
Me-I suggest you reread Starting with the Books of Moses, Gods whole reason for commanding or warning is because He loves us and would like us to love Him in Return
Shem–He is our Eldest Brother
Me- I assume you mean in a physical sense drawing on mormon doctrine; can I asK How Exactly did the mormons come to this conclusion?
Shem–God loves us, but that is not a sufficient reason for most people to obey
Me–This is true–yet God love is why many do
Shem-the salvation of souls, must be conditional
Me-is that condition material? as in “Don’t drink grape juice or wine with communion or I won’t save your soul !
Shem–His mercy cannot rob His justice,and nor can his grace.
Me–Nonetheless those true to Christ are not getting what we justly deserve. Yet God remains faithful to his promise He will deal swiftly and justly with the sinner
Massey Nathanael said,
July 6, 2010 at 1:15 pm
Me–I assume you mean in a physical sense drawing on mormon doctrine; can I asK How Exactly did the mormons come to this conclusion?
shematwater said,
July 9, 2010 at 9:38 pm
NATHAN
I have some difficulty following your questions, so let me try to answer them here first.
1. I never said we should become mindless automotons, and i really don’t know how you got this. God does not mix a statement of love with a command. His reason for commanding is that he loves us, yes. But he does not profess love while commanding. This is a manipulative tactic, and God does not manipulate us.
2. In truth, I would not say that many obey God for the sole reason that he loves them. It is like I said; They love him as well, and their love joins with his to inspire obedience. Only when love is shared by both sides will it inspire any form of obedience.
3. ” I assume you mean in a physical sense drawing on mormon doctrine”
Actually, I mean in the Spirit sense. He is the first spirit child born to our Heavenly Father, and is thus our eldest bother.
4. “is that condition material?”
I am not exactly sure what you mean by this. The condition is obedience to the laws which God has given. Thus, if God commands us not to murder, than all who murder fall short of the requirement, and thus fall short of salvation. If he has commanded not to lie than all who lie likewise fall short.
5. “Nonetheless those true to Christ are not getting what we justly deserve.”
This is where we disagree. We must get what we justly deserve. Otherwise God is no longer just. He cannot visit a just punishment on the sinner if he is unjust in his reward of the righteous. As such all men must receive what they justly deserve.
This is the point of the Atonement. People speak of the Atonement as erasing the debt of our sin, but this is not technically true. Christ paid for our sins, and thus purchased our debt. We no longer owe God, we owe Christ. The difference is that we can actually pay the debt to Christ, through our obedience, while we could never have done so with the Father.
6. “How Exactly did the mormons come to this conclusion?”
To be honest with you, it always seemed so logical that I never thought about it. Since the firstborn gains the birthright, it just follows that Christ was the firstborn.
However, I did look this up in the Bible Dictionary that is published with our standard works. It gives this reference and evidence.
Col. 1: 13-18 (I only quote 15 and 18 here)
“Who is the image of the invisible God, the FIRSTBORN of every creature…
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that IN ALL THINGS he might have the PREEMINENCE.”
There is also Hebrews 12: 13 where the church is called the “Church of the Firstborn.”
Then Psalms 89: 27, where we are told the Messiah will be the Firstborn.
Again, in Isaiah 41: 4 God states that he is the first.
These last three are listed in the Topical Guide under Jesus Christ; Firstborn.
Hope this helps.
shematwater said,
July 9, 2010 at 9:41 pm
As to answering the questions on the link you gave me, I will try to do so tomorrow.
Massey Nathanael said,
July 28, 2010 at 8:30 am
Shem–He is the first spirit child born to our Heavenly Father, and is thus our eldest bother.
Me I invite you using the BOM and the Bible please show me where this is stated
Shem–Then Psalms 89: 27, where we are told the Messiah will be the Firstborn.
Shem-To be honest with you, it always seemed so logical that I never thought about it.
Me–I know your smart you don’t appear to me as one to run blindly into as situation DO NOT let people pull the wool over your eyes brother to be prepared you must question
Shem-Psalms 89: 27, where we are told the Messiah will be the Firstborn.
Me-Did you ever think that the palmist could have been alluding to the fact the Jesus had physical brothers and sisters–which he did!
or
As you have shown paul does label the Christ as the first among the dead
and as you know Christ was the first to resurrected from the dead Did you never question that Paul could have meant the “firstborn” meant” resurrected from the dead
Shem-Hebrews 12: 13 where the church is called the “Church of the Firstborn.
Me-Hebrews 12 discusses God discipline and our call to holiness
saying nothing about the church being of the firstborn verse 13 reads
And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed.(KJV)
Shem-Isaiah 41: 4 God states that he is the first
Me–Could the Context Not have been that God is confirming that He is the ONE and only God as He has been from the beginning and will be until the end