Forgiving Others is Un-fair! Thank Goodness God isn’t Fair

For many years I struggled with God’s command to forgive others. I sincerely desired to forgive certain people in my life, but I just couldn’t do it. I would have days when I thought I had conquered my unforgiving feelings, but then something would happen and I was right back where I started.

My hearts desire was to gain forgiveness of my own sins. I knew that securing my forgiveness depended upon me freely forgiving others. After all, it was only fair that Heavenly Father withhold my forgiveness when I had not given it to others. There were many times that this knowledge drove me to despair. The burning question I lived with year after year was “how? How do I forgive others?”

Looking back, I realize that the reason it was so hard for me to forgive others was because I followed the example of my father. He was a very unforgiving man, especially towards his children. Whenever we did anything against his will, he gave us many requirements to follow before he would grant his forgiveness. He believed that working hard in all areas of our lives proved we were truly repentant of the wrong we had committed.

He also kept a record of our mistakes and whenever we repeated the same thing twice, he flung the previous sin back in our faces. Then, we had to start all over, until we truly overcame that sin. Only then could we prove that our repentance was sincere.

I’m not referring to my earthly father, but rather to my Heavenly Father; at least the one I grew up with in the LDS church. This god truly is an unforgiving god! You can read about him on my blog page “The LDS Process of Repentance.” Here, you will find pages of quotes by LDS prophets and apostles, defining the unforgiving god of Mormonism and its savior.

The “Christ” taught in Mormonism requires you to freely forgive everyone, even though he doesn’t hold himself to the same standard: “Wherefore, I say unto you, that ye ought to forgive one another; for he that forgiveth not his brother his trespasses standeth condemned before the Lord; for there remaineth in him the greater sin. I, the Lord, will forgive whom I will forgive, but of you it is required to forgive all men.” (D & C 64:9-10).

In my late twenties I lost faith in the unforgiving god of Mormonism, but my life became no better. I was so miserable I would have committed suicide had I not had my children who needed me. Amazingly, at the age of 36 a miracle happened. The Holy Ghost brought me to faith in the “living” Christ and God adopted me into His eternal family. Through faith, I became God’s dear child and immediately received forgiveness of all my sins.

I was so thankful to be God’s true child that I began pouring over all the love letters He had written for me (found in the Bible). Here, I learned much about my loving, merciful and forgiving Father in Heaven. This God’s love was so great that He sent His Son Jesus to take the punishment that I deserved for my sins. It was at Christ’s Atonement where all my sins had been forgiven—through the shedding of His life’s blood.

From the Apostle Peter I learned that LDS prophets are false. Forgiveness is not gained through obedience–Christ has already gained forgiveness for us over 2000 years ago! It is through faith in Him that we receive the forgiveness He has already won for us: “To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.” (Acts 10:43)

I was especially thrilled when I learned from God’s Word the key to forgiving others. It was the knowledge that all my sins had already been forgiven that unlocked my unforgiving heart. I realized I could afford to forgive others because I had already been so richly blessed with forgiveness.

All I had to do was follow the example of my Father in Heaven and His Son Jesus Christ. After all, the unmerciful servant was expected to forgive those indebted to him only after his entire debt had first been canceled (Matthew 18). It became easy to forgive others when I remembered that every one of my sins had already been forgiven.

Now, whenever I feel someone has treated me unfairly, I turn to scripture as a reminder of my forgiving Father in Heaven’s example: “And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Ephesians 4:32)

And, the example of my Savior: “Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.” (Colossians 3:13)

Is there someone you can’t seem to forgive, especially since they don’t deserve it? The key is to see that all your sins have already been forgiven—even though you don’t deserve it! After all, forgiveness is an inherently “unfair” concept. Thank goodness the true Heavenly Father isn’t fair! Instead of punishing those who deserved it, He punished His Son Jesus instead.

His Son’s blood has covered your every sin—believe it and receive it! Once you do, you truly will be blessed: “Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:7-8 )

Click here to read about the unforgiving nature of the LDS god and savior, as testified by LDS prophets:

(This Post was first written January 29th, 2010, titled: Do You Find it Difficult to Forgive Others?. I have re-posted it for this months Preparing For Exaltation Lesson 34: Forgiving Others; and next months Gospel Principles Chapter 19: Repentance. Page 111 claims:

“We Must Forgive Others. A vital part of repentance is to forgive those who have sinned against us. The Lord will not forgive us unless our hearts are fully cleansed of all hate, bitterness, and bad feelings against other people”)

Link to Gospel Principles Lesson:

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48 Comments

  1. shematwater said,

    September 20, 2010 at 7:13 pm

    Funny, I have never felt God to be unforgiving. In everything I ahve read, and in everything I have experienced I have felt his great love and forgiveness in my life.

    I will admit that he is just in all his dealings, but this does not mean he is unforgiving. It is like the “Love and Logic” parenting counselors say, “Give a large dose of simpathy and then the consequence.” It is the best way for the children to learn.
    In other words, let them know that you love them, and that nothing will change that. But they must accept that their actions carry consequences, and they must deal with them.

    When the leaders of the church talk about forgiveness they are speaking from a legal point of view. We commit a sin we must pay the price before the law can forgive us. As God is the great judge and dispensor of the law it is spoken of as his forgiveness, but it is not his personal feelings towards us.

    Just like any good parent, he shows his sympathy, but he makes us deal with the consequences of our actions. It is not that he has not personally forgiven us, but that the law must be satisfied.

  2. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    September 21, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    When the leaders of the church talk about forgiveness they are speaking from a legal point of view. We commit a sin we must pay the price before the law can forgive us… It is not that he has not personally forgiven us, but that the law must be satisfied.

    Your words are a wonderful example for showing why the LDS church is not considered Christian. You say that we must pay the price before the law can forgive us. But Jesus Christ has already paid the price! Justice has already been satisfied!

    Jesus’ final words on the Cross were “Tetelestai” Or “It is finished.” (John 19:30) This word “Tetelestai” was also written on business documents or receipts in New Testament times to show that a bill had been paid in full!

    Christ’s sacrificial death was sufficient payment for the sins of the world! The price for your sins has already been paid—in full!!! You have been forgiven already. But because you refuse to believe, you reject what Jesus has done for you and you are still “in your sins.” (John 8:24)

    If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9)

    To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.” (Romans 3:26-28)

    I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.” (Isaiah 61:10)

    For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, 7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.” (Romans 4:3-8)

    And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 1:5-6)

  3. shematwater said,

    September 21, 2010 at 2:30 pm

    LDSWOMAN

    D&C 19: 16-19 “For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and FINISHED ME PREPARATIONS UNTO THE CHILDREN OF MEN.

    He did say it was finished, and his part is finished. Our part, however, is not yet finished.

  4. shematwater said,

    September 22, 2010 at 10:38 am

    Also, God is fair, as God is perfectly just, and one cannot be just while being unfair.

    Dueteronomy 32: 4 “He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for ALL HIS WAS ARE JUDGEMENT: a God of truth and without iniquity, JUST AND RIGHT is he.”

    Jeremiah 23: 5 “Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute JUDGEMENT AND JUSTICE in the earth.”

    John 5: 30 ” I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: AND MY JUDGEMENT IS JUST; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.”

    1 John 1: 9 “If we confess our sins, he is FAITHFUL AND JUST TO FORGIVE us our sins, and to dcleanse us from all unrighteousness.”

    I am glad that God is fair and just in all his dealings with his children.

  5. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    September 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm

    Shem,

    If our part is not yet finished, then why does Jesus promise eternal life to all who believe in Him?

    When it comes to dwelling eternally with Heavenly Father, we must be completely clean–100% perfect in God’s sight. When Jesus paid for the sins of the world by offering His body on the Cross, He took away the sins of the world (John 1:29). In regards to eternal life, nothing is left to be done because Jesus did it all!! Because of what my Savior did for the whole world, I can tell any person, no matter what sins they have committed, that their sins have all been forgiven! If that person does not believe in what Jesus did for them, they reject Christ’s precious gift, but that does not negate the fact that their sins have already been paid for with Christ’s blood.

    And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (John 3:14-18)

    The Apostle John also testified of this truth:

    He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

  6. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    September 22, 2010 at 7:05 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    God is fair, as God is perfectly just, and one cannot be just while being unfair.

    God is perfectly Just. He accepted Christ’s body as payment for the sins of the world.

    In doing this, God unfairly punished His perfect and innocent Son for the sins of those who are guilty–all mankind.

    God would be un-Just to demand a second payment for sins that have already been paid for!

    The Apostle Peter explained that “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God” (1 Peter 3:18)

    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” (2 Corinthians 5: 21)

    Jesus is our Substitute!! Not only did He suffer the penalty for our sins, He also grants us His righteousness. Through faith in His blood, we have been perfected forever. (Hebrews 10:10-14)

    Truly unfair, but completely Just.

    Knowing what Jesus has done for me compels me to live a life worthy of Him.

  7. shematwater said,

    September 23, 2010 at 6:28 pm

    LDSWOMAN

    You have contradicted yourself. You said “God is perfectly Just.” Then you said that “God unfairly punished His perfect and innocent Son.”

    If God is perfectly just he cannot be unfair, and thus he could not have un-fairly punished his son. What you have said is thus impossible, and thus could not have happened.

    In all truth it really doesn’t matter. God is perfectly just, and those who have true faith in Christ will be saved, because they will recognized what they must do, and they will do it. Without this faith they would not know what to do, nor would they do it.
    So, Christ suffered so that those with true faith in him will be saved.

    I do believe that

  8. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    September 23, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    You have contradicted yourself. You said “God is perfectly Just.” Then you said that “God unfairly punished His perfect and innocent Son.” If God is perfectly just he cannot be unfair, and thus he could not have un-fairly punished his son. What you have said is thus impossible, and thus could not have happened.

    So then, based on your “logical” argument, does that mean you believe God was being “fair” when He punished His Son Jesus for the sins of the world?

  9. shematwater said,

    September 25, 2010 at 11:16 am

    LDSWOMAN

    If you use the wording you do I would disagree. However, I do not think Christ was being punished.

    It was just for Christ to pay our debt and arrange our redeption, and thus it was fair.
    It was not forced of Christ. Christ willingly excepted the calling as a spirit before the world was ever created, and he willingly submitted himself to the terms of that calling while here on earth.

    To fully understand the whole thing watch the video “The Mediator” again. It explains it all very well.

  10. catzgalore said,

    September 27, 2010 at 1:21 pm

    The LDS point of view is so totally absolutely opposed to the biblical point of view… if you would study ONLY THE BIBLE… you would see it.

    It sure ISN’T fair that Jesus took the punishment for our sins. Just because someone puts themselves in our place willingly doesn’t make it fair. You know those guys on that flight (9/11/2001) that sucessfully diverted it so they wouldn’t crash into another building? They willingly gave their lives so others could live. Soldiers do that ever day…Is that FAIR?? Would their wives, husbands, children, friends think that was fair? Of course not. They would probably be proud of them for standing up, for fighting, but they would never say it was fair.

  11. catzgalore said,

    September 28, 2010 at 10:52 pm

    Just a quote for you today that I really liked…

    True worship = gratitude responding to grace, overwhelmingly so.

  12. shematwater said,

    September 30, 2010 at 1:25 pm

    CATZ

    Your belief is what is unbiblical as you deny the justice of God, as I have explained. The Bible declares God to be perfectly just, and yet you have him asting unjustly as it is the only way you can explain your doctrine. You have contradicted yourself and the Bible by declaring any act of God to be unjust, or unfair.

    As to the men on the Flight you mention, that was not an act of God, and thus does not truly apply to my reasoning. Men are not always just, and their actions can lead to injustice in this life. However, we can always find comfort in the fact that God will justly reward their sacrifice and justly punish those who hijacked the plane.
    However, in your doctrine we have no such comfort, as God is not always just, and so we can never be sure on what side of the scales he will decide.

  13. shematwater said,

    September 30, 2010 at 1:28 pm

    Oh, and by the way: the men and women who gave their lives on that Flight were just. Their action of willingly doing so was a just action.
    It was the action of the Hijackers that was unjust, as it forced the actions of the passengers. As such their lives were taken unjustly.

    However, with Christ, his action in suffering for us was just. Also, the action of the Father of allowing him to do so (not forcing him) was a just action. As such, Christ’s life was not taken unjustly.

  14. catzgalore said,

    September 30, 2010 at 7:09 pm

    Shem, you said…
    Oh, and by the way: the men and women who gave their lives on that Flight were just. Their action of willingly doing so was a just action.
    It was the action of the Hijackers that was unjust, as it forced the actions of the passengers. As such their lives were taken unjustly.

    okay then. As my daddy used to say, that is as clear as mud.

  15. shematwater said,

    October 1, 2010 at 10:39 am

    CATZ

    It is really quite simple.

    The Hijackers were not justified, and so the lives they took were unjustly taken.
    However, the passengers were justified, and so the lives they gave were justly given.

    With Christ, he was justified, and so the life he gave was justly given.
    Also, the Father was justified, and so the life he took was justly taken.

    The difference is that with Christ he willingly submitted to giving his life long before the circumstances required it. Before this Earth was even formed he accepted the calling of Savior.
    The passengers, though they willingly gave their lives, did not submit to such before hand. They were forced into a situation in which they had to make a split second choice.
    Christ chose his circumstances, but the passengers didn’t.

  16. catzgalore said,

    October 1, 2010 at 5:31 pm

    We could go on forever with these word games, Shem. I will always believe that it was not fair that Jesus had to die to pay for my sins. However, I will be forever, eternally grateful that He did that to spare ME. No, He did not have to do that. He died willingly. He suffered willingly for ME…. for sinners! amazing.

  17. catzgalore said,

    October 2, 2010 at 9:29 am

    I realized that we started with “fair” and you ended up with “just”….

    they are not the same.

    Back to “fair”…. from our human point of view, is it FAIR that JESUS had to pay the consequences for OUR sins?

    NO.

  18. shematwater said,

    October 4, 2010 at 6:59 pm

    CATZ

    From my Human point of view, Yes it was fair that Jesus Christ willing chose to pay the debt for our sins. He didn’t have to do it. If he was forced to do it would not been fair. But he was not forced to do it, but willingly chose to do it, and so it was fair.

    As to Fair being different than just, let us look at the thesaurus at Dictionary.com.

    Main Entry: fair
    Part of Speech: adjective
    Definition: impartial, unprejudiced
    Synonyms: (I just list a few) equal, equitable, even-handed, JUST, LAWFUL, legitimate, moderate, objective, principled, proper, reasonable, RIGHTEOUS, trustworthy, VIRTUOUS

    Main Entry: just
    Part of Speech: adjective
    Definition: FAIR, impartial
    Synonyms: equal, equitable, evenhanded, FAIR-MINDED, HONEST, lawful, RIGHTOUS, rightful, trustworthy, VIRTUOUS

    Notice that the one is a synonym of the other. Not only that, the very definition of Just is Fair.

    These two words mean the same thing, and thus one cannot be Just if one is not Fair. Thus, by declaring any action of God to be unfair you have declared it to be unjust, and as such you have denied the Bible and the Justice of God.
    Believe what you will, but you believe in a non-biblical contradiction.

  19. catzgalore said,

    October 5, 2010 at 12:42 am

    oh, you make me weary.
    I wondered if anyone else in the world ever had this discussion, so I googled “just vs fair” and read what I found….

    http://theruosscrew.blogspot.com/2009/06/fair-vs-just.html

    I thought it said it fairly well.

    End of discussion please, I certainly can’t keep up with you. 🙂

  20. shematwater said,

    October 5, 2010 at 11:51 am

    CATZ

    Nice post, but it changes nothing. According to the English language the two terms mean the same thing.

    I will end the discussion, however.

  21. echoechoecho said,

    October 5, 2010 at 12:09 pm

    Shem. You made an excellent point. You said that God is just and fair in dealing with all of his children.

    What is God’s just and fair punishment or penalty for any one of our sins?

  22. shematwater said,

    October 6, 2010 at 8:45 am

    ECHO

    That all depends.

    Now, if you are talking about without the atonement than any single sin would cause us to be cast out of his presence for all time to dwell with Satan.

    However, since Jesus Christ has performed the Atonement and paid the price each sin is measured separately and reward accordingly. Thus, those who live an honorable lie but fail to accept Christ as God and Savior will receive one reward, while those who live truly wicked lives receive another. There would be another reward for those who except Christ but are not faithful to the Gospel, and a fourth for those who are faithful. Another is given to those who commit the unpardonable sin.

    This will keep the justice of God. The penalty for any particular sin is not really possible to state as we do not know all the circumstances surrounding the act, but God does and will take them into account. We can only make general statements.

  23. catzgalore said,

    October 6, 2010 at 10:55 am

    shem said…
    However, since Jesus Christ has performed the Atonement and paid the price…

    Jesus paid the price for what?

  24. echoechoecho said,

    October 6, 2010 at 1:40 pm

    Shem,

    How would you define: someone who lives a “truly wicked” life?
    What reward do the “truly wicked” recieve?

  25. shematwater said,

    October 7, 2010 at 12:47 pm

    ECHO

    A truly wicked life can only really be defined by God. I have ideas, but they could be wrong and I am willing to let God be the judge.
    In general I would say a truly wicked life is one that finds pleasure in commiting sin. Those who commit such sins as fornication, robbery, adultery, idoletry, and other such acts are living wickedly.
    However, all of these acts can be repented of, and thus it is the final state of the soul when this life ends that will determine if a person will be counted among the wicked.
    The only sin (other than the Unpardonable sin of blaspheming the Holy Spirit) that I can say with certainty will garuntee a person is numbered with the wicked is murder, for a murderer hath not Eternal Life (1 John 3: 15).

    Those who are truly wicked, but have not commited the unpardonable sin, will suffer for many years in Outer Darkness, but will eventually be forgiven (as only the one sin is unpardonable) and thus enter the lowest levels of the Fahter’s kingdom.

    CATZ

    He paid the price that we owed the Father for our sin. Because of this he now has the power to set the requirements for our redemption. Justice has been fullfilled for the Father, and so all of us will eventually return to him and receive a portion of his kingdom and glory. However, it will be the word of Christ that determines what portion, and how much we receive, for justice must now be done for him.

  26. echoechoecho said,

    October 7, 2010 at 3:21 pm

    Shem said: “A truly wicked life can only really be defined by God. I have ideas, but they could be wrong and I am willing to let God be the judge.”

    How does God judge (that is: define) the “wicked” in his word when you do a word search on the word “wicked” at biblegateway?

  27. shematwater said,

    October 9, 2010 at 5:20 pm

    ECHO

    God judges on the Heart. The wicked are those who commit grave sins are do not repent. They are they who know the laws of God and willfully transgress those laws.
    To determine a wicked life God will judge on the intent of the person, the level of knowledge they pocess, and severity of the action.
    All men will at some point know God and learn the truth. Those who repent when they learn the truth will not be numbered among the wicked. However, those who have the chance to hear and reject the truth, if their actions are those of wickedness they will be numbered among the wicked.

    When I said I was leaving judgement to God I was stating that I prefer not to give specifics. However, a person who knows God’s law “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery,” and then violates that law and does not repent will be counted among the wicked.
    I cannot judge the level of knowledge required to make this count, and so I stay away form such things as much as possible.

  28. echoechoecho said,

    October 9, 2010 at 7:46 pm

    Thanks for answering my questions.

    The LDS teaches that a person isn’t truly repentant unless he keeps and lives “all” the commandments of the Lord. Which since that is an LDS teaching I feel confident you agree with that.

    And as you explained in your post, those who don’t “repent” are numbered among the wicked and I agree with that.

    Therefore it seems very reasonable to conclude that those LDS who don’t keep all the commandments of the Lord are numbered among the wicked because they aren’t “truly” repentant.

    How would you interpret these verses below with regards to what happens to the unrepentant?

    Romans 2:5-10 “But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
    Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
    But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good,”

    2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.”

  29. shematwater said,

    October 11, 2010 at 12:35 pm

    ECHO

    “The LDS teaches that a person isn’t truly repentant unless he keeps and lives “all” the commandments of the Lord.”

    This is not LDS doctrine, and so I do not agree with it. The doctrine is not that was must keep all, but that we must be constantly trying to keep all.

    Those among the LDS who do commit the sins and do not repent are also among the wicked, yes. But those who commit the sin, but turn and repent and do all in their power to never sin again will not be counted among the wicked.

    I think the two verses you quote are fairly self explanitory.

  30. catzgalore said,

    October 11, 2010 at 8:26 pm

    Here is one of your scriptures:

    “He that repents and does the commandments of the Lord shall be forgiven” (D&C 1:32).

    It doesn’t say TRIES HIS BEST…. it says DOES.

    23 And he commandeth all men that they must repent, and be baptized in his name, having perfect faith in the Holy One of Israel, or they cannot be saved in the kingdom of God. (2 Nephi 9:23)

    It doesn’t say, having as much faith as you can, it says HAVING PERFECT FAITH…

    46 And after that you have received this, if you keep not my commandments you cannot be saved in the kingdom of my Father. (D&C 18:46)

    It doesn’t say “if you do your best to keep my commandments” it says “IF YOU KEEP NOT MY COMMANDMENTS YOU CANNOT BE SAVED”

  31. echoechoecho said,

    October 11, 2010 at 8:47 pm

    Shem said: “This is not LDS doctrine, and so I do not agree with it. The doctrine is not that was must keep all, but that we must be constantly trying to keep all”

    Shem, it IS LDS doctrine, your wrong.

    Elder Kimball said: “Repentance means not only to convict yourselves of the horror of the sin, but to confess it, abandon it, and restore to all who have been damaged to the total extent possible;…” (The Miracle of Forgiveness, p. 200).”

    Trying is Not Sufficient. Nor is repentance complete when one merely tries to abandon sin…”(LDS book: The Miracle of Forgiveness, President Spencer W. Kimball; pages 164-165)

  32. shematwater said,

    October 12, 2010 at 2:35 pm

    It is fun to see people use a few lines and quotes to try and prove something they don’t understand.

    All of these verses and quotes are true, but must be understood in the context of the doctrine they teach.
    It is true that true repentance is the complete stopping of the action. However, it is not necessarily required in this life. It also says this is the Miracle of Forgiveness “It could be weeks, it could be years, it could be centuries before that happy day when you have the positive assurance that the Lord has forgiven you. That depends on your humility, your sincerity, your works, your attitudes.” (pages 324-325)
    How can anyone live centuries in mortality. They can’t. Thus we see that those who do all they can in this life will be given the opportunity to continue that progression until they reach that true state of repentence. For it says in the Book of Mormon that is “by Grace that we are saved after all we can do.”

    It is when we do not try in this life that we loose the opportunity for progression in the next. Which is what is meant in D&C 1: 32 and 18: 36.

    Do not try and tell me doctrine by giving a few quotes. I have lived and studied this doctrine my entire life. I know what it is.

  33. echoechoecho said,

    October 13, 2010 at 2:43 pm

    If Jesus returns to earth tomorrow and ushers in the final judgment, what will happen to those like you who have not fully repented by abandoning all of their sins?

    Can they still progress after the final judgment?

  34. catzgalore said,

    October 13, 2010 at 4:05 pm

    You seem to be saying that one cannot learn what Mormon doctrine really is by simply reading the writings of your leaders past and present or by reading your scriptures. Then how can one really KNOW what the doctrine is??

  35. shematwater said,

    October 15, 2010 at 3:13 pm

    CATZ

    I am saying one cannot truly know the doctrine by reading quotes and lines here and there. One must read all the scriptures and know all the passages regarding a doctrine. Beyond this you must actually live the doctrine to understand it. In all honesty I do not fully understand the significance of the Temple. I can give many quotes, and explain the little knowledge I have. But I have never been to the Temple to receive those ordinances, so no matter how much I read and study I will not understand them until I participate in them. This is what I mean.

    The Book of Mormon says the we are saved by Grace after all we can do. No man can truly end all error and sin in his life. We know this because Christ is the only man who was ever perfect. Thus, if it is after all we can do the doctrine cannot mean the absolute ending of all sin, as it would condemn the entire world. It is very simple.
    Beyond this, I have lived my life as a faithful member of the LDS church. I have read, yes, but it is through my experience that I understand the doctrine, not through my reading. I know that complete repentence is not required in this life, because I have received forgiveness, but I still make mistakes. So what you claim cannot be true, regardless of what is written, because my experience proves it false.

    ECHO

    First of all, the Final Judgement will not take place when Christ returns. When he returns Satan will be bound and Christ will reign personally on the Earth for a thousand years. After this time Satan will be loosed for a little season, following which will be the great battle of Gog and Magog. Once this battle is resolved, then the Final Judgement will be declared and all men will receive their reward.
    What I say from he on out is my words, not to be taken as church doctrine.
    So, speaking of Christ’s second coming, I am in descent shape. Only the truly wicked will be destroyed at his coming. The rest will remain here on Earth. Thus I will have 1000 years work things out. This time is the time I was speaking of at the time given for all men to progress. For all men will live to the age of tree and then be twinkled (die and be resurrected in the twinkling of an eye). We will have Christ on the Earth to assist directly, and with an immortal body will have more power to bind the passions of the flesh. This will also be a time of great work for the dead, allowing them to also progress, be reserrected, return to the Earth and continue to progress until the final judgement.

    Once it is all over and the Final Judgement arrives I do believe that is it. That is why it is called final, for there is no chance afterwards to do anything. At that point our progression will be judged and we will receive a degree of glory. The more we have progressed the greater the glory we will receive, with those who have progressed to the fullest extent receiving a fullness of glory with the Father.

  36. shematwater said,

    October 18, 2010 at 1:11 pm

    I would like to add a little more. I was reading in Mormon Doctrine this weekend and I think it puts it beautifully. I do not have the book on me right now, so I will simply paraphrase.

    Perfection: There are two kinds of Perfection. There is the finite, or mortal perfection, which is progressing to the point where you have no more desire to sin. Noah is described as being perfect, meaning he had reached this point, as did Job. Then there is infinite perfection, or the Perfection of God. This cannot be attained in this life, but can be attained in the next. However, only those who attain the finite perfection in this life will be able to attain the infinite perfection in the next.

    Forgiveness: Forgiveness of sins is granted at any point in a persons life when their actions and desires put them in perfect harmony with the Lord. As such, at the time of Baptism we are granted a remission of our sins, as we must have our lives in harmony with God to be worthy of baptism. Also, every time we partake of the sacrement on the Sabbath we must also have this worthiness, which is why the sacrement is a renewal of the Baptismal covenant. Thus every week we can be granted a forgivenenss of sin. Lastly, if we have the faith and worthiness to be healed through the power of the priesthood we also have our sins forgiven (James 5: 14).
    As long as one is currently worthy to receive any of these three ordinances they have their sins forgiven. So, all we must do is keep ourselves worthy and we will be forgiven of our sins each week.

    Now, outside the book, when people speak to the ending of a practice to gain forgiveness they are talking of those acts that make one unworthy of these ordinances.

  37. echoechoecho said,

    October 18, 2010 at 3:15 pm

    Shem,

    The truly wicked are those who sin. Sin is ungodliness. Unrepentance is ungodliness.
    What you have in the LDS church then is in reality a church full of unrepentant ungodly, truly wicked sinners.

    The Bible teaches us that the unrepentant are to be excommunicated from the church because the unrepentant do not inherit the kingdom of God.

    If a person is unrepentant in this life, they will continue to be unrepentant the moment after they die, don’t kid yourself. God hardens the hearts of those who are unrepentant in this life so that they can no longer be saved.

  38. shematwater said,

    October 21, 2010 at 10:18 am

    ECHO

    The truly wicked are not all who sin. They are those who sin the more grevious sins and are not repentant.
    Wickedness exists in all of us because we are mortal. That does not mean that we are wicked. There is a difference in being wicked and doing wicked.
    Thus, what we have in the LDS church are many great men and women who have failed at times and have done things that are wicked, but who are good people because they are constantly seeking repentance and forgiveness.
    I will agree that many are unrepentant and thus are wicked to a certain extent. Not all of the members will be received into the Kingdom of God. But many will. And those who are not will most likely receive of the Terrestial, but will escape the Telestial, as only the most vile of sinners will be consigned to that glory.

    What you say about the unrepentant is true, and I never once denied this. When we rise in the resurrection we will have the same spirit, and thus the same attitudes we have in this life. Thus the unrepentant will remain unrepentant and will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
    I really don’t know why you said this, as I don’t recall saying anything to the contrary.

  39. echoechoecho said,

    October 21, 2010 at 2:45 pm

    Shem said: “I really don’t know why you said this, as I don’t recall saying anything to the contrary.”
    Not everything I say is intended to contradict what you have said. Sometimes I agree with what you say. 🙂

    Shem said: “but who are good people because they are constantly seeking repentance and forgiveness.”

    Mark 10:18 “Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone.”

  40. shematwater said,

    October 22, 2010 at 11:05 am

    ECHO

    In Mark 10: 17 the man called Christ “Good Master.” This was a title, as indicated by the capitalization. As such, when Christ responds in verse 18 he is not saying that no person in good, in the sense of adjective. He is saying that the title used by the man should only be used in reference to the Father.
    The reason for this is simple. All good things come from the Father. We are given life from the Father. We are sustained in life by the Father. All good knowledge is given to us by the Father. The power to do good is given by the Father. Even the Atonement of Christ comes from the Father. So he is the only rightly called “Good Master.”

    As such people can be rightly described as being good people, but they cannot be called “Good.”

    As to the unrepentant, I have no problem with you not contradicting me and agreeing. However, if that was your intent then why did you through in the phrase “don’t kid yourself.” This gives the indication that something I said led you to think that I disagreed with what you were saying. This is why I questioned your motives, but it was confusing.

  41. echoechoecho said,

    October 22, 2010 at 4:10 pm

    Shem said: “As such people can be rightly described as being good people, but they cannot be called “Good.”

    In my concordance both entries for “good” from verse 17 and 18 are adjectives.

    Jesus clearly, clearly stated that “no one is good-except God alone”

    Romans 3:12 confirms that no one is good but God alone:

    Romans 3:12 “All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

    Sin is not good. Trying is not good. As your leaders said: “trying is not enough” The unrepentant are unrepentant.

    Sin is ungodliness. Trying is ungodliness. Perfection is Godliness.

  42. shematwater said,

    October 25, 2010 at 12:29 pm

    ECHO

    I never said that the words were not adjectives. Good is an adjective, and thus when looking at the original Greek it is easy to get confused. The simple fact is that an adjective can be used as a Title, especially in the English, must also in other languages. Thus it is an adjective, but it is being used as a title in this passage.

    As to Romans, it does not refer to being good, but to one doing good. Just as I said it is possible to do wicked and not be wicked, it is also possible to not do good, but to still be good.
    All sin, and thus all do wickedly. However, all who believe and feel a godly sorrow for the wickedness and strive to correct it are good people.

  43. echoechoecho said,

    October 25, 2010 at 8:05 pm

    Shem said: “As to Romans, it does not refer to being good, but to one doing good.”

    I am not sure I understand what you mean with regards to the Roman’s passage below. What do you think the passage below is referring to exactly? Can you explain that further for me?

    Romans 3:12 “All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.”

  44. shematwater said,

    November 1, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    ECHO

    The passage is refering to ones actions, not ones intent or desire. It says “no one who DOES good” not “no one who DESIRES to do good.”

    In other words that is not a single person who has not sinned, and who does not continue to sin to some degree. However, there are many who seek to rid there lives of sin, who strive with all their soul to do so. These people, even though they do sin, are still good people.

    My point is that Paul in this verse is describing the actions of people, and not the people themselves.

    There is more I could say, but I wish to keep this simple at this time.

  45. echoechoecho said,

    November 3, 2010 at 12:17 am

    Shem,

    Do you ever desire to do evil?

  46. shematwater said,

    November 8, 2010 at 11:45 am

    Again, not a question I would answer in line.

    However, I would clarify what it means to “Desire to do sin.” This speaks of a spiritual desire.

    First, all men are tempted (even Christ), so temptation is not the desire.

    It is also true that the physical body will always want certain things. This is what Paul is describing in Romans 7. In verse 18-19 he states “For I know that in me (that is, in my FLESH,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.”
    Thus, the body can cause certain cravings, and do to the weakness of the mortal soul we frequently succumb. However, it is not out of a desire to sin that we do this, but out of the weakness of our own souls.
    Thus, a person who tries to bind the passions of the body and seeks to follow God is not desiring sin, even if their body is craving it.

    An example of this: A man sees a beautiful woman dressed in a very alluring outfit. This causes his body to become aroused. He has not desired sin, only physically reacted to a physical stimulus.
    Now, if he goes home and takes a cold shower is doing fine.
    However, if he goes home and fanticizes about the women, or tries to pick her up with the intent of satisfying his body then he has desired sin.

    The samething can be said of any sin. The thought will always enter our minds, but it is how was react to that thought that will show a desire to sin or not.

  47. echoechoecho said,

    November 8, 2010 at 4:53 pm

    Our two conversations are overlapping now. I guess it makes sense to discuss this in just one thread instead of two. Lets discuss it in the other thread.

  48. shematwater said,

    November 10, 2010 at 2:14 pm

    Okay


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