The Pre-Existence: How Could a “Loving” God Send One-Third of His Children to Outer Darkness for Eternity?

Today, I feel such an urgency to warn you of the grave danger you are in. Your prophets and apostles have told you that only a handful of people will spend eternity in hell—but they are deadly wrong!!! They declare that even an unbeliever as vile as Hitler will spend eternity in a glorious Kingdom of Heaven. This false teaching exposes that the LDS Church is led by false prophets who are not Christian. A Christian believes what Christ taught—and Jesus very clearly testified that all who die in their sins will dwell eternally in the very same domain as Satan.

Usually when I tell a Mormon about this teaching of Christ, they respond by saying:

Heavenly Father is a loving God—He would never send someone into eternal punishment.

This belief in a “loving” God is expressed by LDS Apostle Dallin Oaks, who recently spoke about the fundamental differences between Christian and LDS beliefs. In speaking of what happens after the Final Judgment, he explains this unique doctrine of Mormonism:

“Finally, our understanding of the purpose of mortal life includes some unique doctrines about what follows mortality. Like other Christians, we believe that when we leave this life, we go to a heaven (paradise) or a hell. But to us this two-part division of the righteous and the wicked is merely temporary while the spirits of the dead await their resurrection and Final Judgment (see Alma 40:11–14). The destinations that follow the Final Judgment are much more diverse, and they stand as evidence of the magnitude of God’s love for His children—all of them… The theology of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ is comprehensive, universal, merciful, and true. Following the necessary experience of mortal life, all sons and daughters of God will ultimately be resurrected and go to a kingdom of glory more wonderful than any mortal can comprehend. With only a few exceptions, even the very wicked will ultimately go to a marvelous—though lesser—kingdom of glory.

Notice how he claims that the various “destinations that follow the Final Judgment… stand as evidence of the magnitude of God’s love for His children—all of them”?

As I read his words—it hit me! The god of Mormonism did NOT show such “love” to ALL of his children. Literally one-third of all your spirit brothers and sisters were kicked out of the Pre-existence and became demon spirits on earth. Heavenly Father permanently punished his own children by throwing them out of his presence forever–never to return! Where do we see the “magnitude of God’s love for these children”? How could a “loving” God send one-third of all his children to an eternity in Hell? Given current estimates of the number of people to be born into this world, that amounts to at least ten billion of God’s children being permanently sentenced to Outer Darkness. Doesn’t this expose as false Elder Oaks statement: “With only a few exceptions, even the very wicked will ultimately go to a marvelous—though lesser—kingdom of glory”?

According to the false LDS teaching regarding the Pre-existence, an entire one-third of all your spirit brothers and sisters simply made one bad choice. They used their agency unwisely and chose to follow Lucifer’s plan instead of God’s. Because of this one mistake, they were doomed to spend eternity in Outer Darkness. Their Heavenly Father didn’t even give them an opportunity to repent:

Because our Heavenly Father chose Jesus Christ to be our Savior, Satan became angry and rebelled. There was war in heaven. Satan and his followers fought against Jesus Christ and His followers… In this great rebellion, Satan and all the spirits who followed him were sent away from the presence of God and cast down from heaven. A third part of the hosts of heaven were punished for following Satan (see D&C 29:36). They were denied the right to receive mortal bodies.” (Gospel Principles, pages 15-16)

I find it appalling that Elder Oaks claims the LDS belief that “even the very wicked will ultimately go to a marvelous—though lesser—kingdom of glory” to be “the restored gospel of Jesus Christ.” Jesus never once taught nor supported this horrendously false teaching. In fact, He declared the exact opposite! Every time Jesus spoke of what happens on the Final Day of Judgment, He clearly testified of a “two-part division of the righteous and the wicked.

While I hate all false teachings, the LDS doctrine that almost all people will go to a Kingdom of Heaven really makes me angry. Because of this false teaching I have numerous loved ones who have no sense of urgency. They are blissfully unaware of the danger they are in. I cringe every time my mother tells me that an LDS acquaintance has passed away and how happy she is that they are now in a much better place. She has no fear of death—she’s LDS and unfortunately believes what her church leaders have told her.

But Mormon prophets are false. By claiming that only a handful of people will spend eternity in Hell, Satan has successfully worked through these false prophets to deceive millions of people. By claiming that God will allow sinful human beings into His Kingdom, Mormons have been blinded to the truth. Many are left with complacency as a way to Heaven, where complacency is rewarded. LDS prophets have removed the ultimate consequence of sin–eternal death (Ezekiel 18:4). Because of this, the urgency to seek out a Savior who has removed every one of your sins has been taken away from you.

Christ clearly taught that having even one sin remaining at death means you will be cursed to spend eternity in Hell with Satan and his demons. There is no more vivid picture of this truth than Christ’s words, recorded in Matthew 25:31-46. He testifies that on the Final Day of Judgment all the nations of the world will be gathered before God. But even before the Judgment begins, God’s angels divide everyone into two groups—a “two-part division of the righteous and the wicked”:

When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left… And these (the wicked) shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (verses 31-33, 46)

According to Christ you are either righteous, or wicked. Those who are placed on Christ’s right are called righteous because they did “good” to others in need. Those on His left are declared “wicked” because they didn’t do “good” to those in need. Notice that those He calls “wicked” aren’t even charged with doing what we humans might call grievous sins like murder or adultery. They are simply accused of committing sins of omission.

Another important point that Christ makes is the length of time that these sinners will spend in Hell—the very same domain as Satan. He uses the word “everlasting” to describe how long they will be there:

Then shall he (Jesus) say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels. (Matthew 25:41)

Jesus condemns them as “cursed” then sends them into everlasting fire to live eternally with Satan and his demons. Jesus clearly taught that the “two-part division of the righteous and the wicked” is NOT temporary. His Judgment and pronouncement happens on the final Day of Judgment. These very words of Christ certainly testify that Jesus does not believe that “even the very wicked will ultimately go to a marvelous—though lesser—kingdom of glory.

Amazingly, the truth is that Heavenly Father is a merciful and loving God. He does want every person to live eternally with Him. He loves us so much that He offered His Son as the final sacrifice for our sins. That’s why He punished Jesus instead of us. Christ’s shed blood truly covers over every one of your sins.

If you have faith in Jesus you are righteous in God’s sight right now—because every one of your sins have been forgiven and removed from you. When you die, you will have no sins to be judged! God’s angels will gather all who have faith in Christ to sit at His right hand—before He even begins judging anyone’s works. Every person who trusts in Christ as their Savior will spend eternity with God in His celestial glory.

Only those who reject this undeserved gift and deny this loving God will spend eternity in Outer Darkness. Unfortunately, that includes every Mormon whose hope for eternal life lies in their ability to qualify for this gift through worthiness.

Link to Dallin Oaks talk, Ensign, January 2011, pages 22-29:

Additional Testimony from Christ, His Apostles and God’s Prophets:

Jesus:

– Matthew 7:13-15; 21-23
– Matthew 13:37-43
– Matthew 22:11-14
– Mark 9:43-48
– Luke 16:19-31
– John 5:28-29
– John 8:24 (Without faith-die in sins)

John the Beloved:

– Revelation 20:10-15
– Revelation 21:7-8 (All liars go to hell)
– Revelation 21:27

The Apostle Peter:

– 1 Peter 4:17-18

The Apostle Paul:

– Romans 2:5-10
– 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

The Prophet Isaiah:

– Isaiah 66:24

The Prophet Daniel:

– Daniel 12:2

The Psalmist:

– Psalm 1:1-6

The Prophet Ezekiel:

– Ezekiel 18:4

The Prophet Malachi:

– Malachi 3:16-4:2

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33 Comments

  1. echoechoecho said,

    April 8, 2011 at 1:27 am

    The verse below explains that “many” will go to outer darkness and “few” will not.

    Mathew 22:13-14 “13Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness ; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

  2. shematwater said,

    April 8, 2011 at 10:27 am

    Let us examine LDS doctrine and consider these verses.

    First, it was stated “Because of this one mistake, they were doomed to spend eternity in Outer Darkness. Their Heavenly Father didn’t even give them an opportunity to repent”
    However, the very quote given to support this (D&C 29: 36) actually proves this wrong. It was not just one simple mistake. It was an ongoing outright rebellion against God in which they attempted to remove our Father from his Throne. It is what amounts to patricide.
    Also, it is described as a war. War is not a single event, but a series of struggles in which two or more opposing sides fight for dominance. This in itself proves that it wasn’t just a single mistake, and that there was time given for repentance.

    With this understanding we see that the great love of God for his spirit children is equal to the great love He has for those who enter mortality. The only ones who are cast into Outer Darkness are those who, like this one third in heaven, are in open and continuous rebellion against God. Only these are cast out.

    Now, continuing on, let us look at Matthew 25.
    Now, you believe this is speaking of the Final Judgment. However, we take a different meaning from the words used.
    First, we read that “When the Son of man shall come in his glory…” Thus this is referring to his second coming. So the question becomes “Is the Final Judgment going to occur at his second coming or at a later time.

    To answer this we turn to Revelation 20
    2. And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
    3. And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,…and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
    7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    We see in these verse a series of events that are to begin at the second coming of Christ when Satan will be bound for a thousand years. After this thousand years Satan will be loosed, there will be one last and final conflict, and after all this comes the final judgment out of the book of life.

    So, according to Revelation the Second Coming is not the Final Judgment, and thus Matthew 25 is not speaking of the Final Judgment. It is speaking of the same thing that Revelation is, or the first and second resurrection (one for the righteous one for the wicked).
    At his coming there will be a division just as Matthew says, but it will not be the Final Judgment, for that comes much later according to Revelation.

    Addressing the subject of the duration spoken of in Matthew as being eternal, again we have a very different understanding of the words; or, more appropriately, the order of the words.
    As it is written, they will be cast into everlasting punishment. However, since the word everlasting comes before the word punishment we can understand it as describing the punishment itself and not as giving an indication of duration.
    Just as a “Torturous Death” does not mean “death by torture,” so to “Everlasting punishment” does not mean “punished everlastingly.”
    Rather, they will be cast into Everlasting Punishment, which means God’s punishment, or a type of punishment that exists in the same manner as God, for he is also described as being Everlasting.
    Now, since no duration of time is given in Matthew we must turn to other scriptures to determine the duration. Again we can turn to Revelation 20
    7. And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
    8. And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
    12. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    Now, notice particularly verse 13. In this verse we read that it is after the thousand years and the last great struggle that death and hell will “deliver up the dead which are in them.” So, we see that the duration of time spent in the punishment mentioned in Matthew is only for the thousand year millennial reign and then for the little season in which Satan is again loosed. After this time all those who were in this punishment (hell) will be delivered to be judged according to their works.

    The last thing I would like to mention is that anyone in the LDS church who does not feel an urgency and a dependency on the Grace of God does not know the true. Eternal Death is to be separated from God. While it is true that only a few will be completely separated from the Godhead, the vast majority of people will be separated from the Father, and a great many (the truly wicked) will also be separated from Christ. They will suffer a kind of spiritual death, though it will not be as complete as those who turn in open rebellion.

  3. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 8, 2011 at 4:28 pm

    Hi, “Shem”. You must be one of the other “Shem’s”— one of his more proficient writers.

    You wrote of several different concepts, so I will respond to each one separately. First, you wrote:

    it was stated “Because of this one mistake, they were doomed to spend eternity in Outer Darkness. Their Heavenly Father didn’t even give them an opportunity to repent”

    However, the very quote given to support this (D&C 29: 36) actually proves this wrong. It was not just one simple mistake. It was an ongoing outright rebellion against God in which they attempted to remove our Father from his Throne. It is what amounts to patricide.”

    The D&C reference does NOT say what you claim it does. Because you claim the verses say something that they don’t, it appears that you are being intentionally deceptive. In the future, if you do not give the actual reference as proof to back up your statement, then I will not approve your comments.

    Here is the D&C reference so we can read what it really says:

    “36And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; 37And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels; 38And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

    What these passages DO say is that the “Devil” rebelled against God. Nowhere does it say that these spirit children had an “ongoing outright rebellion against God”. Nor does it claim that these spirit children “attempted to remove our Father from his Throne.” Instead, the verses state that these children did exactly what I said they did—they used their agency unwisely and followed Lucifer’s plan instead of God’s. It shows that these spirit children were merely tempted by Lucifer—and they were tempted in exactly the same way that Adam was tempted. And yet, Adam was given the opportunity to repent of his sin.

    You wrote:

    With this understanding we see that the great love of God for his spirit children is equal to the great love He has for those who enter mortality. The only ones who are cast into Outer Darkness are those who, like this one third in heaven, are in open and continuous rebellion against God. Only these are cast out.”

    You don’t consider someone like Hitler, who murders and tortures millions of people, to be in “open and continuous rebellion against God”?

    With this definition of sin and rebellion, we can clearly see why Mormonism claims that only a handful will be cast into Outer Darkness. It’s no wonder that so many Mormons are able to fool themselves into believing they are worthy and righteous by keeping God’s commands.

  4. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 9, 2011 at 1:08 pm

    “Shem”, you wrote:

    Now, continuing on, let us look at Matthew 25. Now, you believe this is speaking of the Final Judgment. However, we take a different meaning from the words used. First, we read that “When the Son of man shall come in his glory…” Thus this is referring to his second coming. So the question becomes “Is the Final Judgment going to occur at his second coming or at a later time.

    Matthew 25 cannot refer to anything but the Final Judgment. Even using your own LDS scripture, manuals and doctrine proves this to be true:

    Scripture:

    Look in the LDS KJV explanatory notes/cross references for Matthew 25. Here is proof that the LDS believe these passages are referring to the Final Judgment. The Topical Guide referenced for verse 32, (the very next verse after the one you quote) is the Final Judgment. The passage reads: “ And before him shall be gathered all [a]nations: and he shall [b]separate them one from another, as a [c]shepherd divideth his [d]sheep from the goats:”

    Here are the references for the word [b]separate: “TG Jesus Christ, Judge; Judgment, the Last; Separation

    Gospel Principles Lesson 46:The Final Judgment

    The 2011 Priesthood/Relief Society Lesson uses Matthew 25 to teach about the Final Judgment: “If we are faithful and keep the covenants we have made, the Lord has told us what our judgment will be. He will say unto us, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world” (Matthew 25:34).” (p 273). The LDS KJV cross reference given for the word “inherit” in this passage, is “TG Exaltation; Reward“.

    According to LDS belief, the reward of Exaltation is granted at the Final Judgment–not before.

    Doctrine

    According to the LDS belief in the Millennium, where will Satan be during the Millennium? He will be bound—not yet sent to Outer Darkness! That sentencing does not occur until after the Final Judgment.

    Here is this doctrine in your own words: “We see in these verses a series of events that are to begin at the second coming of Christ when Satan will be bound for a thousand years. After this thousand years Satan will be loosed, there will be one last and final conflict, and after all this comes the final judgment out of the book of life.

    According to the LDS belief in the Millennium, where will the wicked be during the Millennium?

    NOT with Satan. The wicked who will inherit the lowest kingdom of glory do not spend the Millennium bound, in the same domain as Satan. Neither do the Sons of Perdition. Being sent to Outer Darkness to dwell with Satan does not occur until after the Final Judgment:

    The wicked who are living at the time of the Second Coming of the Lord will be destroyed in the flesh. They, along with the wicked who are already dead, will have to wait until the last resurrection. All of the remaining dead will rise to meet God. They will either inherit the telestial kingdom or be cast into outer darkness with Satan (see D&C 76:32–33, 81–112).” (Gospel Principles, page 260)

    Spirit prison is a temporary state in which spirits will be taught the gospel and have the opportunity to repent and accept ordinances of salvation that are performed for them in temples (see D&C 138:30-35). Those who accept the gospel may dwell in paradise until the Resurrection. After they are resurrected and judged, they will receive the degree of glory of which they are worthy. Those who choose not to repent but who are not sons of perdition will remain in spirit prison until the end of the Millennium, when they will be freed from hell and punishment and be resurrected to a telestial glory (see D&C 76:81-85). (Gospel Topics: Hell)

    Looking back at the Matthew 25 passage that I referenced, where does Jesus send those who committed sins of omission? To the very same domain as the Devil!!! In the Judgment that Jesus is speaking of—the Final Judgment; He sends people who did not do “good” into “everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels”:

    Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

    According to both LDS belief and Biblical belief, it is only AFTER the Final Judgment that a person be sentenced to dwell in Outer Darkness–the same domain as Satan. Jesus is clearly speaking of the Final Judgment in Matthew 25.

  5. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 9, 2011 at 2:15 pm

    Shem, again you wrote:

    Addressing the subject of the duration spoken of in Matthew as being eternal, again we have a very different understanding of the words; or, more appropriately, the order of the words. As it is written, they will be cast into everlasting punishment. However, since the word everlasting comes before the word punishment we can understand it as describing the punishment itself and not as giving an indication of duration. Just as a “Torturous Death” does not mean “death by torture,” so to “Everlasting punishment” does not mean “punished everlastingly.” Rather, they will be cast into Everlasting Punishment, which means God’s punishment, or a type of punishment that exists in the same manner as God, for he is also described as being Everlasting.

    Do you think that spending eternity in the same dwelling place as Satan to be “everlasting punishment?” Do you think that would be a temporary thing that could eventually somehow become a “good” thing?

    In Matthew 25, Jesus speaks of “Everlasting punishment”. You use your own reasoning to determine that Jesus didn’t really mean “Everlasting”? Don’t you think it would be wiser to seek out Christ’s definition of His own words?

    What did Jesus mean? Did He really mean that sinners would dwell “forever” with Satan? Does He really claim that the “punishment” would be everlasting?

    When I want to interpret Christ’s words, I turn to ALL of Christ’s words.

    Jesus spoke about just how long and horrible the punishment for sin would last. His Words are recorded in the book of Mark:

    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:43-48)

    Think about Christ’s Words: “the fire that never shall be quenched” “Never” is a long time!!

    The clearest picture that Jesus gives to us of just how horrible and everlasting this punishment will be, is found in Luke 16. He tells us a story about a man who went to Hell and was suffering the torment that Jesus spoke of in Mark—“the fire that never shall be quenched”:

    There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16:19-31)

    It’s imperative to notice that this man’s fate was sealed. His punishment was horrendous and final. I sincerely pray that the rich mans fate does not happen to you.

  6. shematwater said,

    April 10, 2011 at 10:41 am

    First point (post 3)

    You say “Instead, the verses state that these children did exactly what I said they did—they used their agency unwisely and followed Lucifer’s plan instead of God’s.”

    The part that you miss is what Satan’s plan actually was. Read the verse again and you will see it. I will give it here.
    “saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power;”

    Satan’s plan was to have himself replace God as the supreme ruler. So, for anyone to choose to follow his plan is to chose to dethrone God and raise up Satan as God.

    Also, you say that there is no indication of ongoing action, and yet the very term “Rebel” infers an ongoing action. You do not can a person a rebel who acts out only once. It is an ongoing cycle of actions that constitute rebellion. If it was only one action it would not be a rebellion, but a transgression (like Adam).

    As to Hitler, he was not in open rebellion because he did not first have the truth. One cannot be in open rebellion against something that they do now have knowledge of.

    Second Point (post 4)
    Actually, at this time they will be cast out with the devil, into Spirit Prison.
    Read D&C 76: 85 “These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.”

    Alma, speaking of the time between death and Resurrection, said “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil…shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.” (Alma 40: 13)

    The Spirit Prison itself is described as outer darkness, and though it is only temporary it is where Satan will be bound and were the wicked will spend the Millennium.

    Point Three (post 5)
    Just because the fire is not quenched does not mean that the people will always be in it. In these passages we again see a description of the fire, or the punishment, but it does not translate over to a length of time one will be there.
    Just as the Olympic Torch never goes out, but those who carry it only carry it for a short while; so too the fire of hell is never quenched, but those who suffer it need not suffer it for eternity.

    As to the Rich man and Lazarus, I would simple point out that according to LDS doctrine this is speaking about the Spirit World between death and Resurrection and is thus not referring to final judgment. While the Rich man was tormented he will eventually be released and given some degree of glory, again showing the great love and mercy of God.
    As the entire point of this blog was to show how unloving God is according to LDS doctrine I think this should be enough.

  7. rlofferdahl said,

    April 10, 2011 at 8:58 pm

    To all those using the sign-on of “Shematwater”:

    From the variances in grammar, syntax, spelling, manners of speech, expressions, and temperament, it is apparent (and it has been apparent for some time now) that two or more of you are using the same sign-on of “Shematwater.”

    Does each of you believe such an action exhibits an appropriate level of courtesy and respect towards the Christians who are taking their time, and making an effort, to share with one of you what they believe and why they believe it? And to learn from one of you what he believes and why he believes it? Do you believe such an action exemplifies the values of honesty and integrity I’m certain each of you within your Mormon faith professes to uphold? Do you believe it encourages Christians to seriously consider what is being said about the Mormon faith? Does each of you understand how such an action is justifiably interpreted as being somewhat deceptive? How it fails to foster a relationship of trust?

    Personally, I find it somewhat discouraging — almost as discouraging as when a different set of two Mormon elders returns to my home to answer questions I’ve asked of the two previous Mormon elders. But at least in such cases, the two new elders aren’t attempting to pass themselves off as the same two elders from the previous visit.

    You know, it really wouldn’t be so difficult for each of you to sign on individually and take some personal responsibility for what each of you has to say. I’m sure each of you has a reasonable expectation that you are communicating with the same person each time you hear back from someone you have previously communicated with, and who identifies them self as a specific Christian. Why would any of you believe Christians are any less deserving of the same courtesy?

    RLO

  8. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 10, 2011 at 10:27 pm

    Also, since I am the author of this blog and can see the exact IP address for each comment that comes in, it is highly apparent that there are many more “Shem’s” than one.

    What I don’t understand, is “Why?” Why would someone pretend to be someone else?

    It is very difficult to build any kind of trust when it is apparent that the Mormon(s) you are interacting with are intentionally being deceptive.

  9. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 10, 2011 at 11:44 pm

    Shem” (or whoever you are) You wrote:

    Also, you say that there is no indication of ongoing action, and yet the very term “Rebel” infers an ongoing action. You do not can a person a rebel who acts out only once. It is an ongoing cycle of actions that constitute rebellion. If it was only one action it would not be a rebellion, but a transgression (like Adam). As to Hitler, he was not in open rebellion because he did not first have the truth. One cannot be in open rebellion against something that they do now have knowledge of.”

    The truth is that every time a person sins, they “rebel” against God. Sin is open rebellion against God, and every person does this daily.

    But, let’s use your interpretation. Let’s say that the type of rebellion in which God does send someone to Outer Darkness for is an “open rebellion against something that they do…have knowledge of”.

    Now, lets look at what your own scripture and prophets testify about God’s children on earth who are in this type of “open rebellion” against God.

    David A. Bednar claims that probably, almost every Mormon is in open rebellion against God:

    When any of Heavenly Father’s children misuse their physical tabernacles by violating the law of chastity, by using drugs and addictive substances, by disfiguring or defacing themselves, or by worshipping the false idol of body image, whether their own or that of others, Satan is delighted. To those of us who know and understand the plan of salvation, any defiling of the body is rebellion and a denial of our true identity as sons and daughters of God (see Mosiah 2:36–37; D&C 64:34–35). (“Things as They Really Are,” Ensign, Jun 2010, 16–25)

    How many Mormons have violated the law of chastity, broken the Word of Wisdom, or worshiped “the false idol of body image”? He claims that those who commit these sins “know and understand” that they are in open rebellion. And, please read the Mosiah reference he gives:

    “36And now, I say unto you, my brethren, that after ye have known and have been taught all these things, if ye should transgress and go contrary to that which has been spoken, that ye do withdraw yourselves from the Spirit of the Lord, that it may have no place in you to guide you in wisdom’s paths that ye may be blessed, prospered, and preserved— 37I say unto you, that the man that doeth this, the same cometh out in open rebellion against God; therefore he listeth to obey the evil spirit, and becometh an enemy to all righteousness; therefore, the Lord has no place in him, for he dwelleth not in unholy temples.

    My only reason for pointing this out is that it shows your logic to be faulty. There was no difference between God’s children who “rebelled” in the Pre-existence (according to LDS doctrine) and God’s children who “rebelled” while living here on earth. The only difference is seen in the eternal consequences that the LDS god gave to his children in the Pre-existence. These children were never even given a chance to repent.

    No one can honestly make the claim that the god of Mormonism is a loving god because he will only send a handful of his children to Outer Darkness. In truth, in the Pre-existence he already condemned approximately ten billion of his children to spend eternity in Outer Darkness. And, these children did not do anything worse than his children who will spend their lives in open rebellion while living their life in mortality.

  10. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 10, 2011 at 11:50 pm

    “Shem” you wrote:

    Actually, at this time they will be cast out with the devil, into Spirit Prison. Read D&C 76: 85 “These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.” Alma, speaking of the time between death and Resurrection, said “And then shall it come to pass, that the spirits of the wicked, yea, who are evil…shall be cast out into outer darkness; there shall be weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth, and this because of their own iniquity, being led captive by the will of the devil.” (Alma 40: 13) The Spirit Prison itself is described as outer darkness, and though it is only temporary it is where Satan will be bound and were the wicked will spend the Millennium.

    One question. If all the wicked–including Satan, will spend the millennium in the Spirit Prison, where will all the righteous be dwelling?

  11. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 12:12 am

    Shem” you wrote:

    Just because the fire is not quenched does not mean that the people will always be in it. In these passages we again see a description of the fire, or the punishment, but it does not translate over to a length of time one will be there. Just as the Olympic Torch never goes out, but those who carry it only carry it for a short while; so too the fire of hell is never quenched, but those who suffer it need not suffer it for eternity.

    As to the Rich man and Lazarus, I would simple point out that according to LDS doctrine this is speaking about the Spirit World between death and Resurrection and is thus not referring to final judgment. While the Rich man was tormented he will eventually be released and given some degree of glory, again showing the great love and mercy of God. As the entire point of this blog was to show how unloving God is according to LDS doctrine I think this should be enough.”

    Did you not read the words I wrote–the story that your Savior Jesus told you in Luke 16? Were you not persuaded by “one who rose from the dead“?

    Christ’s words about the Rich man and Lazarus cannot be speaking about the LDS belief in a Spirit World between death and Resurrection.

    According to LDS teaching, many righteous Mormons will be going from Spirit Paradise to Spirit Prison to do missionary work. But Jesus claimed that this was not possible—He said the “ great gulf was fixed ”!!!! Christ said that Father Abraham told the rich man that no one could go to where he was, nor leave from where he was:

    And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

    And I love the rich man’s reply. Once he knew that he had no way out of the eternal torment that he was in, he wanted someone to go to his brothers who were still living—to warn them of the danger they were in!

    Shem, that is what I am doing for you, and for all Mormons. You are still alive and I am warning you that you are in serious trouble. There IS an eternal hell and you will go there unless you give up on yourself and believe in your Savior who has already earned your forgiveness.

    And, just like Father Abraham, I implore you to turn to already revealed scripture. If you do not believe the words of Moses and God’s prophets—then you will not believe the very words of Christ. He is your Savior who did rise from the dead:

    Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16:19-31)

  12. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 10:04 am

    To all those who have no clue about personal variance, alterations of circumstances, or an understanding of Literary analysis, let me again (for I have done so before) explain your grievous, and outright insulting mistakes you make concerning me and my posts.

    First, the easy part.
    IP addresses: I am a student. Thus, much of what I do is on school computers (one IP address). I also on occasion use the wireless internet the University has set up (two IP addresses). I have recently gotten internet access at my house (three IP addresses). Also, when I first started posting on these blogs I lived at a different residence with Internet Access (four IP addresses). And I have also used the Public Library here in town (five IP addresses).
    The assumption that a person must use the same computer every time they access the internet is ridiculous. To use such evidence as a basis for any form of opinion is insulting.

    Second, the more difficult, though equally ridiculous:
    Different grammar, spelling, syntax, etc.
    I highly doubt that a trained analyst would find anything more than common personal variance.
    However, I will point out a few things that seem to be absent in all your considerations.
    1. Time given to reply: There are times in which I have only a few minutes in which to type what I want to say, and others in which I have a few hours. Given the different time constraints there is a variation is accuracy when it comes to spelling and grammar. I frequently type to fast and accidentally hit keys that I did not intend to, or hit them in the wrong order, without realizing it.
    2. I am typing, and unless I have time to proof read every comment (which I usually don’t) it is much easier to make spelling and grammar mistakes than if I was writing or talking.
    3. Temperament is affected by many things, and the main one people seem to be disregarding in personal life experience. My life is not always sun and roses, and at time some things affect me differently than at others. Especially when I am stressed out I become fairly sensitive to religious topics, which easily accounts for any changes in the temperament I may show.
    4. The posts of other should also be considered, especially when considering temperament. After all, I am going to be much calmer if engaging in a friendly discussion about religion than I will be when people are insulting me and degrading my faith.

    Now that we are all educated as to some of the variables that need to be considered before we start judging the actions, intentions, and other aspects of a person I hope that we can step away from diversionary tactic and return to the actual discussion (which will be in my next post).

    I will not make another comment concerning this ridiculous and insulting accusation.

  13. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 10:19 am

    Point One (post 9)

    Again you fail to understand. The idea of being in open rebellion and what the Spirits did in the Pre-existence are not the same. You are confusing two different ideas into one point.

    First, there were those who were in open rebellion against God, meaning an ongoing action.
    Then, among those who rebelled, there were those who sought to dethrone our father.
    It is not just being in open rebellion that caused them to be cast out, but the fact that they had sought to bring God down.

    In a like manner, there are those on Earth who are in open rebellion, just as Brother Bednar says. But then there are those who take this rebellion to the point of seeking to destroy the laws of God, which is what the Mosiah quote is talking about.
    Read again in D&C 76 and D&C 132 and you will see the true doctrine of the LDS church.
    76: 31-38 “Thus saith the Lord concerning all those who know my power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy my power—
    They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;
    For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;
    Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come—
    Having denied the Holy Spirit after having received it, and having denied the Only Begotten Son of the Father, having crucified him unto themselves and put him to an open shame.
    These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—
    And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;
    Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.”
    132: 19, 27 “And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed… and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection… then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world…
    The blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, which shall not be forgiven in the world nor out of the world, is in that ye commit murder wherein ye shed innocent blood, and assent unto my death, after ye have received my new and everlasting covenant, saith the Lord God; and he that abideth not this law can in nowise enter into my glory, but shall be damned, saith the Lord.”

    Those spirits who were cast out while in Heaven had all the knowledge, and they sought to cast God down. The only ones in this life who will also be cast out are those who have a similar knowledge (been through the Temple) and then fall to the point of murder and a desire to kill Christ (dethrone him).
    It is the same crime against God that damns all spirits to Hell, whether before this life or during it.

    To simply rebel is not enough. One must seek to destroy God and his kingdom before they will be damned.

  14. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 10:20 am

    Point Two (post 10)

    Question: If all the wicked–including Satan, will spend the millennium in the Spirit Prison, where will all the righteous be dwelling?

    Answer: On this Earth, for Christ has declared that “the meek will inherit the Earth.”

  15. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 10:28 am

    Point Three (Post 11)

    Ah, the Great Gulf. The problem is that at the time this story was told this gulf had not yet been breached, as Christ was the only one who was able to do so and he had not yet gone there.

    John 5: 25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    1 Peter 3: 19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;”

    1 Peter 4: 6 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    Christ has Bridged the Gulf and sent the gospel to those who are in prison, just as He said He would, and just as Peter has taught us.

  16. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 10:34 am

    I know I said I wouldn’t make another comment on the insult, but I have the impression that I need to say one more thing.

    If there is any difference in my posts that is not explained through the variables I have given I can only conclude that at times the Spirit of God is working through me, telling me what to write, and thus giving me a skill beyond what I already have.

  17. catzgalore said,

    April 11, 2011 at 11:47 am

    Shem, I don’t mean to be insulting… it isn’t a bad thing to ask for help. I wouldn’t have been insulted if you had introduced your friend/mentor to us so he/she could make his or her own comments.
    It HAS seemed to me, for a long time, that your posts changed. In the beginning, it all seemed to be from the same person. Then suddenly, after quite awhile of reading your posts, it no longer seemed like you. I think we all noticed it.

    I agree with rlofferdahl:
    From the variances in grammar, syntax, spelling, manners of speech, expressions, and temperament, it is apparent (and it has been apparent for some time now) that two or more of you are using the same sign-on of “Shematwater.”

    But, since without your testimony we cannot prove it one way or another, I will let it go. Praying for whoever you are (God knows!!!)

  18. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 12:19 pm

    Shem”,

    Christ clearly testified in Matthew 25 what will happen on the Final Judgment Day. He declared that all who have any sins remaining will be sent to spend eternity in Hell with Satan and his demons. As well, all who were righteous would be immediately taken to dwell in the Kingdom of Heaven—with God, for eternity.

    But LDS prophets have changed Christ’s meaning of Outer Darkness and Hell whenever it fits their own man-made teachings. They have changed the meaning of “everlasting” and “eternal” to mean something “temporary“—but only when those words are associated with the wicked. Whenever “everlasting” and “eternal” are used with the righteous, then they say “oh yes, I guess those words do mean ‘forever’”.

    I asked you this Question:

    If all the wicked–including Satan, will spend the millennium in the Spirit Prison, where will all the righteous be dwelling?

    You replied: “On this Earth, for Christ has declared that “the meek will inherit the Earth.

    If this is true, then Matthew 25 could ONLY have been referring to the Final Judgment.

    Christ did not tell the righteous that they would be staying “On this Earth” until after some Millennium. He declared that after the Final Judgment described in Matthew 25, the righteous will immediately go with Him–to dwell in the one and only, Kingdom of Heaven.

    Here are Christ’s exact words, told to those who were judged as righteous:

    31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

    34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

    Christ told the righteous to come with Him—and take their inheritance, which is the kingdom of Heaven. This Kingdom is God’s only Kingdom of Heaven. It is where Heavenly Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit–all three, will dwell eternally with those who are righteous. And this Kingdom was prepared for them since the creation of the world.

    Christ’s final words (recorded in Matthew 25) regarding what will happen on the Final Judgment Day were spoken to both the wicked and the righteous. These words describe where each group would immediately be going:

    46 “And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

  19. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 1:05 pm

    Shem”, you wrote:

    Ah, the Great Gulf. The problem is that at the time this story was told this gulf had not yet been breached, as Christ was the only one who was able to do so and he had not yet gone there. John 5: 25 “Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    Christ spoke these words recorded in John 5, at the beginning of His Ministry. He spoke the words in Luke 16 towards the end of His Ministry. Notice here, in John 5, what Jesus said? He said “The hour is coming, and now is”.

    Now” means “right now”! He did not mean three years later—AFTER He would be crucified.

    To understand what Jesus meant in this passage, you need to read the passage “in context”. If you read the passage just before the one you mentioned, you will see what Jesus meant and why He said what He did:

    24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

    The “dead” He is speaking of are the “spiritually” dead. Notice in verse 24, He says that when someone hears God’s Word and comes to faith—they are “passed from death unto life.

    Without faith a person is “dead” spiritually. Then when they hear God’s Word, the Holy Spirit brings them to faith—they are converted. Jesus told Nicodemus just a few chapters before these words that to be saved, he must be “Born again”.

    That is why he said that those who hear the voice of the Son of God shall live. They were dead, but when they heard God’s voice through His Word (Jesus) they came alive—spiritually.

    As a side note, I absolutely love these two passages. Here, Jesus tells us very clearly the only way to gain eternal life–through faith in Him. Look at His words and what He says happens the moment a person comes to faith:

    “24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life.

    Hath” means you have it–right now!!! Everlasting life is obtained the exact moment a person believes in Jesus! Believe it, and receive it!

  20. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 2:13 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    First, there were those who were in open rebellion against God, meaning an ongoing action. Then, among those who rebelled, there were those who sought to dethrone our father. It is not just being in open rebellion that caused them to be cast out, but the fact that they had sought to bring God down.

    I am tired of addressing this point. All we are doing is focusing on false LDS teachings and not about what Jesus did for us on the Cross. The entire purpose of my words in this Blog Post were to get your attention—so that you would realize the danger you are in and perhaps listen to the truth—God’s truth. Obviously, that did not happen.

    I am sorry that I did not do what Paul did when speaking to the Corinthians–focus my witness on Jesus. Paul told the Corinthians that he was “determined” to speak only of “Jesus Christ and Him crucified”:

    “1And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified..”

    And Paul did just that, in the passages right before these words:

    For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:26- 2 Corinthians 2:2)

    I apologize to you for focusing my witness in this Blog Post on the words of false prophets. This experience has been a great reminder that my words should always reflect on what Christ has done for me.

    I praise God for choosing me BECAUSE I am not “wise, mighty or noble.”

    Instead, He chose me because I am “foolish, weak, despised and base”.

    He chooses people like me so that “no flesh should glory in his presence.

    And amazingly, through our faith in Christ, He becomes our Substitute!! Christ took our unrighteousness and in return, God gives us Christ’s “wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption“. I will praise my Lord and Savior Jesus because He was crucified for me—in my place. As my substitute He took the punishment that I deserved. In spite of my sinful life, because Christ is my substitute I get credit for all the righteous works that He did for me–in my place.

    Christ has clearly testified that unless we are as perfect as Heavenly Father Himself, we do not meet God’s demands (Matthew 5:48). Jesus was perfect for us–in our place. He clearly taught that all who reject what He has done for them through unbelief, will still be “in their sins” the moment they die (John 8:24). It is only because of unbelief that on Judgment Day, each and every sin receives the same eternal consequence—everlasting misery in the very same domain as Satan and his demons.

    But praise the Lord, God sent His Son to do for us what we could not do for ourselves. Jesus clearly taught that all who believe in Him, already have everlasting life:

    24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.” (John 5:24)

    That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.” (1 Corinthians 1:31)

  21. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 2:47 pm

    Matthew 25 (post 18)

    Things are not as clear as you claim, as I have shown. You have given nothing except this one chapter and asserted your claim that it speaks of the final judgment. I have given a comparison with other references that give a more detailed prophecy of the events and shown how the meaning of Matthew 25 can, through comparing it to other text in the Bible, be taken to mean only the second coming, and not the Final Judgment.
    I really don’t care that you disagree with what I have said and what I believe, but it does get rather annoying when you use those beliefs as proof of Biblical meaning.

    As to living on this Earth, that is exactly where we will live, because this earth is where God’s kingdom will be. It is as simple as that. This Earth will be glorified with God as its ruler and all the righteous will live on it for all eternity. So, when he says in Matthew that they will enter his Father’s kingdom he is not talking about leaving the Earth, but entering into a new order of living with Christ as the ruler of the Earth.

    Now you also said “They have changed the meaning of “everlasting” and “eternal” to mean something “temporary“—but only when those words are associated with the wicked. Whenever “everlasting” and “eternal” are used with the righteous, then they say “oh yes, I guess those words do mean ‘forever’”.
    This is false, and you should know that. The meaning of the words everlasting and eternal do not change meaning depending of the righteousness of the subject. Just as Eternal or Endless punishment describes the punishment and not the time, so to does Eternal or Everlasting life describe the type of life and not the time spent in it.
    The meaning of the words change only when the way they are used changes, which can be said of hundreds of words in the English language.
    Thus, when it is said that they will dwell with God “for all eternity” we take this to mean a time frame. However, when it says they will have everlasting life we take it to mean the type of life they will enjoy.
    It is not the subject that changes the meaning, but how the word is used.

  22. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 3:09 pm

    The Great Gulf (post 19)

    That is one interpretation of John 5. However, the term “is coming and now is” is a term that has a very different meaning today than it did when the translation was originally made. The meaning of this passage would be that the event would happen in the near future, as contrasted to the phrase in verse 29 (is coming) which means at a distant time.
    So, three years definitely qualifies as being the near future.

    Now, to gain full context we not only need to read the preceding verse, but also those after it.
    Verses 26-29 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
    And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

    It seems clear in verse 26 that Christ is not speaking of spiritual life. Now, verse 28 shows directly that he is speaking of the physically dead as he talks of those who are in the graves (a term used exclusively for physical death). Verse 29 does speak to the final judgment, but let us consider the full context.
    Verse 25 tells us that the Dead will hear the voice of God in the near future.
    Verse 26 does not seem to be discussing spiritual life, but actual life.
    Verse 28 speaks directly of the physically dead.
    Verse 29 says that the dead will be called forth for the final judgment at a distant time.
    So, from analysis we can see that Christ is indeed speaking of the physically dead (those in graves). We can tell that this would happen soon. Verse 29 gives us the reasoning “if you believe they will here the voice of God at the final judgment than why not now?”

    While I am not trying to disprove your beliefs, when I read this same chapter I see a great evidence for the doctrine of the gospel going to the dead immediately after Christ’s crucifixion.

    On a final note, you made no reply to the other verses I gave. Am I to assume that you have no explanation as to their meaning?

  23. shematwater said,

    April 11, 2011 at 3:12 pm

    (post 20)

    If you don’t want to focus the conversation on something you should avoid bringing it up. Also, you should try and be accurate when representing the teachings of another church.

    I will tell you this; as long as what you say is accurate I will leave it alone. It is only when there is error that I will make a comment.

  24. rlofferdahl said,

    April 11, 2011 at 5:07 pm

    Shem writes: “To all those who have no clue … Explain your grievous, and outright insulting mistakes …. ”

    Now, there you go! That’s the old “Shem” we know all too well. Arrogant and condescending.

    Shem writes: “IP addresses: … ”

    Actually, Shem, I’d have to say I’m with you on this one. Multiple IP addresses, alone, do not necessarily imply multiple individuals. No more than a single IP address, alone, necessarily implies a single individual.

    Shem writes: “Second, the more difficult, though equally ridiculous:
    Different grammar, spelling, syntax, etc … ”

    Regarding time constraints: Time constraints simply do not explain, as you would have us believe, the variances so many of us have observed. Time constraints do not change personalities and writing styles.

    Regarding your typing: Occasional typos are one thing. Consistent errors in your spelling and grammar, that all of us are simply too familiar with, are entirely another thing. So stop trying to pass one off as the other.

    Regarding temperament: I’ve been reading your posts for months. Perhaps even more than a year. And I have found them to be consistently arrogant and condescending, sarcastic and demeaning. Then suddenly, out of the blue, appears an eloquent, correctly spelled, grammatically accurate, respectfully worded, and moderately toned post, that sounds nothing, nothing at all in the world like you. And you would still have me believe it is you? Balderdash! Do you really believe me to be so naïve?

    I would second what Catz had to say to you – there is nothing wrong with asking someone else for help. But for others to pass their words off as yours, or for you to take authorship of their words, is simply unconscionable. Other Christians posting on this site may choose to overlook your indiscretion. And overlook it they do, because no one is fooled by it. They know. You know. Your writing companions know. And God knows.

    However as for me, unless you are willing to once and for all come clean, and admit that not all the posts under “shematwater” have been authored by a single person, any further discussion with you on this matter or any matter is out of the question.

  25. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 6:23 pm

    Shem, you wrote:

    If you don’t want to focus the conversation on something you should avoid bringing it up. Also, you should try and be accurate when representing the teachings of another church. I will tell you this; as long as what you say is accurate I will leave it alone. It is only when there is error that I will make a comment.

    OK, now you have gotten my dander up and are being deceitful!

    I did not state LDS doctrine incorrectly!

    I stated that according to LDS doctrine, these two things are true:

    1) The LDS god claims that only a handful of his “children” will be sentenced to Outer Darkness for eternity.

    Mormon prophets claim that this shows their god to be a much more “loving” god than the God worshiped by “other” Christians—those who believe that the Bible teaches that God will sentence unbelievers (sinners) to an eternity in Outer Darkness with Satan.

    I pointed out that the Mormon god HAS ALREADY sentenced more than a handful of his children to Outer Darkness.

    2) In the Pre-existence, the LDS god sentenced over ten billion of his “children” to Outer Darkness for eternity.

    Mormon prophets claim that their god was justified in doing this, because these children used their agency unwisely and chose to follow Lucifer’s plan instead of god’s.

    This accurately portrays LDS teachings. What has been in discussion was my interpretation of the Mormon god’s actions–was he truly a more “loving” god–as Apostle Dallin Oaks claims he is.

    You have tried to prove that somehow these ten billion children were more rebellious than those of god’s children here on earth. According to Mormon beliefs, obviously these children were somehow more “rebellious” than almost every person who will live on this earth. Because of this, you believe that the Mormon god is justified in his “unloving” actions to sentence these of his “children” to hell without the chance to repent of their sin.

    To me, your arguments are irrelevant because the question still stands:

    Does the LDS god’s action of sentencing ten billion of his children to Outer Darkness (in the Pre-Existence) show him to truly be the “loving” god portrayed by LDS prophets?

    I say no!!! No one can claim that the LDS god is a more loving god. His actions in the Pre-existence show that he did not “love” nor treat all his children equally.

  26. catzgalore said,

    April 11, 2011 at 6:29 pm

    Shem said Thus, when it is said that they will dwell with God “for all eternity” we take this to mean a time frame.

    When LDS couples get married “for all eternity” they do not mean a time frame, they mean for all eternity. Or maybe they don’t…I never thought to ask the question, does “for all eternity” mean “for all eternity” or does it mean a time frame? That seems a ridiculous question. Yet another word in the LDS dictionary that means something different depending… on what I do not know.

  27. catzgalore said,

    April 11, 2011 at 6:44 pm

    Actually, Shem, I thank God for you, because it allows us to glorify God, and continually point out His great MERCY and GRACE!!!

    And we also get to expose the truth of LDS doctrines. God is using you!!

  28. echoechoecho said,

    April 11, 2011 at 6:52 pm

    Shem said: “If there is any difference in my posts that is not explained through the variables I have given I can only conclude that at times the Spirit of God is working through me, telling me what to write, and thus giving me a skill beyond what I already have.”

    So there are times when the Spirit of your God is not working through you, telling you what to write, and thus not giving you a skill beyond what you already have. This is made clear by your own words: “at times” when referring to the times the Spirit of your God does do his work through you.

    How can anyone reading this blog now know not to listen to a single word you say? Here’s how… and these words ARE undoubtedly from the Spirit of God…

    1 Corinthians 2:14 “The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

    A man who’s claim is that the Spirit only works through them “at times” rather than all of the time does not have the Spirit of God. Rather, he is a man without the Spirit. That man has the Spirit of the Devil. . A man without the Spirit is spiritually discerned, truth is foolishness to them, to you Shem! The man without the Spirit cannot understand truth. The Spirit of God does not come and go Shem as does the Spirit by which you have been decieved.

    More words from the Spirit of God…

    Romans 8:9 “… And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.”

  29. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 7:39 pm

    “Shem”, you wrote:

    “However, the term “is coming and now is” is a term that has a very different meaning today than it did when the translation was originally made. The meaning of this passage would be that the event would happen in the near future, as contrasted to the phrase in verse 29 (is coming) which means at a distant time.
    So, three years definitely qualifies as being the near future. Now, to gain full context we not only need to read the preceding verse, but also those after it.

    Verses 26-29 “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”

    Wow, I love it when you bring out verses that prove what I have been trying to teach all along!!! “Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming” in which you will face the Final Judgment. Jesus has clearly testified that “the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Somehow you see a connection between Christ’s words here and those previously? I see a huge difference!

    First, Jesus says:

    “24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.”

    When Jesus is referring to those who are being brought to life spiritually—He says:

    The hour is coming, and now is

    When Jesus is speaking of the future—the Final Judgment Day when there are only two categories of people to be judged, He states:

    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

    Notice that Jesus says: for the hour is coming” but He does not add “and now is like He did previously. The Final Judgment was coming, but it would not be “now“.

  30. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 8:48 pm

    Shem, You wrote,

    On a final note, you made no reply to the other verses I gave. Am I to assume that you have no explanation as to their meaning?

    Here are the words you originally wrote:

    “1 Peter 3: 19 “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;” 1 Peter 4: 6 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.”

    “Christ has Bridged the Gulf and sent the gospel to those who are in prison, just as He said He would, and just as Peter has taught us.”

    I did not reply to your words because these passages do not even support LDS teachings.

    Oh, and I love how you have so carefully written your words so as to “imply” that Mormons actually really do believe what Peter wrote. Here is what you wrote: “Christ has Bridged the Gulf and sent the gospel to those who are in prison, just as He said He would, and just as Peter has taught us.

    But that is not what Peter wrote, now is it? Here is what Peter wrote:

    By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

    Peter testified that Jesus Himself went and preached to the spirits in prison. But, that is not what Mormon Prophets claim, now is it? They say that Christ did NOT go to the Spirit Prison Himself. Instead, they say he organized a bunch of Mormons to go to spirit prison for him—so that others could preach to the spirits in prison. Hence, that is why you have so carefully worded your statement.

    We can see very easily from your own words that Mormon prophets actually deny what Peter taught. Peter did not teach us that Christ sent others to preach the gospel to the spirits in prison. Peter taught that Christ went there Himself.

    There is another important aspect to notice from Peter’s words because it shows that Peter did not support the false Mormon teaching regarding preaching to the spirits in prison. LDS doctrine teaches that missionary work is done in spirit prison to reach those who have never had a chance to hear the LDS gospel.

    Here are Peter’s words: “By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.”

    We see in verse 20 that the people that Jesus preached to were from Noah’s time. Noah had already preached to these people for over 100 years!! But they refused to believe him. God was so angry with these people that he destroyed them all with a flood! They already had their chance to repent and turn to God in humility.
    _________________________________________________________

    For anyone who would really like to understand why Christ went to the Spirit Prison after His death, the answer is really awesome. It helps immensely to understand these passages by doing a study of them in Greek–their original language. Translating from one language to another can cause issues because sometimes words just don’t translate well. I used my computer Bible study program (Logos) using the Greek language and dictionary. I focused on the word “preached” in chapter 3 verse 19 and then compared that to the word “preached” in chapter 4 verse 6 (the two passages that “Shem” has given us). It is amazing what I found.

    While both passages use the same English word—”preached“; they are translated from two different Greek words.

    The word “preached” used in the passage telling us that Jesus went to prison to preach to the people of Noah’s time meant:

    To proclaim—like a herald

    What really happened when Jesus went to spirit prison was to publicly proclaim His victory over death and Satan! It was like His victory march in front of those who had lost the battle!! So, preaching to those in hell was not to bring them the gospel message so they could be saved. They had already been given that opportunity when Noah preached the truth to them for over 100 years. They had rejected God’s truth and Noah’s message as God’s prophet.

    Here is the passage where the word “preached” was used just nine verses later:

    “6For this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    It shows that the gospel WAS preached to those who ARE dead. This Greek word for “preached” means to bring the good news and the message of salvation through Christ!

    Here are the two different passages, stating the two different Greek words and the definition from a Greek dictionary:

    1 Peter 3:19 Greek word for preached:
    2784 κηρύσσω [kerusso /kay•roos•so/] 61 occurrences; translates as “preach” 51 times, “publish” five times, “proclaim” twice, “preached + 2258” twice, and “preacher” once. 1 to be a herald, to officiate as a herald. 1A to proclaim after the manner of a herald. 1B always with the suggestion of formality, gravity and an authority which must be listened to and obeyed. 2 to publish, proclaim openly: something which has been done.

    1 Peter 4:6 Greek word for preach:
    “2097 εὐαγγελίζω [euaggelizo /yoo•ang•ghel•id•zo/] 55 occurrences; translates as “preach” 23 times, “preach the Gospel” 22 times, “bring good tidings” twice, “show glad tidings” twice, “bring glad tidings” once, “declare” once, “declare glad tidings” once, and translated miscellaneously three times. 1 to bring good news, to announce glad tidings. used in the OT of any kind of good news. of the joyful tidings of God’s kindness, in particular, of the Messianic blessings. In the NT used especially of the glad tidings of the coming kingdom of God, and of the salvation to be obtained in it through Christ, and of what relates to this salvation.”

    Pretty amazing. I’m so thankful that the Holy Spirit has opened my heart and mind to the truth. I would not want to die, having rejected what Christ did for me.

  31. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    April 11, 2011 at 11:03 pm

    Shem, You wrote,

    Things are not as clear as you claim, as I have shown. You have given nothing except this one chapter and asserted your claim that it speaks of the final judgment. I have given a comparison with other references that give a more detailed prophecy of the events and shown how the meaning of Matthew 25 can, through comparing it to other text in the Bible, be taken to mean only the second coming, and not the Final Judgment.

    I really hate the fact that you seem to have forgotten all the passages I have referenced in our discussions. As well, you didn’t even bother to read what I wrote in my Blog Post. I did NOT give you only one chapter and assert that it alone speaks of the Final Judgment. Instead, I spent numerous hours digging into God’s Word—the Bible, so I could be assured that I know what God wants me to know. And then, I gave you the references to all the places in the Bible which support what Jesus said in Matthew 25. But, it seems that you have missed it. So, I will post it here again, so maybe THIS time you will actually read the words that God wants you to hear today. In my blog post, I gave only the references to the Bible passages that speak of the Final Judgment. But, just in case someone might actually read what God has told them in His Word, I will post the entire Bible study that is referenced in this Blog Post:

    Christ’s Testimony:

    Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.” (Matthew 7:13-15)

    Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” (Matthew 7:21-23)

    And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 8:11-12)

    “He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.” (Matthew 13:37-43)

    And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.” (Matthew 22:11-14)

    “31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:31-46)

    And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.” (Mark 9:43-48)

    There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” (Luke 16:19-31)

    Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29)

    “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

    The Apostle John’s Testimony:

    And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:10-15)

    He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” (Revelation 21:7-8)

    And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb’s book of life.” (Revelation 21:27)

    The Apostle Peter’s Testimony:

    For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:17-18)

    The Apostle Paul’s Testimony:

    But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile” (Romans 2:5-10)

    And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” (2 Thessalonians 1:7-10)

    The Prophet Daniel’s Testimony:

    And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.” (Daniel 12:2)

    The Psalmist’s Testimony:

    Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.” (Psalm 1:1-6)

    The Prophet Isaiah’s Testimony:

    And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.” (Isaiah 66:24)

    The Prophet Ezekiel’s Testimony:

    Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)

    The Prophet Malachi’s Testimony:

    Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another: and the LORD hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the LORD, and that thought upon his name. And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.

    Malachi 4: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.” (Malachi 3:16-4:2)

  32. Kent Appel said,

    August 29, 2011 at 9:21 am

    Doesn’t the Mormon Church also teach that Mormons still have a chance to get right with God after they die if they have made an effort while here on earth? If so, this is also a dangerous doctrine.

    Hebrews 9:27:

    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment

    So not only will we not go to some degree of glory if we are not right with God when we die, we don’t have a chance after we die to get right with God one chance, here on earth, is all we get.

  33. latterdaysaintwoman said,

    August 30, 2011 at 5:24 am

    Kent, yes, LDS prophet’s teach that everyone will have more time to become worthy after they die. Praise the Lord that Jesus and God’s Holy Prophet’s taught us the truth! The Bible clearly teaches that death seals man’s fate. Jesus Himself taught this truth in Luke chapter 16:

    And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. 26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. 27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house: 28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.” Luke 16:22-31 (“Moses and the Prophets” was the phrase that the Jews used for the Old Testament.)

    Proverbs testifed: “When a wicked man dieth, his expectation shall perish: and the hope of unjust men perisheth.” Proverbs 11:7

    Here again is the Hebrew’s passage you mentioned, along with the verse following : “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.” Hebrews 9:27-28

    Speaking of what God requires from us and what happens when we die, Soloman declared: “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.…. 13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” Ecclesiastes 12:7-14

    The Psalmist praised our Lord: “Praise ye the LORD. Praise the LORD, O my soul. 2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. 5 Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God: 6 Which made heaven, and earth, the sea, and all that therein is: which keepeth truth for ever.” Psalm 146:1-6

    The writer of Hebrews testified: “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” Hebrews 10:31

    Jesus explains: “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” John 3:16-18

    I love meditating on God’s Word!


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